Isf vs LC500

[Linas.P]

16 hours ago, talaipwros said:

new M5 more than 600bhp, 0-100 3.4sec. I mean who needs that?

 

I don't really agree - it is not about the need, but it is more about being "better" and being competitive. And I am going to divert from power here, but rather talk about other features e.g. is kind of unthinkable for me that RC-F doesn't come with panoramic roof (even as an option), or 360 surround view system which is available in car like Nissan Note, Qashqai and for that matter in Lexus RX again not even an option... and it is definitely the case of weight reduction cars are heavy anyway. RC doesn't even come with ACC standard (nor an option if it is F-Sport)...

My point here is that Germans clearly winning the race on the paper, both performance and comfort features. Lexus went from being a best value luxury brand, to the one which struggles to offer features even as options. I still believe that Lexus has superior built quality and is more reliable, but from pure buyer perspective, I would be hard pushed to choose the car which clearly has fewer features and less power for the same money. Ok that may be bragging rights, but it is as well just a way to establish relative "value" for the money - if BMW offer all the same in M5 + has more power for the same price is just simply becomes better value for money... even if you don't use that 600hp. Now I would be ready for compromise e.g. take GS-F or RC-F with less power, but more comfort features, because: (1) I will not use 600hp, (2) I might do with something like panoramic sunroof or 360 camera, or ACC, or adaptive laser lightning or whatever other gizmo makes me happy.... but BMW has upper hand even there, if not standard then at least an option. In fact, Lexus lightning is extremely dated whereas MB, Audi and BMW all have "selective" light dimming even on high beam I am not aware of Lexus offering any counterpart.

To summarise - more power is just a way to enhance on paper value of the car for comparison, I would not be sold the idea of having 600hp, but if that is on top of all other areas being better - it just makes it for the overall better deal.

[DAW]

I see where you are coming from but part of the problem for me with the German cars is this technological oneupmanship between the manufacturers, which has significantly contributed to the reliability issues they all suffer from even from new.  It seems to me that most of it is not being properly tested in their race to outdo each other, unlike Lexus who generally will not include it until it's proven to be reliable.  This clearly doesn't seem to matter to the numerous people buying them, especially if they are changing them before the manufacturers warranty runs out. 

Personally, if I were parting with that amount of my own cash, I would expect engineering quality & reliability for it to be a value for money purchase ( as far as any car purchase really can be!!).  For me It's why I wouldn't  consider a German car based on its level of gadgets, because from experience I would fully expect them to go wrong.

As far as performance figures go, as the Chris Harris M5/GS-F comparison clearly showed, a lot of the German cars are now struggling to put their ever increasing levels of power down effectively with MB/BMW having to resort to offering 4 wheel drive to help deliver the power. 

I know I/we are in a minority, as Lexus owner who care about the above issues, considering the comparative sales figures with the German manufacturers.  But I will be sticking with the "F" cars for as long as possible hoping Lexus stick to their values, which are more than powerful enough for our roads IMO.

[Linas.P]

German gadgets don't really go wrong, that is a "feature" of French cars, but I agree that Japanese cars are even more reliable...  and as you mentioned it doesn't really matter until the warranty runs out. Funny enough straight after my reply I watched Chris Harris video for probably 3rd time, he makes some valid points, but I have disliked video previously and now remembered why - he compares apples to oranges on this occasions. GS-F... not against M5, but against special edition "30 Jahre" with extra 40hp, like it is not enough the specific one he compares comes with "competition package"... so basically he compares 2 oranges against one apple... finally like that would be not enough he chose the worst day in entire year where driving any car would be challenge.. let alone performance saloon. As I posted somewhere previously - he is right, nobody can choose weather, but no need make a submarine comparison in the desert either.

My point is that if you take 2 performance cars each costing £70k and one has more of everything you will end-up buying that and whilst Lexus clearly more reliable I generally consider all 4 makes (BMW, Audi, MB and Lexus) as equal. That said Lexus should try at leat match competition... and again not necessary in power - outweigh them on standard equipment, in possible options... but Lexus not doing that either.. that what bother me. 

[Big Rat]

1 hour ago, DAW said:

I see where you are coming from but part of the problem for me with the German cars is this technological oneupmanship between the manufacturers, which has significantly contributed to the reliability issues they all suffer from even from new.  It seems to me that most of it is not being properly tested in their race to outdo each other, unlike Lexus who generally will not include it until it's proven to be reliable.  This clearly doesn't seem to matter to the numerous people buying them, especially if they are changing them before the manufacturers warranty runs out. 

Personally, if I were parting with that amount of my own cash, I would expect engineering quality & reliability for it to be a value for money purchase ( as far as any car purchase really can be!!).  For me It's why I wouldn't  consider a German car based on its level of gadgets, because from experience I would fully expect them to go wrong.

As far as performance figures go, as the Chris Harris M5/GS-F comparison clearly showed, a lot of the German cars are now struggling to put their ever increasing levels of power down effectively with MB/BMW having to resort to offering 4 wheel drive to help deliver the power. 

I know I/we are in a minority, as Lexus owner who care about the above issues, considering the comparative sales figures with the German manufacturers.  But I will be sticking with the "F" cars for as long as possible hoping Lexus stick to their values, which are more than powerful enough for our roads IMO.

@DAW Absolutely right on all counts, there are a fair few on here who have come from the various German marques my self included who will throughly endorse all you have said, and as an aside I've had to buy my self another works van 20k on a Transit, I've bought another Ford purely for value for money.

The usual VW & Merc are stupid stupid prices, if I could have bought an appropriate Japanese van for my needs I would have done without hesitation.

This is how my Lexus ownership is now forming my future vehicle purchases.

Big Rat

[DAW]

I think it depends on what is important to you when buying the car.  I think the German cars concentrate too much on the gadgets and the ability to customise setting etc. Personally I don't have time for all that I just want to get into a well sorted dynamic car and enjoy driving it. I'm not at all convinced that the added expense & complication is improving the driving experince unless maybe you are going to track the car.  The added technology and complication is also making them more nreliable, particularly after 3 years and in my experince they do go wrong.  I had a Renault Williams Clio and it was a relatively simple analogue car and more reliable than the BMW's & Audi's that followed it. It was also one of the best cars I have ever driven. I appreciate that the technology is required to meet emissions / safety etc,  but I'm not convinced it is all necessary. 

I understand your point regarding looking at like for like options but I suspect Lexus will always lag slightly behind the German cars in that respect if they continue putting testing & reliability 1st with the extra expense that incurs, while the German manufacturers are happy to put relatively untested parts into cars at the customers expense.  

I personally hope Lexus stick to their way of doing things because to me a well designed quality product should have been designed to be reliable.  I drove German cars for the previous 10 yrs before the ISF and they all had issues and I wouldn't have felt confident in keeping any of them long term. The ISF is the 1st car I can say that about since my Supra, which stayed in the family for 12 yrs without needing anything other than standard maintenance. 

I bought my ISF rather than its competitors because quality / reliability are important to me.  I completely accept the majority of people clearly don't have the same priorities & would rather aspire too owning a German car.  

[Big Rat]

6 minutes ago, DAW said:

I think it depends on what is important to you when buying the car.  I think the German cars concentrate too much on the gadgets and the ability to customise setting etc. Personally I don't have time for all that I just want to get into a well sorted dynamic car and enjoy driving it. I'm not at all convinced that the added expense & complication is improving the driving experince unless maybe you are going to track the car.  The added technology and complication is also making them more nreliable, particularly after 3 years and in my experince they do go wrong.  I had a Renault Williams Clio and it was a relatively simple analogue car and more reliable than the BMW's & Audi's that followed it. It was also one of the best cars I have ever driven. I appreciate that the technology is required to meet emissions / safety etc,  but I'm not convinced it is all necessary. 

I understand your point regarding looking at like for like options but I suspect Lexus will always lag slightly behind the German cars in that respect if they continue putting testing & reliability 1st with the extra expense that incurs, while the German manufacturers are happy to put relatively untested parts into cars at the customers expense.  

I personally hope Lexus stick to their way of doing things because to me a well designed quality product should have been designed to be reliable.  I drove German cars for the previous 10 yrs before the ISF and they all had issues and I wouldn't have felt confident in keeping any of them long term. The ISF is the 1st car I can say that about since my Supra, which stayed in the family for 12 yrs without needing anything other than standard maintenance. 

I bought my ISF rather than its competitors because quality / reliability are important to me.  I completely accept the majority of people clearly don't have the same priorities & would rather aspire too owning a German car.  

@DAW Just stop this now all this common sense honestly  I'm beginning to sound like your sycophantic lap dog, actually that's fine by me 😂

Big Rat

[NemesisUK]

6 minutes ago, DAW said:

 I think the German cars concentrate too much on the gadgets and the ability to customise setting etc.

Having just come from a German marque, I think this is far from the case. My RC is far more customisable, on the fly, by the driver, than anything Mercedes offered. MB put lots of cutting edge tech into their cars but they also dictate how that tech will be used. Lexus, in my limited experience, technology tends to be slightly behind cutting edge but far more configurable and (so far) more stable and reliable.

[Big Rat]

From a personal perspective long live large capacity normally aspirated engines ! I know they have a limited life due to emissions but at least it's an aspect that for now Lexus is true  to.

Big Rat

[NemesisUK]

I do miss the brutal power of my old supercharged 5.4ltr V8 .... 

But am loving the silky smooth, relaxed, serene drive of my hybrid.

A change as good as a rest and one should celebrate diversity

[DAW]

1 minute ago, NemesisUK said:

Having just come from a German marque, I think this is far from the case. My RC is far more customisable, on the fly, by the driver, than anything Mercedes offered. MB put lots of cutting edge tech into their cars but they also dictate how that tech will be used. Lexus, in my limited experience, technology tends to be slightly behind cutting edge but far more configurable and (so far) more stable and reliable.

That just goes to show it's not Lexus that behind the curve it's just this old fella 😉

 

6 minutes ago, Big Rat said:

@DAW Just stop this now all this common sense honestly  I'm beginning to sound like your sycophantic lap dog, actually that's fine by me 😂

Big Rat

Glad to hear it 😉

Sorry just the ramblings of a middle aged man remembering when times were simpler.

[mike m]

18 minutes ago, DAW said:

 

I understand your point regarding looking at like for like options but I suspect Lexus will always lag slightly behind the German cars in that respect if they continue putting testing & reliability 1st with the extra expense that incurs, while the German manufacturers are happy to put relatively untested parts into cars at the customers expense.   

I completely agree. One example of this is the electric handbrake which only the new lexus models are starting to lose the foot operated handbrake. Renault's have had electric hand brakes for years and go wrong. I'm sure I read most lexus models take five years of development before being released.

Another example that comes to mind is the standard auto box instead of using a duel clutch setup, how many DSG boxes have gone wrong in VAG motors? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands?  Then you still have to replace the clutch plates, crazy.

[DAW]

3 minutes ago, mike m said:

I completely agree. One example of this is the electric handbrake which only the new lexus models are starting to lose the foot operated handbrake. Renault's have had electric hand brakes for years and go wrong. I'm sure I read most lexus models take five years of development before being released.

Another example that comes to mind is the standard auto box instead of using a duel clutch setup, how many DSG boxes have gone wrong in VAG motors? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands?  Then you still have to replace the clutch plates, crazy.

Not to mention the problems with the VAG Stronic auto boxes before them!!!

[Big Rat]

10 minutes ago, DAW said:

That just goes to show it's not Lexus that behind the curve it's just this old fella 😉

 

Glad to hear it 😉

Sorry just the ramblings of a middle aged man remembering when times were simpler.

@DAW +1 on that 

🐀

[Big Rat]

10 minutes ago, DAW said:

Not to mention the problems with the VAG Stronic auto boxes before them!!!

@DAW And when the comparisons where made between the isF and the M3 some years ago by virtually all the motoring journos regarding gearboxes the BM's all had 'modern' DCT gearboxs and the isF had to make do with an 'old fashioned ' auto.

Now isn't it strange that all the 'M's are to become auto only, they really do talk a load of s...

Big Rat

[emjay82]

Growth of these brands, competition and their increasing models.....somethings gotta give...

[DAW]

10 minutes ago, emjay82 said:

Growth of these brands, competition and their increasing models.....somethings gotta give...

Exactly!!

[emjay82]

2 minutes ago, DAW said:

Exactly!!

Lexus has a very different setup, hopefully it continues 👍