Please Help - Lexus Head Gasket Gone Twice!

[kardaa]

Hi people,

I was hoping someone could help me with my issue. As experienced by many others, I started getting the temp gauge shooting up to maximum and then coming back down. The car wasn't overheating as such, but coolant was overflowing from the radiator.

Anyway, I rang Lexus Birmingham, who were very helpful and asked me to drop it in as it may be the head gasket. My car has done 108k and is just under 5 years old. They gave me a courtesy car (THANK YOU) and got onto diagnosys. It is in fact the head gasket which has gone and ordinarily would be covered under the extended warranty which a lot of us know about (for others: Lexus extended their standard warranty to 110k / 7 years due to head gasket issues). HOWEVER, it turns out that the head gasket had already been replaced in my car at 60k miles. They just rang me up and said that as such, it is no longer covered under the extended warranty because the issue had been addressed at 60k. I am trying to look at this with reason and can see their point. However, my question is how long should their repair (at 60k) be expected to last and of course, if the same issue materialises again (within the extended warranty period), should they not take ownership of this specific issue pertinent to the IS220d? I'm getting a call back from them tomorrow to inform me if they can assist in anyway, but by the sounds of the guy who called me, he reckons they won't.

I've read some excellent customer service comments about various dealerships and would hope that I can report another soon but I wonder where I technically stand if they don't cover it? Although the repair was done at 60k, it has happened again and surely, if it's within the the extended warranty period, they should attend to it??? Obviously, its may bank account at stake here, so I'll by default be partial but hope some of you guys out there can help me with advice, thoughts and even more welcome would be any similar experience where the head has gone twice within the extended warranty period?

I welcome all thoughts and comments and without question will feedback what happens with the dealer.

Karda

[ColinBarber]

Hi Karda

I'm assuming that they used updated parts the first time to stop the problem happening again?

This really is out of the hands of the dealership, they get paid by Lexus GB so they are the ones that have to agree. IMO the repair should have lasted longer than it did, if they aren't willing to repair it under the extended warranty then you would have to take the matter through the courts. You would need an engineering report to determine the cause of the problem, if it is related to the known issue then I'd expect you to get a ruling in your favour.

[kardaa]

Hi Karda

I'm assuming that they used updated parts the first time to stop the problem happening again?

This really is out of the hands of the dealership, they get paid by Lexus GB so they are the ones that have to agree. IMO the repair should have lasted longer than it did, if they aren't willing to repair it under the extended warranty then you would have to take the matter through the courts. You would need an engineering report to determine the cause of the problem, if it is related to the known issue then I'd expect you to get a ruling in your favour.

Hi Colin and thanks for replying.

Until tomorrow I won't know for sure, but think it safe to assume they used the newer parts when done at 60k. Now I'm fearing them quoting me the full repair cost and was at least hoping for some assistance or contribution. I wonder if anyone's had any experience of a 50/50 cost contribution? My feeling still is that they set a period of 7 years and 110k for the extended warranty for this issue and my car is within both parameter's - although I see your point and just like most people, I don't really want to have to see it through a legal channel. When the chap spoke to me on the phone, he said he'll have to speak to Lexus and see if they can 'assist'. Not sure precisely what he meant, but didn't sound too positive!

Would love to hear from more people but will update this thread with what happens tomorrow in any case.

Karda

[ColinBarber]

just been looking over on our Toyota forums - obviously a lot more cases there as many more Toyotas sold compared to Lexus. It seems some people have had two or three failures. It also seems to be the case that the multiple failures were when dealers were rebuilding engines. Now new engines are supplied by Toyota which the dealer just fit and I don't think there have been reports of those new engines failing - could be because they have actually fixed the issue now, or they are just too new.

You may want to post on the Avensis/Verso/Rav forums to ask for their experiences. Ultimately Toyota GB make the warranty decision for both Toyota and Lexus in the UK.

[kardaa]

Thanks for the pointer and info Colin - very much appreciated. Will take a look tomorrow and update this thread also. Is there a specific forum that you're referring to or shall I just google for any?

Karda

[kardaa]

Hi again,

Had a call from the dealer today and bad news as it stands! They said they won;t contribute anything towards the costs for the following reasons:

1. The head gasket has been repaired/replaced and deemed resolved (however, from the TSB I read the head gasket was a symptom of carbon clogging).

2. Although the car has been serviced, it hasn't got FLSH. Hence, they can;t confirm if the correct oil and parts have been used in services.

3. According to the revised guidelines dated June 2012, their is only reference to the head gasket (rather than carbon etc).

They can't at this stage confirm if the current HG failure is due to carbon clogging and of course will cost a lot of labour to establish the root cause. I've been given a case number and advised to speak with Customer Services for more information. None of this is looking promising, but I can't believe that after reading the Toyota Owners Club forum and seeing this issue time and time again, they've resolved so many issues. My key arguments now are:

1. The previous HG repair hasn't been effective if after another 50,000 miles & 3 years, it has got the same problem.

2. It still falls within 7yrs and 111k miles. Does anyone know of any conditions stipulated???

Can anyone help with adding more weight to my arguments???

Colin - thank you for pointing me towards the Toyota forum - I found some really good info there and may also send this post there.

Karda

[kardaa]

Hi all,

Just to let you know that Lexus have said a short and quick NO. Although the car is less than 111k miles and under 7 years old, their reason for not honouring the extension on the standard warranty (carbon related symptoms only) is due to the last couple of services not being done at the main dealer. I think a very shallow excuse, but they won't budge an inch. They say the extension is a goodwill gesture and they are free to decline. My argument remains that it is a known problem and they aren't acknowledging the probability of the issue being related to the engine (not how it's been driven!). My only option now is to get a repair done locally, get an engineers report to confirm the root cause and then seek legal advice. With a bit of luck, I can drop the bill at their doorstep eventually. Thanks for the help Colin and hope this is useful to others. If you have a dealer history and your car is less than 111k / 7 yrs, play it safe and keep servicing at Lexus. In my case, they have quoted £3600 plus parts (which I think come to £1000 with a new head). £4600 would get me a smallish motor with a working engine built to the spec and quality stated when sold.

Good luck to you all.

Karda

[ColinBarber]

They say the extension is a goodwill gesture and they are free to decline.

You can't really argue with that statement, instead you would have to use the Sale of goods act to claim a car that needs a new engine every 60k miles isn't fit for purpose.

The 'not been serviced by a main dealer' part doesn't hold up IMO, you have a service book which lists the service schedule. Nothing in there would prevent the issue from occurring. If they changed the schedule then I would expect Lexus to inform all registered keepers for such a serious change. Within the main warranty period it is illegal for a manufacturer to insist that only their main dealers can perform servicing just to maintain the warranty, therefore they have to provide owners with the correct maintenance schedule so they are free to have servicing done elsewhere, provided you get the vehicle serviced according to the schedule (including the use of the recommended oil and fluids etc) by a competent garage.

Also given that the issue seems to occur around 60k miles, it would be unlikely to happen in just 20k to 30k miles which is the distance the vehicle has travelled whilst not being serviced by Lexus. This would lead me to think that the Lexus service at 70k, 80k etc has done nothing to prevent the problem reoccurring and therefore would have occurred anyway even if Lexus continued to service the vehicle.

All the best. I would recommend you seek legal advise.

[mikeyv]

Sounds like an awful lot of aggro, with the possibility of a lot of money leaving your wallet, especially if you go lthe legal route and don't succeed.

If the car is fit to drive through an auction, I'd be inclined to get rid, and cut my losses, then move on to a more reliable model.

Your problems could be over within days.

[kardaa]

Hi all,

Thanks for the follow up message.

Colin - very good advice, thanks.

Tbh, if I hadn't known of Lexus extended warranties to 111k, I would be a fool to approach the dealers for the repair. It was only through research (and virtually every independent garage I spoke to referring me back to the dealers) I learned of the extension of the warranty.

Colin - thanks for making the point of 'dealer only' service requirements not being legal. I've read some other stuff up on this and you're perfectly correct. I've also read up on the Sales of Goods Act which partially applies here I think due to the repair not being effective and not lasting a reasonable amount of time.

The only reservation I have at the moment is that Lexus may not have officially extended the warranty to the widely read 111k / 7yrs. I don't see anything official from them, so may potentially be a pitfall with my pursuit. However, beyond this, a friend of mine (repair garage owner) made some enquiries on my behalf and after speaking with another Lexus dealership, he said they'll take it in and do the job FOC. Now, I wonder if this is going through the same cycle as with Lexus Birmingham; i.e dealer says 'yes', offers courtesy car, 2 days later Lexus so 'no'. Or I wonder if they will do it within the extended warranty without any questions? Not sure if any you know if different dealerships have different ways about getting these kind of things done??? Don't want to mention the dealership just yet - but will do happily after I know where I stand.

I think my next course of plan is for this sister dealership to take the car in and see what happens. If I have the same obstacle, I think this would then be exhausted and would need to resort to what was PLAN B a couple of days ago (independent garage repair, diagnosis and legal advise for claiming from Lexus).

This is incredibly frustrating people, so thank you for some encouragement and good advise!

Karda

[normski2]

They say the extension is a goodwill gesture and they are free to decline. My argument remains that it is a known problem and they aren't acknowledging the probability of the issue being related to the engine (not how it's been driven!).

Karda

I beg to differ, somewhat. Goodwill gesture? This Head Gasket problem has been a real problem to Toyota. It clearly has all the appearance of being a manufacturing/design defect. If and when it goes it does not matter who has serviced it.....it will go! Mine had 6 Lexus service stamps...still went. So nothing their technicians can do to stop it happening. I say your argument is correct and would think you would have a good case. Not so sure about the 60K mark though. Mine went at 98 and I know of others anywhere from 40 to 106.

There is a very good account of this issue, together with a set of revealing photos, right here on this forum. They were put up by a Toyota mechanic and explain what is happening. If I can locate them I will come back and put a link up.

Good luck to you with the second Lexus garage doing it FOC. Hope it all works out...keep us posted.

Edit a little later

Here you go, have a read of what Ormi says and shows here. Just scroll down until you find his first post.

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=70826&st=0&p=743212&hl=+head%20+gasket&fromsearch=1entry743212

This bit says it all really

'It's a common fault!!!but it won't just need a gaasket it'll need a block and head the gasket shuffles and damages the block and head.I dont work for lex I work for Toyota but the 2.2 is used in the avensis and the auris and the rav 4.

The warranty on these have been extended to 7 years or 110k..

I have rebuilt more of these engines than a care to remember'.

[kardaa]

Hi Normski,

Thanks for the info and link/extract.

I've been pulling my hair out over this! It really is a matter of principle - they have acknowledged a fault, they've done many many repairs/replacements, yet they won't even contribute in my scenario. I even can't comprehend why I'm being discriminated ??? When I challenged them about why it was necessary to have a full dealer service history, their reply was that that assures credibility that the correct parts/oils/liquids have been used when servicing. My local garage can evidence that they have purchased service parts from Lexus and of course, there will be signs of it when they look under the bonnet. I said that was a moot point because they would have to prove to me that the engine had been damaged as a result of poor or improper maintenance. There was a moment of silence! They say it is a goodwill gesture and although they can't demand Lexus servicing in the standard manufacturer's warranty, they can do so in the extended warranty (my research confirms this). My response was that I was not to know of this issue with their engine and had I known there was a conditional extended warranty, I would have had Lexus servicing for peace of mind. Their response to that was that they weren't to know of who had ownership of the car as it wasn't touching their network. Isn't that yet another shallow excuse?! If they endeavoured to proactively track their customers (even without causing too much bad press), how difficult can that be... ESPECIALLY when I have been receiving Lexus literature through the post and an MOT reminder as well as invites to events. I suspect they're revenue generating rather than cost generating! Although there isn't an official governing body for the motor trade there is a mediation service provided by Motor Code. I've given them the background over the phone and they've asked me to complete a form so they can liaise with Lexus on my behalf. However, they are little more than a Citizens Advice Bureau service, so not expecting too much.

I know times are hard but they are equally hard for most of us. I myself have AA Breakdown Repair Cover, but £500 minus the excess doesn't go very far. IF I had known about this potential risk to my engine, why on earth would I not have taken more adequate cover? If there is a product defect which they are responsible for and don't proactively remedy, why should the customer pay for the subsequent damage? Isn't the non Lexus servicing a cop out to the detriment of customers who have paid a premium on a Lexus, only to eventually discover there is a common fault which they may fix as a 'goodwill gesture'.

[ColinBarber]

worth reading this thread. Potentially, if caught early enough, you may just need a new gasket and a clean rather than a new engine.

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=77867&hl=&fromsearch=1