Suspicious - Dealer Says New Callipers Needed On Gs450H

[braindead]

I've just had my GS450h in for its 60k service. Two points came up.

One was "both rear callipers seized, not sliding".

I got suspicious when the dealer said its very common and that the customer who's just left had had his done.

I don't see vast numbers of people mentioning this on the forum either.

My question is, if the callipers a re seized, how is it I still have great braking and is it common? I was told it's likely to be a £300 touch :(

[Lexmanic]

The slides are probably just dirty. Any decent mechanic can fix them by cleaning & adding a little touch of bronze grease Also they should have an expanding rubber shroud. If this is missing dirt & grime can quickly accumilate causing them to stick

[ChrisIS200SportTTE]

Not the first time I've heard of rear callipers seizing on a GS450h but I wouldn't say it was common.

You could strip the calliper down yourself or get a local mechanic to do it. Clean the slide pins of dirt, corrosion and put them back together. Be a lot cheaper.

I did this with my front callipers on my IS200 after they seized but it only lasted about 1000 miles and I had to do it again. Couldn't be bothered to keep doing this so in the end I just bought new callipers.

What is it with Lexus and seizing callipers?

[tonyricha]

Hi, my 06 GS450h has had the rear calipers changed for this reason at least 3 times!!!!, I have always bought the extended warranty so just let them get on with it but have never felt and difference with the brakes, seen excessive corrosion or felt the rear brake discs to be hot so I believe they work just fine.

Wont happen again as the car is too old this year to buy the warranty again. This has been about the only fault in the car's history so not too upset, everything still works like new which is a huge achievement given the complexity of all the systems.

[braindead]

Interesting, what are the noticeable symptoms please? If the slider was truly stuck then I'd expect binding on the none cylinder side then, as the pad/disk wore, no pressure on the none cylinder side.

[tonyricha]

no symptoms to the car, just your bank account.

[Dean8788]

Had my rears done as well same problem.

[Energieumwandler]

Hello :)

happy new year...

After I found my problem (water in the car) in this forum I take a look for other topics and found this one...

I guess the problem is not the caliper piston, the problem is the sliding bolt on the downside of the caliper...

My 450h also have the same caliper problem. Before I buy the dealer tell me that they replace it 20000km before because the calipers are stuck. So I think its ok.

After 6months "in my hands" I do the maintenance (i prefer to do the normal maintenance by myself) and recognize that the rear left caliper (only the left side) dont move.

So I fix it and thought it will be done...I was wrong!

6 Month later I change the wheels, take a look at the left side and: stuck again *hhrrrmgpfff*

Fix it again, add some breake grease there to prevent water comes there...

6 Months later...doesnt help...

Now I fix it again, use more abrasive papersheets to clean the sliding bolt, use a special tough grease and use too much of this grease(until it squeeze out of the rubberseal of the sliding bolt) so water cant be there and stuck the caliper again...

Now, 1year later I can tell: SUCCESS! The last work helps until now. This year I change the rubber seal because I think too much of grease isnt good for that-but its way better than stuck calipers again ;)

[coneybiller]

I did a bit of a write up on this when it happened to my 450h, (with pics )

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic/80738-rear-calipers-gs450h/page-3?hl=+slider%20+pin

Seems that the slider pin portion of the caliper needs a grease nipple on the end so that t can be greased regularly to stop this seizing problem!! Very poor design and pretty common as the main stealers quote all to often!

[Rory2000]

Hi Guys

So my 2007 GS450h has got two seized brake calipers on the rear which i need to replace (or fix) but im sure the dealership is more inclined to sell new parts, i was wondering are there any other calipers on the market which are better than the OE Lexus ones as from what i have read they don't seem to be that good?

Also car is March 2007 with 38800 miles but Lexus Belfast say its not covered under warranty, some people have said on the forum they got theirs replaced by Lexus what is the case here as Lexus Belfast say no ?

On a side note im getting new wheels put on it on Thursday / Friday and will run 18x8 front (same as OE) and 18x9 rear with 245/40R18 Goodyear Front and 275/35R18 Rear so looking forward to this... will try and get some pictures up.

[doro708]

Eurocar parts have some calipers for £130 or something similar or you could go to an independent garage and have them rechecked . It may be necessary to just grease the pins.

[aly-g]

Lexus warranty is 60k OR 5years whichever is soonest....

[ColinBarber]

Nearly all Toyota vehicles suffer with this. The latest TSBs state that too much grease is a cause of the problem. I check mine yearly now and use Bosch Superfit brake lubricant.

What is most disappointing is that although all the dealers know about this they don't offer an 'extended' service to include a check and re-grease of the sliding pins, they will just wait until the pads are worn, or the discs corroded, and then expect the owner to pay for new brakes.

As for symptoms, normally one of the pads won't make full contact with the disc so you start to get corrosion on the disc surface. Alternatively a pad will not move cleanly away from the disc and you get excessive pad wear, you can tell this by feeling the temp of the wheels - one will be hot.

[Energieumwandler]

Nearly all Toyota vehicles suffer with this. The latest TSBs state that too much grease is a cause of the problem. I check mine yearly now and use Bosch Superfit brake lubricant.

Hmmmm, yes and no...

If there is less lubricant, water comes inside (most times starts early on the left rear side) and corrosion and stuck sliders are the result...

Is there too much lubricant, water cant come inside. This isnt a problem...

Problem is, if there is the "wrong" lubricant, the rubber seal will swell up and doesnt fit longer tight around the slider. The water can come inside, result is corrosion...but how to find out if lubrication ist "wrong" or "right"?

Good question-you will see (after ~1year) if you test it ;)

[ColinBarber]

By design the grease isn't there to stop the water coming in, that is the job of the seal. Toyota/Lexus are suggesting to use an amount slightly larger than the size of a pea for both pins. Enough to lightly cover the smooth shank surface of the pins.

Too much grease creates resistance and stops the pads retracting, so whilst you won't get corroded discs you may get increased wear. Using the wrong grease or packing too much can be dangerous as any excess can be forced out onto the fiction surfaces which will reduce the braking ability.

You shouldn't use grease that affects rubber, cannot handle high temperatures, grease that causes wear (copper grease) or grease that dries out (red rubber grease). Toyota advise the use of Lithium soap base Gylcol grease. I use Bosch Superfit brake lubricant which is designed for brake callipers.

[aly-g]

I use L M grease I think this is the type used for cv joints, hopefully this will do the job ... Will check again just before winter comes, as far as checking and regreasing the pins.... Remember we don't get true mechanics any more only fitters, that's what I find anyway......

Allan

[Rory2000]

Well

Having fun with Lexus UK saying not covered under warranty on a 2007 GS450h with 38,000 miles with a full Lexus service history and i have to pay to get the work fixed. £350 / Caliper Lexus Belfast want unless they can unstick them (we all know what will happen here)

Lexus Customer Service UK Said they will submit a claim to Toyota in Belgium and see what they say but it can take 2 weeks +/-

The girl on the phone @ Lexus Customer Service UK says its not an issue in the UK and didn't even read the PDF which i sent just made her own mind up based on the notes they had on my ticket with them .... and not to believe what i had found on Google lol

See the attached PDF from Lexus USA which i emailed to them, its a great read, and tells you the issue and how to repair and replace at no charge to the customer.

What a Joke !

Only wished i had found out these problems with the Lexus before i bought it arghhhh

Does anyone have any information or a PDF showing this issue from Lexus UK so i can send it to Lexus customer support ?

Lexus Calipers Issue.pdf

[ColinBarber]

There hasn't been a recall in the UK and your vehicle is out of warranty so you either have to hope that Toyota Europe will fund / part-fund the repair as a good will gesture or you will have to pay for the repair yourself.

Consumer laws for vehicles is probably the only case where people in the US get a better deal than in the UK. There are more recalls there and they have extended warranty for emissions etc. Sadly that doesn't help you.

[Energieumwandler]

I think, that the fact that Rory mean is:

No matter which country all over this world, if you go to the dealer you will hear the same:

"Oh no, this is the first time we ever heard about this problem! You are the first one for this! And please dont trust the internet because you cant believe it .....blablabla...."

Next point is:

Its easy to fix with the parts from the car only in some rare cases they will need new parts.

But what they do?

We need new parts!

;)

Yes, parts of it is right, especially some informations found in the internet.

But:

The dealers (or Lexus UK) reaction is like this problem never been happen AND THIS isnt right!

Everybody can search for this issue and in a short time will find a result.

If the cars have the same equipment or technical implementation of disc brakes in this area there are no differences between the countries, so the same thing can also happen in other countries all over the world!

And no, I dont mean some "especially-american-things" like cats in the microwave (or similar).

Same issue happened on my car (before I buy it). The dealer fix it with new parts (without any charge for the customer after 5years and ~50000km) and result is:

It needs 20000km and the same thing happen again...after this I tried to fix it by myself and now there is no problem...

[ColinBarber]

Lexus, or any other manufacturer, isn't going to issue a costly recall unless they are required to do so by law or unless a recall would be cheaper than any negative publicity. Therefore whist the UK vehicles suffer with the same braking issue there hasn't been a recall, because it is safety related which is really the only reason why a recall gets issued in this country.

But certainly Lexus dealers would have access to the same TSBs and the parts catalog would be updated with the new part codes.

I'm not saying the above is how we as consumers would like it, but it is the reality unfortunately. Also let's be clear, the modified parts certainly won't stop the problem happening again, they should just last longer - it is certainly advisable to do proactive maintenance when it comes to the slider pins and check them every year or two.

I suspect that when dealers fix calliper issues they don't use the correct grease, or the correct amount, or reuse a seal which look ok but may be worn slightly. When the vehicles are new they tend to last 5 years before having calliper issues, when repaired 2 years seems to be an average timeframe before problems occur again.

[Rory2000]

Lexus came back to me today ... I can pay to get them to fix it and then they will submit a claim to Toyota Belgium head office and they might do something but in short this will not happen so waste of time paying Lexus Belfast £700 to change both callipers as such will do it myself and try to fix it.

The worst thing is even if I was to get new ones from Lexus more than likely the problem will re occur...

Thanks for everyone's help and advice I will let you know how I get on repairing it myself

[ColinBarber]

I'm sure it is the slider pins rather than the piston that is at fault. Get the old ones out with mole grips, clean up the inside of the calliper and use new slider pins and boots. Slide pins are only around £3 each, £1 for the bushing, it's just the boots that are expensive for what they are - something like £14 each for my RX ones.

[steve2006]

I along with other LOC members have used the company on the link below for caliper repair kits and rebuilt calipers,although the later GS model isn't listed it may be worth a call to see if they can supply the parts required.

Certainly be cheaper than Lexus.

http://www.biggred.co.uk/

[Rory2000]

Hi Steve2006

Thanks for the link i will give them a call tomorrow...

[Mouser]

Stuck slide pins are an easy enough job to DIY in your garage. You'll need an axle stand & chocks, hammer, penetrating oil and brake cleaner, wire brush and fine (2000+) wet & dry paper, along with the usual ratchet / socket for the nuts and some brake specific grease such as the lithium soap based glycol grease or Ceratec. It's good to have a small circular file as well if it's been seized a while. If you've none of the above, that'll run about £30 and you can expect it to take an afternoon (most of which is waiting for the penetrating oil to work).

Chock the wheels at the other end, crack the nuts on the wheels, jack the car up and shove the axle stand underneath the axle. You really should not ignore the chucks here as you'll be bashing quite hard. Remove the wheel to get at the brake itself.

It's usually one slide pin causing the problem, so undo the other and spray lots of brake cleaner under the boot to clean out the old corrosion filled gunk, then after that's sat for a few minutes spray a load of penetrating oil beneath the rubber (you want to get one with the long tube nozzle). Give it ten minutes and, assuming that it's still not coming apart happily, start whacking the caliper to rotate/move it side to side - the aim is to get some minor motion to break the hold of the corrosion. As soon as you start to get some movement successfully, spray a load more penetrating oil in there and let it sit for a while. Repeat a couple of times and you should be able to release the pin (again using the hammer). Take care with the rubber boot unless it's already split (i.e. that was the cause).

Stop for a moment and marvel at the ridiculous amount of corrosion present - wonder about the material choice. Consider that this affects multiple models for over a decade and facepalm.

Remove the corrosion with a wire brush / dremel and finish the surface with the wet & dry sandpaper so that it's smooth and corrosion free, taking care not to dig into the metal where the rubber seals sit. If the inside of the hold where the slide pin sits is full of corrosion and brake cleaner / penetrating oil / dirty rag doesn't remove it then use a circular file to remove it. Use the rag to clean out any resulting debris. If the slide pin itself is very badly corroded then order a new one as they're quite cheap, and a loose one with lots of material removed won't work as well & will likely corrode more quickly.

Apply some cheap 'whatever' grease to the slide pin and move it in and out a few times then wipe it off - this helps to remove the last of the gunk.

Apply the new grease liberally, to the seats for the rubber, pin and everything else. My experience suggests that more is better as once it's reassembled excess should be wiped off at full compression (i.e. push the slider pin all the way in and wipe everything clean).

Double check that all of your bolts are tightened up and go for a slow test drive once the wheel is back on.

Resolve to check your slider pins every month or two - easy to do on the front if you turn the wheels when parked, and on the back if you jack the rear of the car up. If you catch this early you'll never need a hammer to remove it again. It's also important to disassemble and lubricate the pins at every service / 10,000 miles / 12 months as the corrosion is present long before it's enough to stop movement.

That's not a complete DIY, find a how to change your brake pads and add this in. That job doesn't really require the chucks.

Watch this video to learn what a slider pin is, how it should move and how to lubricate it. Note that some videos on youtube use a torch, which is quicker, but the tool itself is quite a bit of money and you stand more chance of causing damage The slide pin arrangement we have is different from this video and easier to un-seize.