I had an IS250 auto yesterday as a courtesy car. I was looking forward to the extra power. Has anyone else noticed that the IS220d Sport actually seems faster than the IS250 auto?! I know on paper it has less power and takes longer to 60 but driving both in real life the diesel seems faster. Perhaps its because of the torque? Put your foot down in the IS250 and it just drops a gear, revs, growls and feels guttless. Perhaps its just me...

I think you're probably right, I've not driven the IS220d, but have done other diesels and they do "feel" a little quicker because of the extra mid-range punch from the higher torque.

It's also partly due to the fact the petrol will have more linear and progressive power building up to higher revs, whereas the diesel chucks it all in in one big lump and then runs out of breath much quicker...........

I mentioned this in the "New Model IS 220d" thread only a couple of days ago. Naturally I was told I was "misguided" and talking "absolute rubbish". I'm sure you will, too. SOP on this forum.

ooooh I feel this could be the latest thread to watch!!!

Definitely you:did you leave the foot-break on!
Tel

Well it doesn't provide the grunt when you need it coming out of junctions! Had me worried a few times with a 220D courtesy car, and before the oilers tell me I have to adapt my driving style, I've previously put 138,000 miles on a turbo diesel saloon.
But yes, ignore the published facts, of course the diesel is a lot quicker than the 250 petrol. There, now do you feel better

Lol! Yeah sorry if I went a bit "pro-diesel" for a bit but what I meant was that while the "FEEL" quicker, in reality they aren't.

In a short 5 second overtaking manouvre they probably are quicker but in real terms they're not - it's simply that split second punch that pushes you back in your seat that makes it feel like the car is faster but in reality the petrol is much better.

The problem is that the petrol is so refined in its power delivery that you notice it less - it's more a case of building the speed so effortlessly and then not realising you were doing 120mph (which is quite easily done in the IS250 auto, obviously on unrestricted roads )

I'd never buy a diesel because I hate the way it's so hard to find the power in the range - one second there's tons of it, the next there isn't any left, but I can totally understand why people think they're quicker than petrols..........

I think that's enough back-tracking for now, but even though it's slow and uneconomical, I'd much rather drive my petrol IS200 than any diesel

So from this discussion what you really need is an IS220D auto.... strange Lexus didn't do this already...

My Brother drives a Merc 4X4 (M 320D auto 3lt turbo diesel with 220bhp with 500+nm of torque) when you floor that it pushes you almost into the back seats, from 0 -50 mph it's a 2 tonne monster but progress from there up ain't nothing exciting...

Yeah I agree. If you hold the revs 1.5-2k, put it into first, floor it and then change to second when it hits 4k then it takes off pretty quick, but... if u start off with the revs lower or let them drop then it bogs down, you go no where and die....



I wonder if there are published figures for 50-70 etc somewhere.



Hmmmm yeah thats what I wanted. It's a shame they don't do one.

Perhaps I'll just have to get an ISF next then there'll be enough power and torque....

This is from a Yahoo car review of the IS 220D:



And thats a review of the normal 220D, not the Sport version with the improved gear ratio. So you are not the only one that feels that the 220D is quicker than the 250...

The published figures for the Sport IS220D in comparison to the IS250 Auto show the 250 to be half a second quicker 0-62 mph, and the IS250 Manual to be 0.8 secs quicker. The IS220D is also 7 mph slower on top speed. http://www.lexus.co.uk/range/is/specifications/index.aspx So much for the 'seat of pants' dynometer. Noisier probably does feel quicker.

Final drive ratio and bhp:

Sport 220D - 3.2 and 175 bhp@3,600 rpm
Auto 250 - 3.91 and 204 bhp@6,400 rpm

So even with the much lower ratio of its final drive the IS220D is slower than the IS250 Auto and Manual.

I posted something similar when I first drove the 2 variants nearly 2.5 years ago. Round a twisty track the 220d could edge over a 250 it 'cos of the extra torque. On long straights however the 250 would win due to the extra topspeed/higher revs/more BHP further up the rev band of the petrol as opposed to the narrow power band of the diesel...

The very high gearing of gears 1 and 2 in the diesel make it a bit of a nonsense. Most diesels are like this, but the IS seems to show it more...

I also think that due to the narrow power band of the diesel, the non-sport oiler might be faster coming out of bends where it stays in the "Torquey sweet Spot" a tad longer. From a standing start the sport diesel would be quicker!!

And Tango - yes indeed you do need a new fresh driving style for the 220d, regardless of how many miles you've covered in a diesel previously! I still haven't mastered mine! I too have covered 140000 miles plus in oilers...

Look at the official figures Jamboo, the 0-62 mph times are from a standing start...!

Presuming everyone thinks the 220D Sport is quicker than the standard 220D, Lexus say otherwise http://www.lexus-europe.com/range/is/speci...ubmodel=IS_220d

What I should have said clearly (and not merely implied) is that on a rolling start or coming out of a bend moving the IS220d will be quicker. IF you get the gearing right the mid range acceleration is awesome - it has the same torqu figure as a Porsche Carrera (295lb's/ft) - no IS250 will catch it and I'm pretty sure of that (though haven't tested them side by side). You are right however - From a standing start the poor gearing in 1st and 2nd in the diesel and narrow delivery lw down (2000-3600RPM) means the 250 will rev higher and deliver the power at 4500+RPM will always be quicker on a sprint...

So round a track it could be perilously close...the offical figures are merely sprint figures....

But i got the IS220d not for Speed..... hehe

Part of the joy of a proper diesel is the sheer driveability. The torque is so useful when overtaking, and actually adds to the enjoyment of driving. I know some people like diesels purely for economy's sake, but there are many people who love the thrill of the torque, the way you zip past lorries on A roads etc...and at the same time get excellent economy...

We say that an Auto 220d might have been good, but not with that massive flat spot. I dread to think what the torque converter would have made of it....

I suspect you're right- the d has oodles of low down torque, the 250 needs to be doing 4500 rpm for peak torque.

But revving a V6 petrol is a pleasurable experience, something that can be rarely said for a d.

Its taken me a while to get used to the IS250 with the auto- it really doesn't like to change down in normal mode, unless you push the backstop. When you do, it flies! It feels markedly more lively in Sport mode.

Has any IS220D owner had there car remapped yet? BMW, Seat, VW, Audi diesels response well to remapping.

Found an old thread:

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/ind...mp;hl=chippeduk

Anees

I have not seen any report of it here - but I´m soooo eager to try it.

I wish somebody would! I'd bet the remapped IS220D with an extra 35bhp and 65Nm of torque would feel much faster then a IS250 on the road.

Someone in the spanish Lexus forum has tried this one:

http://www.steinbauer.cc/neu/pdf///STEINBA...AT_130_kW_1.pdf

Really expensive (around £900)... but adds 34 bhp and 80 NM of torque.

Apparently, the car feels less slow under the 2000 rpm mark, and although the car feels faster, you don't feel a massive improvement in the performance. Also for the Sport version, since the ratios for 1st and 2nd gear are quite short, the extra power means the car is a bit less comfortable when taking off.

As an IS220d Sport owner who has driven both IS's many times, I'd prefer an IS220d Sport auto (if they did one) over an IS250 Sport Auto.

Whenever I've driven the IS250 for services/recalls etc. The engine feels really gutless in normal driving conditions, and lets be fair, nobody drives normally at 4500+ rpm.

The overtaking ability is excellent. Theres a stretch on my way home from work, uphill goes into 2 lanes for about 1/2 a mile. 4th gear from about 45mph, it goes like a train!

The IS220d feels faster in normal driving conditions. IMHO

of course - thats what more torque feels like.

however, Im the sole owner of a 250 in my town except for my dad, while theres quite a few 220's thanks to the taxes here

- and whenever a 220 tries to race, they fail...

just tested the F last week though - that things got torque for real!

You have to adjust to the driving style of a diesel or petrol. Yes if you are travelling at say 40 mph and floor the petrol auto it doesn't seem to do much. I had a C270 CDI before that and did notice it when I booted the petrol. So you have to use the gears and rev higher. But the sound - ooh it's like comparing champagne to cheap lambrusco when you rev the petrol. A beautiful creamy v6 growl as opposed to a weedy unrefined coarse sound. That's what I'm talking.

The petrol is quicker PERIOD. Get over it. Torque is nonsense.

Finlex sounds like one of those Passat TDI drivers that says "Hey my TDI has more torque than an M3 so it must be quicker".

Complete tosh.

Ha ha ha !!!

Listen to yourself

Yeah, very funny...well done

What an absolute joy it is to discuss about cars with such experts as GaryC. Torque is nonsense? No, such claims are nonsense.

Just drive a diesel without a Turbo, and you'll see how important Torque is! the Turbo helps in that area like u won't beleeeeeve

Just drive a diesel without a Turbo, and you'll see how important Torque is! the Turbo helps in that area like u won't beleeeeeve. It's a combo between Torque, gearing and BHP, which is why a petrol sports car would be quicker!

Tell that to the Audi R10

Yeah but...that's a racing car, not a standard ports car!! That R10 is awesome...and Audi still make incredible road diesels too...

Still don't agree with the 220d comments. I have driven a few 3.0 v6 diesels.

Audi A6 3.0 TDI, Audi A4 3.0 TDI, BMW 530d and BMW 535d and Mercedes C320 CDI.

Of all of these the only one that felt like a rocket ship was the Mercedes C320 CDI - wow that flew.

Now that is much quicker than an IS250 no question but it's 0-60 in 6.9 secs.

Different kettle of fish from 4 cylinder 2 litre and 2.2 litre diesels - no offence.

gary c,the trouble is that you have made yourself look like a proper jonney buy saying that"torque is nonsense".

This thread takes the larf a long way...

Anyone who's driven a 530d and Audi Variable vanes 3.0TDi knows it is much much quicker than an IS - 250 or 220d- not ISF of course!! The 1st gear is "short" in all of these, but you hardly notice that...when you look at the speedo and see you have just cracked 0 to 30mph quicker than you can blink!

530d - does 0-60 in 6.8s (manual or auto) and has 500NM of torque - that's like 400 lb/ft in imperial talk. There really is no competition...there is hardly any flatspot - it start to deliver this torque from just over 1200rpm, so theres hardly any lag and it feels instantaneous.

Infact even a 525d (same engine as 530d, less output) is much quicker than either IS - 0-60 in 7.6s (7.7 for auto) and 400NM Torque - same as 220d. But the extra 20 BHP (over 10% more) makes the difference, as does the normal gearing and torque from 1300 RPM...and the 535d (same engine with twin turbo's) is just in a different league as the 1st turbo kicks in at Idle speed ...

In Steptronic mode the 525d will comfortably take 6th at 55mph, at around 1100 RPM. The Steptronics don't try and change you down to 5th (protection feature) until you drop to below 1000rpm - so I reckon 50mph in 6th will work, though I've not tried it yet (still sort of running in...)

The other thing I've noticed is this:

Take an IS220d. Leave in neutral, engine on and handbrake up (!). Idle speed. Hit the accelerator...it takes an age for the revs to build - almost a delayed reaction...and remember the turbo isn't really needed as it's not pulling anything other than it's own pistons...

Do the same in any IS250, BMW or Audi diesel and the needle sweeps around immediately...almost petrolesque in the diesels...

That my friends is where one of the problems with the drive is in a IS220d - relatively speaking of course - then when you add the gearing, narrow power delivery etc, you do get this feeling of impeded performance...looking objectively, there is no point in trying to defend it. Just try it and compare it...and that is the reason why the IS250 starts off so quickly compared to the 220d. The engine response is there...this is why the IS250 drivers believe they have a faster car...

And GaryC - Torque is everything...like I've said before, on a rolling start the IS220d is quick...assuming one knows when to change gears on the IS220d, which takes some practice...

I know it's easy for me to chuck eggs now that I'm in Bavarialand, but I do still miss some elements of that Lexus!!! Namely the toys...

There's no trouble at all mate - you can think what you like.

Most people go solely off torque figures and think the higher the torque the faster the car. Rubbish !

My Merc C270 diesel had 370Nm of torque. My IS250 has 252Nm of torque.

So which one is faster ? My IS250 is much quicker in all cases IF YOU DRIVE IT PROPERLY.

The pull actually feels quicker as well and it so swift and smooth through the gears...IF YOU DRIVE IT PROPERLY.

In fact a few weeks ago I was following a C270 CDI round a roundabout and turning right onto a motorway slip road.

As I'd expected he would, the Merc put his foot to the floor to test his huge TORQUE and take me to the cleaners - so he caned it up the slip road.

I put my car in sport mode and dropped it into second gear and flew past him. He couldn't keep up and the engine sound was lovely whereas all he was doing was chucking out loads of black smoke (and running out of steam at 4000 revs).

I'm not saying the IS250 is the fastest car in the world but it beat my old car hands down with the higher torque and it did it gracefully.

Look I know you are just being protective of your nice little car but if you are really wanting to drive an executive car (which is what owning a Lexus is all about isn't it) then you wouldn't really want a car that's a manual or a diesel.

What exec wants a car chucking out a load of black smoke and a course unrefined engine sound ?

That's a side issue anyway - my point was about torque being nonsense. Applies to the case above it IS NONSENSE !

But it is a faster car.... all the figures say that APART FROM TORQUE (which is nonsense).

Yeah right mate.....torque is everything. Yeah right, whatever you say mate...

BMW M3...

Engine Size 2990 cc
Cylinders 6
0-60 mph 5.8 s
Power Output 286 bhp
Valves 24
Torque 320 Nm
Top Speed 155 mph


Mercedes C270 CDI...

Engine Size 2685 cc
Cylinders 5
0-60 mph 8.8 s
Power Output 170 bhp
Valves 20
Torque 370 Nm
Top Speed 140 mph

Just to add my 2ps worth, it's not quite as clear cut as described above..............I do totally agree that in overtaking circumstances from 50-70 etc, diesels usually have far more punch than the equivalent petrol if they are in the right gear, and this is all down to the extra torque.

However this isn't the whole story as the amazingly high torque levels that diesels provide are usually over a very narrow band, whereas the petrols provide lower torque but over a much larger range of the rev band.

As an example, using stats off the Mercedes website:

C320CDI: 510Nm from 1600-2800rpm
C280: 300Nm from 2500-5000rpm
C350: 350Nm from 2400-5000rpm

Not only does this make the car more fun to drive as the power is more accessible, it is also faster except in those specific circumstances diesel drivers always talk about which is pretty much just overtaking on a motorway...............

This could become the most monumental w1lli waving competition ever...

GaryC - read my post #30 - it's a combination between BHP, Torque etc that gives you performance and forward momentum... It's horses for courses of course as Parthiban says. Different animals so this argument will never cease until somone takes one of each to the track...Petrol delivers les torque but spreads it across the rev band.

Also - IF you actually bother to drive a modern Variable Vane Turbo charged diesel, then it is quicker in any gear at any speed. The Torque delivery is much flatter. If you want a good comparison to the IS250, just go an drive the new A4 2.0TDi. It might not rev as much as a 250, but it feels much faster than a manual IS250 which in typical VVti form doesn't deliver anything until you get past 4500RPM. You feel you have to constantly thrash a VVti ptrol to get any decent performance (ECT or not).

You put yer foot down in a modern VV diesel and it just flies...no lag (or very little) and no nonsense.

Both the Lexus IS220d Torque delivery and that of the 270CDi is like that from the era of Helen of Troy...things have moved on a lot thanks to Audi and BMW (on the whole). Lexus won't even make an Auto diesel - like you rightly say who wants an executive car that's a manual??? I did - but never again! That 270CDi engine was introuced back in 2003...or was it earlier? And they haven't really changed it much in 5 years!!

Hopefully for Lexus the new facelift will bring some sensibility to this.

One final thing - food for thought...the Diesel R10 always beats the petrol heads at Le Mans....

Oh dear, what a funny one!

I don't know where you get your info from:

Says who? Never heard that in my life.




Maybe an Exec who appriciates the joy of driving, and the fact that the manual is quicker (for the IS250, as per stats), not all Execs are too lazy to change their own gears!

Many 220Ds will be company cars and accountants need to be satisfied.

Tell me this "GaryC": If Torque is nonsense and means nothing, how quick would your car be if it had, oh I dont know, 50Nm of torque?

I appreciate that you are saying that Torque ALONE does not neccessarily make a quick car, but it is a major contributing factor. FACT.

This guy understands what makes a car fast:


I'm not defending the Diesel, I have a long standing and irrational hatred of oilers. I'm just defending the usefulness of Torque and general common sense!

Carol Shelby once famously said "Horsepower sells cars, Torque wins races." Would you tell him Torque is nonsense? Do you have a greater understanding of engines than Shelby?

Didn't think so.

(If you do not know who Carol Shelby is, try Wikipedia, while there, look up "Torque"!)

This is what seems to be the case with a lot of modern diesels, haven't tried them but I'd definitely like to have a go - the main one being the 335d with it's two different sized turbos.............the stats make it sound like a monster but I'd love to see how driveable it is. I'm pretty sure that it's the reason why they went for forced induction (a big BMW no no) on the 335i instead of a bigger engine as a normally aspirated engine just wouldn't be able to cut it

Parthiban,

I've driven both a GS450h and a 535d. On paper they seem similar on the basic stats.

The difference though is in the 535d's torque. It IS everything! Compared to my new car (same engine) the 535d is a monster and I would have never thought about a BMW until I drove that. It has this surge of power from takeoff like I've certainly never felt before, and when you want to overtake t's like a direct connection between the engine and the throtle. Very Porsche Carera 4S like, but even more brutal at low revs (whereas the Porkr needs lots of revs). No hesitancy - no matter what gear. It is awesome. I've never driven a 335d or a 335i, but I can only imagine....

BMW are doing the Merc "thing" now - limited few engines, tuned for different purposes and forced induced at a price as apropriate!! Must save them £m's in development, assembly and component logistics.

I know that there are lots of Petrol heads who hate diesels, but believe you me, the newest generation of turbo diesels are just so driveable, and quick!

I've got no doubt they're good, the stats are very impressive and reviews always say about how driveable they are..............I hate diesels with a passion, but if I ever had to swap to the darkside, I'm pretty sure the 335/535d would have to be my weapon of choice............

This does confuse me though, now development has moved on so much and turbo lag is not so much of an issue anymore, why not produce more FI petrol engines?

Just looking at the figures for the 335d vs. the 335i, both 3ltr turbocharged units, I'm pretty sure the 335i would waste the diesel at every opportunity. Obviously ignoring economy for a bit, the petrol is also lighter and surely less nose heavy so would handle better too............I really don't get it to be honest

You've got to try them mate. In Lexus terms, the performance differential is like GS00 v GS450h. Both are quick enuff but it's the hybrid with the torque of the Electric motor which is smooth yet blistering.

This whole Diesel v Petrol thing is now to close to call. Whether you're a petrol head wanting high revving octane induced power, or lazy low revving cetane....

I have compared a 530i (272bhp) with the 535d (286bhp), and in any gear at any speed the 535d absolutely blows the 530i away. Everything from the sound of engine (almost V8 worble) to the "punch" in the back when you accelerate. It has 580NM of torque in the "zone" where both Turbo's are on song compared to an IS220d which is impressive enough with 400NM. I know that some won't like hearing this, but in this case Torque is what provides that thrust and momentum - so much so that you just run out of road. The car chassis is so well balanced that you don't notice any weight issue at all - at least not on a couple of hours worth of testing.

I suspect that a 335i will be quicker from a standing start (it has over 300hp) and will rev to 7000 RPM like a sports car whereas the 335d will have the lowend overtaking prowess of a muscle car...in that case it depends what you want - lazy low end grunt or high revving stuff....

We did look at a 335i Auto Sport saloon, with all the toys - satnav, leather etc - 6 moths old and £29k. Didn't drive it though as I wanted a 5 Series M Sport.

It really is horses for courses and I absolutely did NOT want a diesel this time. I drove several 5's - all Petrol (523/525/530). They all performed well and were eonomical - but one drive in the 525d and it was obvious which was more entertaining to drive - The Diesel. The combo of Torque and gearing (even with the Auto box) sealed it, so it won!

That really is interesting, when I find time I'm definitely going to have a go

The diesel Seats seem to be doing well in the BTCC...