Is this war righteous and legal or unjustified and illegal?

wadya think?

In my opinion Saddam's dictature has to be destroyed.
But if iraqian people does not move to throw it away, It is not USA's job to do it
It's been 12 years now that Iraq has not made problems.
We are still waiting for Bu$h to proof Iraq helped Ben Laden for his horrible terrorist attack.

I believe Bush want to do what his father has not been able to : destroy Saddam and get Iraq's petrol control

He does not mind neither for local populations nor for US corps that will be killed by his personal war

For me this war may be justified but it is absolutely illegal

I think the U.N. should hang their heads in shame for stopping what was started 12 years ago. They dilly-dallied then and they are still at it now, when will they learn. This dictator should have been ousted then and the Iraqi people would have been reaping the benefits of their oil income instead of Saddams' war machine.

legal and about time 2,

i'll be back in a few days

mat

Good Luck Matt.
And take care , it's a lunatic they are after.

Probably give him political asylum here anyway.

welcome back Mark - I see you have spruced up the old soapbox - is that a lick of paint on it as well?



I've made my opinions clear on this before, and they haven't changed.

unjustified.


Whenever I want to get to the root of someones motivation for anyting, I ask a simple question.

where is the money?

and that is easy.


Its primarily about oil, and America's wish to ensure the continuity of their supply, if not control it.


Theres also a large portion of distraction - maybe this will distract the American populace from the fact that their ecomony is going down the tubes, and if he starts a war, maybe GWB will go down in the history books for something other than that voting fiasco.


I also think theres a little bit of GWB thinking he owes Saddam one for his Dad.

I think this war is a political game gone wrong. Unjustified, wrong and illegal.

Just my humble opinion.


Stay safe Mat.

I absolutely agree with Claire G and Matthew_McNally

Supracharged, if you'rre going to Iraq, take care of you

[quote name='Supracharged-IS340' date='Mar 17 2003, 08:27 PM']i'll be back in a few days

mat [/quote]
you watch out for yourself mate - who else is going to shout at all the newbies asking questions about the IS430 if anything happens to you?

I'm with Matthew and Claire too.

This is an oil grab, plain and simple.

Yo Mat, make sure you keep your head down bud, one of mates who I've grown up with as been called to Op telic. Good luck buddy

I've been on the fence so long on this there are ridges on my backside.

I have no doubt that Hussein is a nutter that needs to go, but I don't think he is any bigger nutter than GWB, Blair or Chirac.

I'm still not convinced either way, but then again it's a done deal anyway.

Keep your head down Mat

been stood down for a while,was going today. the airspace is locked down

OK well Bush is as mad as mad can be, Blair is his lapdog and Chirac well he just wants to protect his rotten apples.
We were all ways going in 250,000 troops and billions of funds said yes a long time ago.

Matt practice your NBC drills well, and learn to hold your breath for at least 2 days.

The thing that worries me is what if Saddam does stand and fight, they may be crap, but 200,000 troops, 100 tanks, rockets, chemicals all comming at you are going to hit someone.
Look at the Yanks, in conflicts in the last 15 years most casualties have been caused by friendly fire, YIKES.
Also what if we take massive casualies,are we going to use tactical nukes, that would open a middle eastern pandoras.

Are we going to get Iran, Syria, Egypt etc upset.

Peronaly I cant see why with all the advanced sattalite imagine, and intelligence we cant just employ a multi national Military Police force to ensure Iraq stay good, cheaper and less death than war.
Besides my life is too cushy to risk being called up to make iraqi sand castles mixed with blood and not water.

Matt take care if you do go, get yourself an AK47, and a shotgun more reliably and there will be plenty of ammo lying around.

Illegal and unjust.

Will world stability be a result? Yeah right.

I agree that Saddam must be taken out of power, but to destroy so many innocent lives? Apart from living a poor quality of life already because of him, a lot are going to suffer even more as a result of this. It's not only the amount of people killed as a result of the bombs, it's the knock-on effect that lasts for years afterwards.

They should have taken him and his cronies out when it was more justifiable all those years ago.

Outside of the destruction in Iraq, there are already enough organisations around the world that already touch on fanatical and this will push them over the edge. These WILL retaliate in the name of 'attacks on Iraq'.

The worst thing is, the terrorists won't target Bush, Blair or military installations because they're protected. We're the ones who will be targeted on the airlines we fly on and the underground we travel on. We're the ones that will be made to suffer as a consequence of this totally irrational war. Iraqi people mostly, and the west for our aggression.

What really bothers me is that the rest of the UN are committed if Hussein launches a chemical attack. I don't believe he is stupid enough to do this, but if chemicals do "appear" to be used then it could be argued that the war then is justifiable. Would anyone fabricate the use of chemicals as an excuse to justify there actions in a "told you so" scenario? That's never happened before has it...? If this was the case and Iraq was accused of using them, after that point he probably would if the world is convinced he is using them anyway. The long term effects of that could be felt in many countries with atmospheric spread, apart from the poor people affected directly. (Remember agent Orange? People are still affected even now.)

The possibilities are endless. The consequences could be worse.

I don't know what the answer is, but it isn't a war.

Take care Mat.

[quote name='Supracharged-IS340' date='Mar 18 2003, 08:42 PM']been stood down for a while,was going today. the airspace is locked down [/quote]
Good news buddy for the time being............

irregardless of your individual opinions the armed forces of the UK are putting their lives on the line just like they have done so many times in previous conflicts...your grievances are with the politicians who put them there.

support our forces as they are the very best of British.

and deepest sympathies to the families of the Royal Marines who lost their lives in Kuwait.

Per Mare Per Terra

Amen

i think its just for the oil and for revenge for what his father didnt do. thats what i think is George's motives for the war. blair is jus tryin to be georges friend and going along with whatever he says.

saddam has killed his own ppl with chemical weapons before, its disgusting and so sad to see the pictures of ppl lying on the floor with their children looking mutated because of him. if he is left to live he will probably do it again.

dunno if they done right thing,guess we'll find out when its over.

personaly i dnt trust saddam, bush or blair.

my fear is that all troops may be walking into a trap in Baghdad..........................i know he has nothing compared to British and US forces but somehow i dunno if he's making it to easy for them to get into baghdad with the ground forces so he can drop the chemicals/biologicals etc.................. he has no chance of winning but the guy is sick and he will kill anyone including himself.

i hope im wrong about him dropping chemicals etc and i hope the finish him quick so the ppl he has been torturing can return to normal lives and make something of them.

G.O.D help everyone involved
and sympathy for families of troops fighting.

mitch

supercharged IS430- GOODLUCK mate, lay low and see you soon

I agree with Bash83, full support to our services out there and to their families back here.
I am uneasy about going in so soon as innocent people are at risk of being killed. On the other half one hears that a large majority of Iraq want Saddam out and relish him being overthown.
There is the other strain of thought that there has always been problems in the middle east and is it up to USA and UK to sort it out? I think not as where will it stop?
Lets hope that it will soon be settled without too much loss of life on either side. Its Saddam everyone is after.

hehehehhe my regiments on sky news right now...............go on boys(assault engineers)

[img]http://www.armouredengineer.force9.co.uk/engineer/chiefavlb05.jpg[/img]

bridgelayer(this pic when we came back from Gulf war 1)

[img]http://www.armouredengineer.force9.co.uk/chavre1a.jpg[/img]

assault tank(this pic from Kosovo)

these pics arnt from tv, just so you get the jist of the things to look for:geek:

[quote name='Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon' date='10:30am this morning....']Oil for aid[/quote]


Says it all really. Sadly, what this war is all about.

My sympathies to the families of the Royal Marines, and I hope this war is over soon.

i wish people would stop bleeting on about the oil crap.............

the only reason the bleeding french have been a pain in the ***** is oil....no one else, i think it may have something to do with the $40 billion contract they had with iraq......

oh lets not forget the $10million contract for the repair and maintainence of the iraqi mirage jets buy the french govt

this is about eventual freedom of an repressed state, stop all getting on yur high horses, next you will be saying you all recycle plastic and stuff

and why is there already the RFA Sir Galahad waiting to drop supplys(humanitarian) at the port....but cannot get in cos the iraqis have mined it...not also forgetting the hospital ships that are queing up to get in.......the fact that every oilwell has been booby trapped

id worry about the motive of Turkeys sudden involvement rather than pretend to understand the British and American involvement

Sorry to disagree Mat, it's my opinon, but if there was NO oil in Iraq, there would be NO war.

I'm not going to go all political, I know Saddam is a tyrannical oppressive murdering dictator, but who'd give a sod if he didn't have oil, or the money it generates to support terrorism.

Re-read my post. I didn't say it, Geoff Hoon did. "Oil for aid"

British troops stay safe in Iraq.

"I know Saddam is a tyrannical oppressive murdering dictator, but who'd give a sod if he didn't have oil, or the money it generates to support terrorism."


that may very well be true. it angers me that the reasons for this action sometimes get placed into one word..oil.......

there is far more to it than that, and in a way your comment above is correct, but i think the area aswell that if Iraq is a stabelized country then hopefully the palastine/isreal situation will eventually be solved.

and i also agree and belive that possibly,iraq is being used as an example.

but all these people that say iraqi people are being killed needlessly, imagine how many more would be killed in secret, and i think the coalition has now proved that they are doing everything they can to eliminate colataral damage`

i often wonder if when i was there 12 years ago..and was a little anoyed that we had to stop and come home......what would people have thought then if we had carried on......what about all the people that were killed since that last gulf war...what if

I think one of the problems is that the media aren't letting us know enough of the atrocities happening because of this dictatorship.

We all have an idea, but not enough is reported. We are living cushy lives here and because we don't see what's going on, it's too easy to be opinionated on other issues.

I'm sure if we knew more about this then opinion may change.

once again the americans have ****** up

last gulf war they "accidently" attacked 2 warrior fighting vehicles, and this time they have"accidently" shot down a british tornado with a patriot,........i am very very very angry

this is why i dont like working with american forces........they are to un-predictable

Hi
Watch your 6 Mat and take care about yourself.
I know your bridgelayer, made my national service in the Genie, with the same stuff

Unjustified war to seek fresh petrol sources, passing trought the UN decision, Saddham had to be down, but not the Iraki people.
How can the americans can pretend to have real accuracy weapons if they're able to shot down a Tornado by a Patriot…?

and bomb the Canadiens in Afganistan....oooooops didnt see those 30 guys there

ive worked with the french Genie, quite a few years ago now, will try and remember which lot it was

A question for Mat -

I don't mean to criticise or be personal, but I was wondering what you made of the public reaction?

Is it important to have people's backing or is it a case of heads down get on with the job in hand?

I was just curious....

once your doing the job, public opinion isnt greatly noticed, the lack of it is though......the negative moods is qickley felt, however, we have a job to do, and shouldnt allow public opinion affect our focus on the job.

sometimes(90%) public opinion is slightly misguided, one advantage of being in the forces in situations like there are at present is, we are also human, and have opinions, however we also get to hear the military prospective to a mission aswell as the humanitarian reasons......couple that with a personal opinion and sometimes we are in a good possition to determin the rights and wrongs of a situation, in a balanced view.......

i am fortunate/unfortunate to have been in several conflicts and been involved in humanitarian missions such as bosnia and kosovo, so i can see what happens when THINGS ARE NOT DONE!!!!......and thats why i fully agree with whats being done at the moment


i just dont agree with the loose trigger fingers the US guys have

Cheers,

I guess we just all hope there was a better way.......

Just watching the news........ Iraq have US Prisoners of War...........

During the last Gulf War I was with the 11 Armoured Workshops (which became part of the 7th Armoured Brigade). I was a "Pack Rat" which bascially meant I spent my time repairing heavy armoured vehicles (Challenger MkI's mainly).

I know the feeling of going into a war zone. You become almost detached from yourself. Very strange sensation. I don't mind admitting that I was very apprehensive before I went out. Once there though you just seem to accept that you are there to do a job and the butterflies just disappear.

As it happened the ground war was little more than a formality last time and the worst thing I encountered was driving past an Iraqi convoy which had just been visited by a couple of A10's not a few hours earlier. A real eye opener I can tell you.

Anyway, whether it's right or wrong no longer matters to me. Once British troops are involved then I care not anymore. I think only of them, their families and loved ones. They do an absolutely superb job and we should all be proud of them. Don't blame them for the politics that got them there.

I wish you all the best Mat and I'll shout you a beer when we meet

You're right Mr Torrent. Politics aside now, our servicemen out there are doing a tough job, risking and losing lives. I am grateful to them, and relieved that I am not there.

Thank you to them.