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1 hour ago, doog442 said:

Going from 0-60 in 5 seconds in an EV vehicle must be about as exciting as getting in a lift and pressing floor 3. .

Having previously owned a 400bhp, RWD, twin turbo in-line 6 BMW I can tell you given the choice now I would take the Leaf with it's 10second+ 0-60 time over my old BMW.

I never don't quite get people who have never driven an EV can draw up conclusions about something they have never experienced.

 

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4 minutes ago, DJP said:

Sorry, completely wrong. Go and drive a Model S and you'll understand.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What will I understand ? The movement from A to B in a certain time, a particular "whirr or whoosh"......... the confused gobsmacking feeling that the thing driving the wifes sowing machine is driving 4 wheels..you know like a tram or a dodgem :wink3: ...

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1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

Haha what a great comparison!

My wife just got a bmw 118i 4 cyl 1.6 turbo 170hp with 8 speed auto. I drove it the other day and the gearbox was such a relief compared to the cvt. The lightness and nimbleness of the car made it feel so much faster, more nimble, easier to drive around town and just a great overall experience that made me think. Wasnt it Colin Chapman saying he added lightness to the car? the BM is some 500 kg lighter than the IS300H. The BM is almost 1200 ( twelve hundred) kgs lighter than the Tesla X. Somewhere this goes wrong.....

 

Your seriously comparing the weight of a 7 seater SUV with a BMW hatch back.

Why don't you look up how much a similar sized Range Rover weighs compared to a Model X, or even a Jag XF compared to a Model S.  I give you a hint, they all weigh a lot more than a BMW hatch back :wink3:.

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2 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

Your seriously comparing the weight of a 7 seater SUV with a BMW hatch back.

Why don't you look up how much a similar sized Range Rover weighs compared to a Model X, or even a Jag XF compared to a Model S.  I give you a hint, they all weigh a lot more than a BMW hatch back :wink3:.

and yet you're comparing a 400bhp BMW with a Nissan Note...horses for courses. :wink3:

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^^ Well we just have to agree to disagree. But my views are based on my experiences of been a self confessed petrolhead and car ownership, not preconceptions based on no real life experience  :smile:

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Gang, i am struggling to understand what experience the Model X 90D gives or gave you besides the silent drive and falcon doors when compared to an equivalent SUV like an SRT Grand Cherokee.  am  comparing like for like performance of equivalent electric to an equivalent ICE since they will both hit 60 around the 4.8 - 5 sec mark regardless of whats powering them and do over 155mph delimited? but the difference is the V8 HEMI will have soul and character whilst at it..

so what experience is electric giving which an ICE of the same bhp performance figure does not?

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I assume the biggest draw of an EV is the smooth ride, combined with instant and high power in the case of a Tesla. It does feel great to whoosh in three seconds, but I doubt anyone does that much after the first few tries. As for a smooth ride, I assume any petrol car in that price range will give a very smooth ride, like the GS450H for example. In my opinion, Tesla is like apple. A great device, a nice image, but for that money there are better options.

I do hope full EVs are the future, but that future isn't here yet. Give me things like loading up at home in a few minutes, proven reliability of the Battery pack (or a very good warranty deal), light batteries, good price and great range, I'll buy an EV next week. For now, I'll take the middle road with a Lexus hybrid.

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1 hour ago, noby76 said:

so what experience is electric giving which an ICE of the same bhp performance figure does not?

 

You really do have to experience it in person to get it. I lost interest in my old BMW within 100 yards of the Leaf test drive. Yes the Leaf is very slow compared to my old BMW, but instant torque means instant throttle response and I mean instant, ive never driven a combustion car that comes close in throttle response. The IS300H in comparison is like having to use morse code to communicate your right foot with engine output. Your always in the right gear, add in brake regen where slowing down adds energy to the Battery back, the driving experience is on a different level. 

I simply cannot go back to the crude, antiquted way of a combustion engine. Like many aspects of life once your experienced something better its hard to go back to the past. If I couldn't afford a Tesla I would be ordering the newly released 40kWh Zoe. 

BMW, Nissan, Renault, Tesla all do EVs, and I've driven them all, and I love the way all of them drive. Infact at city centre speeds the Leaf is best of the bunch, quiter than i3 and much more economical than a Tesla. But don't take my word for it, rather than wonder why most EV owners love EVs go and try one for your self, you might just be surprised at what you find. 

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but you and i know an equivalent combustion engine in the simialr price range, delivering similar power figures with drive by wire 1 to 1 ratio throttle link mapping and electronically controlled dual clutch gearbox in the right gear will response pretty much instantaneous to the right foot?

.....well the old saying 'don't knock it until you tried it' so i guess i might have to test drive it one day. to experience it i guess... 

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^ Just think what has to happen in a combustion car when you acclerate. 

1. Input from throttle pedal detected. 

2. Throttle body opens

3. Increased fuel goes in to the piston

4. Fuel has to be compressed

5. Fuel has to detonate

6. Torque is generared at the crank

7. Power transfered to wheels via gearbox 

In an electric motor:

1.Throttle input detected

2. Increased electrons move into the motor

3.Torque is generated

4. Power sent to wheels, no need for gearbox 

 

If you were designing a car from scratch which of the above two powertrains would you choose?? Bear in mind one has a few thousand moving parts and can only deliver 35% thermal efficiency in a very narrow operating window whilst the other has 1 moving part and is >90% efficient across its operating window from 1 to 10k rpm. 

Its no coincidence the worlds fastest trains are electric powered and not diesel driven. The combustion engine has had its day and I cannot wait till they dissappear from our streets. 

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.....well the old saying 'don't knock it until you tried it' so i guess i might have to test drive it one day. to experience it i guess... 

Do, in respect of Tesla at least there's no sales flannel, just book a test drive take your driving licence and have a go. They have 'showrooms' dotted around, a few in the likes of Westfield and Bluewater so got me out of Christmas shopping last year!

As a car enthusiast it's a must, even if you do come away and think, no it's not for me.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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14 hours ago, ganzoom said:

^^ Well we just have to agree to disagree. But my views are based on my experiences of been a self confessed petrolhead and car ownership, not preconceptions based on no real life experience  :smile:

Interesting. I've just come from an N55 and I wonder if I would have my head so dramatically turned like you have if I took a Nissan Leaf out for a test drive.

Car ownership to me is more than something that cost 1p a mile, I put far more miles on my 5 bicycles than my IS200t for example and even my old IS200. I'm fortunate in that I don't need to count the pennies. I want a car that I park up and get tempted to turn around and look at  as I walk away, that delivers performance, comfort (to a degree) and reliability. Something that looks decent on my drive and implores me to go out and wax it, open the bonnet, check the levels and pamper it.  I'm not sure a Nissan Leaf or a Renault Zoe would ever tick those boxes.... if I wanted super cheap transport It's not that long before I can get my bus pass for gods sake.

Being an old bugger I can recall the transition between steam engines to diesel then electric. There is still a massive fondness out there for steam as we all know, not so much diesel but even the old Deltics have a fan club of their own. The idea that you want the combustion engine to disappear just strikes me as odd, so I'm guessing that despite your rhetoric you're not an enthusiast as such, you are simply part of the throwaway generation that bin things the second something new and different comes out..like phones and TV's. I'm not having a dig as my son is the same as you, he is on the Tesla list and is imploring me to test drive one, scoffs at my turbos, straight six engines and promises me that like you I will somehow be morphed into someone I'm basically not.... I just humour him :wink3:....

Or perhaps you are an enthusiast, someone who marvels at Newtons Law of motion but if you were you would surely encompass all manner of propulsion within reason, however I guess you could argue you are. You are on a winner though as we all know that one day most vehicles will be Battery powered or similar. 

This whole thing reminds me of the stampede for the Prius when it came out, yet nearly 20 years later I've just bought a nearly new 2 litre petrol turbo engine - perhaps its me and I just don't get it, yes that's what it must be. 

That aside its a great thread (Informative) and I will arrange a test drive of a Nissan leaf as have a dealership down the road. The idea of having one on my drive and plugging the thing is an altogether different prospect:whistling:....

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9 hours ago, ganzoom said:

If you were designing a car from scratch which of the above two powertrains would you choose?? Bear in mind one has a few thousand moving parts and can only deliver 35% thermal efficiency in a very narrow operating window whilst the other has 1 moving part and is >90% efficient across its operating window from 1 to 10k rpm. 

Its no coincidence the worlds fastest trains are electric powered and not diesel driven. The combustion engine has had its day and I cannot wait till they dissappear from our streets. 

Don't get too carried away with efficiency figures. If the electricity comes from a fossil fuel burning power station with an efficiency of say 40%, then 90% of 40% is not dramtically greater than 35%. The power station does operate at steady efficiency and it may do a better job of cutting pollution although its pollution is all in one place.

John

 

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1 hour ago, doog442 said:

Car ownership to me is more than something that cost 1p a mile

 

Just a fleeting vist to the Tesla website will show you cost of motoring is the last thing that am bothered about. Im happy to pay the premium because in my view its worth paying extra for EVs. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, OldTrout said:

Don't get too carried away with efficiency figures. If the electricity comes from a fossil fuel burning power station with an efficiency of say 40%, then 90% of 40% is not dramtically greater than 35%. The power station does operate at steady efficiency and it may do a better job of cutting pollution although its pollution is all in one place.

John

 

How much electricity do you think it takes to refine a gallon of petrol?? How much energy is needed to extract and transport the crube in the first place?? 

Look it up the answers and the results may susprise you. 

As for future generation capcity, look at what the Germanys have managed. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-16/germany-just-got-almost-all-of-its-power-from-renewable-energy

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OK, I'll await the flack.  My (lease) IS300h has gone back, and is replaced by a diesel Volvo C70, manual.

Top of my list was a full 4seater folding hardtop convertible.  Eos, Megane, 308 etc too small.

I chose diesel as the VED is £185, the petrol version has VED of £500, and better fuel economy is a given.

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I'd never touch a diesel, but that is a great car. I hope one day I'll be able to comfortably afford a convertible for the summer weekends.

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I've just sold my IS250 after 6 years of ownership and bought a Seat Leon Cupra, 280 Bhp, DSG gearbox, fully loaded, radar cruise control, lane assist etc,etc, drives over the bad roads better than the Lexus despite having 19" wheels. Before I bought this i considered numerous cars from Passats, Volvo S40 & S60, RX450h, GS450h but I wanted to get away from RWD cars & having to mess around putting on winter tyres. I will miss the Lexus dealerships though and the great customer service. 

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5 hours ago, MIKEDAVIDN said:

I've just sold my IS250 after 6 years of ownership and bought a Seat Leon Cupra, 280 Bhp, DSG gearbox, fully loaded, radar cruise control, lane assist etc,etc, drives over the bad roads better than the Lexus despite having 19" wheels. Before I bought this i considered numerous cars from Passats, Volvo S40 & S60, RX450h, GS450h but I wanted to get away from RWD cars & having to mess around putting on winter tyres. I will miss the Lexus dealerships though and the great customer service. 

Any reason for going Leon rather than Golf? I know which one I'd choose

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I chose the Seat because for 19k you get a car that is more powerful than a golf GTI and 3 years newer than a golf-r, I will keep the car for 5-6 years so not worried too much about depreciation. That's the reason I origianally chose the Lexus over a BMW or Mercedes due to getting more for your money. 

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Now here's an old thread I really wanted to post on..

with this link

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-introduce-game-changing-electric-vehicle-2022-report

 

Didn't think Toyota were sitting back and doing nothing,,, and this is what i was saying that new Battery tech is needed for next gen hybrids through to mass adoption of EVs,  . rather than using 20+ year old Lithium Ion tech ( invented by Sony more than 20 years ago) used in all Tesla, Leaf,   etc..  Just think with current Battery tech , how much of car like tesla is just batteries..

Granted I will have changed my current car well before 2022..

 

 

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On 23/12/2016 at 10:07 PM, marrat said:

I'd never touch a diesel, but that is a great car. I hope one day I'll be able to comfortably afford a convertible for the summer weekends.

Why just for summer weekends?  A few cars ago, I had a Saab 9-3 vert as a daily driver for business use, which was kept outside, through three winters.  No problems, or inconvenience that any two door car wouldn't have.  If it wasn't raining, top would be down, heater and hat on, lovely!

i chose a folding hardtop rather than soft top this time because I'm now into detailing, and I can get more satisfying results on paintwork than I could on a soft top

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On 7/26/2017 at 0:15 AM, mpls said:

Now here's an old thread I really wanted to post on..

with this link

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-introduce-game-changing-electric-vehicle-2022-report

 

Didn't think Toyota were sitting back and doing nothing,,, and this is what i was saying that new battery tech is needed for next gen hybrids through to mass adoption of EVs,  . rather than using 20+ year old Lithium Ion tech ( invented by Sony more than 20 years ago) used in all Tesla, Leaf,   etc..  Just think with current battery tech , how much of car like tesla is just batteries..

Granted I will have changed my current car well before 2022..

 

 

If this story actually has FACT behind it that would be great. The next generation of batteries are all still lithium ion based. There is nothing wrong with lithium ion tech and with carbon nano tube tech to allow more silicon to be used in the anode storage capacity may double.

But going from bench to mass manufacturing takes time. OLED panels were first demonstrated back in the late 1990's, similar time to the first lihtium ion cells, but even now they are still expensive to manfacture.

I hope Toyota really are working on an EV, but talk is very cheap, I've been following EV developments for the last 3 year and news of 'revolutionary' Battery techs is almost a weekly claim by someone, yet the only people production products you can buy is Panasonic/LG/Samsung - These guys are deadly silent on future Battery development because they know better than announce to their competitors their development pathways.

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  • Club Hybrid Poll

  • 207 Hybrid Reliability

    1. 1. If you were to consider buying a Hybrid model over 5 years old, would you be worried about the reliability of the Hybrid system?


      • Not really as Hybrid systems are always reliable
      • Not if it had a Manufacturers Warranty on the Hybrid system
      • I would not buy a Hybrid model over 5 years old