Maybe you keep pulling out infront of traffic and don't notice the carnage you've caused in the rearview mirror. I guess all those road testers who've made comment on the 1st gear issue can't drive either? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Maybe you keep pulling out infront of traffic and don't notice the carnage you've caused in the rearview mirror. I guess all those road testers who've made comment on the 1st gear issue can't drive either? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
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I dont know about London traffic or where you live but here it´s a np. Not even in urban Italy (Firenze) it´s a problem and I can hardly think traffic in London is worse then there The trick is to either a) Start on 1st gear and then quickly put in 2nd while revving at the same time or start with 2nd gear. What you decide to do is dependent on your weight (load), the road itself (conditions, down- or uphill and traffic situation.

I admit it took a month or so to get used to it.

This thread has gone way
The posted question was

Although there appears to be a concensus that the IS220D is likely to be phased out, it's unlikely that Lexus will confirm this anytime soon or whether this will be before or after the planned 2009 model facelift for the second generation IS. Anyone got any info from the 'inside'?.

Consensus ? I've only heard 1 or 2 people in this thread mention that the IS 220D is likely to be phased out... since when is that enough to make up a consensus?

If the IS 220D is removed from the range Lexus will loose too many customers across Europe...

I believe Lexus have already made the decision and have stated it albeit indirectly in their forward plans for petrol & hybrid models as opposed to pursuing the diesel route, so I believe it's inevitable that it will be phased out. The only question that remains unanswered is when.

This was Lexus official statement less than 3 years ago:



Until Lexus releases another official statement to state otherwise, I will believe diesel technology will still be used to attract the corporate sector and compact executive sector of the market in Europe.

The IS220d has not captured the share of the diesel compac exec market Lexus wanted. Petrol and diesel is on its way out. Alternative fuel cells are needed. As Tango says, the hybrid is Lexus' next move.

Hybrid is great idea but they need to stop putting it in a 4.0L V6/V8 Petrol Engine
as it is a bit of a waste of time
Will they put the Hybrid Lexus Technology in a 2.5L V6 i doubt it

Lexus are at least three years behind German diesel technology and I don't believe they'll waste R & D money attempting to catch up. Putting a slightly modded diesel engine from the Toyota Avensis into the second generation IS bodyshell was a blatant attempt to capture some of the European diesel fleet market. To some extent they succeeded, as there are certainly more 220D's on the road than 250's in the UK, but it was a poor response to the German dominance of that particular sector and sales of the 220D are tailing off now people realise the shortcomings of its engine.

BMW have now announced plans to release their diesel variants in the US market, a wise move now the Americans have woken up to the fact that the gas guzzlers have a limited future. Had Lexus had the foresight to develop a diesel engine worthy of the Lexus brand name, they would have had the opportunity to compete with BMW in this their biggest existing marketplace, but with their only diesel being an old design 2.2, no chance. European sales are relatively insignificant to Lexus, the only saviour to any kind of Lexus diesel technology would be a commitment to develop a new engine for the US market, but with the lead the German manufacturers have I'd say Lexus will cut their losses and look to the future with hybrid.

I do believe the diesel engines on the German cars are more advanced, but I think the main problem with the 220D as well as the 250 is that the car is just too heavy. This inevitably hinders the performance, economy and CO2 emissions of the model compared to other cars in the same class.

The same could be said if you compare the IS 250 with the 325i. The 325i has the bigger engine, gets to 60 in over a second quicker than the 250, and still returns a combined MPG of 39, where as the 250 has a combined MPG of 29 with a smaller engine and worse performance. Does this mean Lexus will drop the 2.5l V6 as well? Doubt it, as well as I doubt it will drop the diesel version (It might have not met their expectations, but it has certainly boosted the sales of the IS considerably). Only an effective hybrid alternative would make both the petrol and diesel obsolete, however I don't see this happening anytime soon...

no way this gen IS will be hybrid. Now it has 1,7 of weight, with hybrid it would have close to 2 tonnes...

oh yes, I forgot to mention that there is always chain accident behind me

the 39 mpg average is just a dream in bmw.
If you check spritmonitor.de, 325i are light below 10l/100km (~29mpg).
IS250 are ~30mpg.

Yes, but the Beemer petrol competition in the North American market is the IS350 and the power to weight ratio is more than adequate. Even so the 250 AWD and 250 RWD sells equally well in North America, so in answer to your question there's no way Lexus will drop the 2.5 V6. However, the 220D has not been, or is planned to be marketed there, and I believe the same can be said of Japan, the rest of Asia and South Africa. It's only Europe that has the mongrel, and that was purely to satisfy Company Accountants requirements for fleet cars.

what were the lexus target numbers and what is the reality?

I don't know or particularly care.

To try and bring the post back on topic and to answer the original question I've found the following planned 2009 updates. This was from an American site, but presumably Europe will not be too different and may even include the 220D

-New Grille
-New front & rear bumpers
-Integrated turn signals in the door mirrors
-Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management(VDIM) now standard on the IS 250
-New color: Truffle Mica
-Discontinued color: Desert Sage Metallic
-New woodgrain trim: Dark grey bird's eye maple
-Discontinued woodgrain trim: Auburn bird's eye maple
-New 17" & 18" wheels
-Wallet Smart Key standard on IS 350, optional on IS 250

In the UK (and possibly Europe), the idea of the IS220d was to get company diesel drivers out of their VAG/BMW/Merc diesel cars and into the IS220d, which I think has worked. You will find (in the UK at least) the 250's are driven by the private buyer where as you will find a company car driver behind the wheel of a 220d.

how do you know that lexus is insatisfied with the sales then?

When did I ever say that? I even acknowledged there's probably more 220D's on the road than 250's in the UK/Europe, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the planet, and North America in particular.

From your words I feel that you think about 220d, that this model is bad and therefore not succesfull.

If it is not correct, then sorry.

Lexus does not need a diesel for the American or Asian market because there is no need for one, simple as that. They already sell really well over there. They however had very low sales in Europe before the diesel engine came in. They need a diesel powered car for the European market, and although you are right stating that Europe is not Lexus biggest market by far, I think it is much more than just a drop in the ocean. What you are trying to say is that Lexus should give up in Europe (by dropping the diesel) and concentrate where it's already strong (America and Asia). However I think their intentions (outlined in the official statement I posted earlier) are to try and grow in Europe which has the potential to be a huge market for Lexus, and the only way to do that nowadays is to have a diesel alternative within your lineup.

My point was that they need a better diesel engine and not old technology that is shared with a load of other models from Toyota. Had they had the foresight to develop a decent diesel engine they could be competing with BMW in the North American marketplace. Perhaps it's expecting too much for Lexus to have foreseen the rise in energy prices that have changed the American minds with regards to diesel, but the fact is they cannot compete with the Germans with what they have available. Looks like they'll have to be content with struggling to compete in the European market, which admittedly has the potential to be as big as North America, but based on the 220D????. I don't think so.

In 2006, the diesel IS 220d accounted for the largest sales increases for Lexus in the U.K but this, as I said is a drop in the ocean compared with the global market when you consider the 220D is a fraction of the total (shown on the following chart) for the UK which is the third biggest sales region. In 2007, Lexus vehicles in the emerging markets of Russia and China saw high demand, with higher per-dealership sales than any other market, but again, not based on diesel sales.
Here...gain some perspective ...

The 220D has a decent engine, agree it's not as efficient as the Germans, but nevertheless is still a decent engine (there is even a thread here discussing how the Sport version feels quicker than the 250). And again, the weight factor has a major influence and has little to do with the engine itself. You have to remember this is Lexus first attempt at a diesel car. No one expected it to be perfect. But it is a good alternative to the German competition (otherwise me and others in this forum wouldn't have bought it obviously). But you seem to think that because they didn't get it perfectly right with the 220D they should give up after the first attempt, point with which I totally disagree (You even said they would drop the diesel technology next year, which doesn't make sense at all). And as you said, the European market has the potential to be as big as the North American market, and we all know to do well in Europe nowadays you will need a diesel car. Should Lexus drop the diesel version, they would immediately loose a lot of sales in Europe and any potential expansion of the brand in this continent. Doesn't seem like a smart move to me...

Where have I said that??? I merely stated the IS220D would be eventually phased out, but didn't know when, so I asked Lexus GB the question (the reply is below).

I actually said the best result would be for Lexus to develop a new decent diesel engine to compete with the Germans as their existing design is about three years behind.

Their reply is to some extent ambiguous, but for what it's worth.....

tango,you refer to the is220d engine technology as being three years behind the germans yet when i purchased my car i could not buy a common rail diesel with an nox particle filter at all from audi.

In France, Lexus has clearly missed the fleet market of company cars, mainly because its high CO² emmisson level (195g/km) which leads to very high costs when compared to a BMW 320d.

For the first year, here are the significant differences:



At the end of the first year, that makes quite a huge difference between the two cars.

The ECO Bonus/malus is 200,00 € Bonus (you actually get money back) for the BMW and a 'malus' of 750 € for the Lexus, at that point there is already a 950.00 € difference.
Then the yearly tax (TVTS) based on CO² emission level. 640 € for the BMW and 2925 € for the Lexus. Then the gas mileage is really bad for the Lexus as well. So at the bottom of the spreadsheet, the Lexus clearly lost the war.

your figures are wrong, the 220 is 168g/km,back to the drawing board no revolution today. :

Yes it's not bad at reducing nitrogen oxides and particulate matter. It's probably also cleaner than some of the Mercedes too...is that why you bought it? If so you should have gone for the even cleaner BMW diesel engine.

it is a tragedy that some politic d---heads measure the ecology of the engine only regarding with the CO2 - jesus
In europe, producers still produce euro IV engines (say PSA with 2.0hdi in new C5) while toyota D4D 180k is on the market more than 4 years and it is euro V compliant.
When you walk in the city, CO2 won't harm you at all, while nitro oxides etc and particles will kill you.

This is makes very clear, why EU has problems and will have problems

That reminds me of the email I received from Lexus some years ago saying that they weren't going to be producing a diesel IS!!

could'nt agree more,nothing polluting about co2 trees love it. its merely a convenient excuse to further tax the already burdened tax payer.we get no incentive for buying a vehicle that reduces nox which is a real benefit to health.i don't know what the political situation is like in slovakia but here we have the biggest bunch of w*****s the world has ever seen as a government.

No unfortunately my figures are correct.



In a fisrt phase, the IS220d came in two flavors, standard gearbox ratio = 168g/km and pack Sport gearbox ratio = 195g/km.

Then for a number of reasons (some of them being customers complaining) , Lexus decided to go only for the sport type package with the "short" gearbox ratio and therefore associated with the 195 g/km emission level.

http://www.lexus.fr/Images/Specs_et_Equipe...m602-793185.pdf

I fully agree with this statement, politics are clearly pushing Diesel engines forward which is a major mistake for our future.

just trying to point out the inaccuracies in your post.as to the bmw i felt that it was poor value for money.btw have you considered my offer of £25 for the"mongrel" discs.

my apologies ted,i did'nt realise that you were refering to the sport spec.is this situation unique to france?

Same thing in Croatia,
here you can buy standard gearbox ratio only in plain IS, if you decide for luxury or sport package it will always come with sport gearbox ratio (in fact it is rear axle ratio).

same in Slovakia

after 8 years of right (you say "democratic"?) situated coalition, in 2006 our "smarter" part of nation decided that the socialists are better, so now we are getting in deeper sh*it then ever :-(