Lexus dropping 2.0T for U.K.

[noby76]

But the IS model has always been s sports saloon since gen1. No need to differentiate as the difference is already there and have been stated by manufactures. Lexus IS250, IS200t, Honda Accord 2.4 which by the way is sold as Acura TSX in US are all dubbed as entry Level Luxury cars any one who knows a thing or two about cars will know entry level luxury cars also stands for or can be translated as Compact/Sports Saloons due to their size of course..

High Performance Sports Saloons are your IS-F's. M3's and RS4's.  manufactures already know this..nothing new to differentiate here..

"That is exactly what I was complaining all along - for me it doesn't feel "sporty", to be more precise it feels anything but sporty - unrefined, trashy, underpowered... that is what comes to my mind."

unrefined? IS200T is refined for a 4 cylinder turbo engine video proved.

Trashy? subject to individual preference you think it is i think its not

Underpowered? official Lexus numbers confirms is more powerful than an IS250 V6

I think you are ruling out everything else about the IS200t and only basing your perception around  a V6 engine 'noise' which is a big mistake.

 

[Linas.P]

"entry Level Luxury also stands for Compact/Sports Saloons"- your definition not a fact. I am not saying you wrong, it is just not how the cars are defined. Manufacturers will use definitions for marketing purposes and there are Dacia Logan Sport with 66hp ... is it Sport saloon just because Dacia says so?

"High Performance Sports Saloons" - your definition again.

"unrefined? IS200T is refined for a 4 cylinder turbo engine video proved" - Video proven for me, what I already knew - it sounds trashy nothing more - maybe I am missing something - which part of the video showed it being refined? 

"Trashy? subject to individual preference you think it is i think its not "- ditto

"Underpowered? official Lexus numbers confirms is more powerful than an IS250 V6" - I said sounds/feels under-powered, implying it is my perception of the way it deliver power, I am not blind it is 245 to 204hp, but sitting inside and flooring it I would give "finger in the air figure" of ~150ag. I have never stated IS250 v6 is more powerful. For the sake of argument I owned IS250AWD and due to the way transmission distributed power it felt under-powered, hence I not liked it - same engine, completely different experience.

I already said that times and times again - for my taste IS200t doesn't have place in Lexus range, it can be called Toyota Avensis Sport or whatever else. It would be interesting how it would fit CT... I guess it would be quite good match. So again... same engine in hot hatch would be fine for me, but no in 1600kg IS.

[Linas.P]

Oh... and one more thing - people don't like it and it doesn't sell. So much in fact that Lexus themselves just write off millions in development cost and dropping it from the range - is that sign of great engine? Don't think so....

[noby76]

12 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

"entry Level Luxury also stands for Compact/Sports Saloons"- your definition not a fact. I am not saying you wrong, it is just not how the cars are defined. Manufacturers will use definitions for marketing purposes and there are Dacia Logan Sport with 66hp ... is it Sport saloon just because Dacia says so?

"High Performance Sports Saloons" - your definition again.

"unrefined? IS200T is refined for a 4 cylinder turbo engine video proved" - Video proven for me, what I already knew - it sounds trashy nothing more - maybe I am missing something - which part of the video showed it being refined? 

"Trashy? subject to individual preference you think it is i think its not "- ditto

"Underpowered? official Lexus numbers confirms is more powerful than an IS250 V6" - I said sounds/feels under-powered, implying it is my perception of the way it deliver power, I am not blind it is 245 to 204hp, but sitting inside and flooring it I would give "finger in the air figure" of ~150ag. I have never stated IS250 v6 is more powerful. For the sake of argument I owned IS250AWD and due to the way transmission distributed power it felt under-powered, hence I not liked it - same engine, completely different experience.

I already said that times and times again - for my taste IS200t doesn't have place in Lexus range, it can be called Toyota Avensis Sport or whatever else. It would be interesting how it would fit CT... I guess it would be quite good match. So again... same engine in hot hatch would be fine for me, but no in 1600kg IS.

can we move on this is not making sense no more

 

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Oh... and one more thing - people don't like it and it doesn't sell. So much in fact that Lexus themselves just write off millions in development cost and dropping it from the range - is that sign of great engine? Don't think so....

GS460 sold less than 450h does it make the 450h a better car besides emissions and fuel consumption? for the car enthusiast NO   .. we all know hybrid technology is where Lexus is really pushing thier energy and resources doesnt make the 200t an inferior package was not marketed well.. noticed most lexus adverts on tv are for hybrid models?  

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, noby76 said:

can we move on this is not making sense no more

GS460 sold less than 450h does it make the 450h a better car besides emissions and fuel consumption? NO  .. we all know hybrid technology is where Lexus is really pushing thier energy and resources doesnt make the 200t an inferior package was not marketed well.. noticed most lexus adverts on tv are for hybrid models?  

Makes perfect sense for me, I just don't think you are trying to understand. I don't like the way IS200t delivers power, there is no hidden agenda or some tricky way to read between the lines. Just don't like the engine, don't like the sounds of it, nor power delivery - what exactly you don't understand.

Don't know, have not tried GS460, I am sure I would have liked it just purely on the fact it is 4.6l NA V8...  1UR-FE easily one of the best engines ever made. The point you missing here, both GS450h and GS460 are capable cars, which can deliver more power then one needs on normal day with ease. IS200t, IS300h are actually below the level of what I need and they make me feel that way. IS250 is as well just below what I need, but Lexus somehow manages the trick of balancing it the way I don't feel like it... hard to say - maybe that NA engine without turbos or hybrid gears just feels more natural.

As well IS200t not only sold less... they are actually discontinuing it, full stop. GS460 may sold less, but in mid-life-cycle they didn't come and said... no actually pull the plug! That actually means it is very bad.

[noby76]

20 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Makes perfect sense for me, I just don't think you are trying to understand. I don't like the way IS200t delivers power, there is no hidden agenda or some tricky way to read between the lines. Just don't like the engine, don't like the sounds of it, nor power delivery - what exactly you don't understand.

point I am trying to make is fact that you dislike it does not make it inferior in any way shape or form. its your own point of view on the matter am glad we can both understand this.. a quick market cure for the IS200t would be to tweak boost pressure and a few changes to make more power from it and market it as face lift model but  as already confirmed previously hybrid is where energy is being channelled for lexus hence they really dont care by pulling the plug. doesnt mean the engine, its power + chasis package does not work.

[Linas.P]

Yes... don't forget you or anyone else liking it doesn't make it superior in any way shape or form. It is simple like vs. dislike. More telling thing is that it is being dumped. As well look to US, if Lexus themselves would have had any hopes they wouldn't have 350 introduced. They simply know that 2.0t or Turbo as they call it in US is complete cheapo minimal buy-in into the brand. So if you considering Toyota Camry (or equivalent) you can get into owning "premium" brand for just few $ more. Then they actually have IS300, which actually is bigger jump from IS Turbo, than Camry to IS Turbo. Then you as well have IS350 which is bit more expensive than IS300. Kind of the reason why it is no brainier to go with IS300, because it is kind of mediocre, compared with 350, which is proper performance car.

What it shows... is that Lexus never intended IS200t to represent their brand or stand for "Sport saloon" badge it is meant to be cheapest Lexus you can buy... that is exactly how it feels.

Tweetking boost would not improve the power that much, just reduce reliability and increase consumtion (which is already high) and at leas for me that wouldn't change anything, it is still awful engine completely out of Lexus character. What they can do is to take all remaining engine ... and dump them in Marianas Trench ( Just joking - I know awfully not eco friendly)... for real they can make limited edition of CT200t only available in F-Sport trim, I might even be interested in trying one.

[noby76]

Tell that to all the other premium car manufactures who have gone the same route with smaller displacement 2.0 L4 + turbo charging and they will laugh at you. 

[Linas.P]

Just now, noby76 said:

Tell that to all the other premium car manufactures who have gone the same route with smaller displacement 2.0 L4 + turbo charging and they will laugh at you. 

I have not tried all other manufacturers, nor it doesn't means they engines are as bad. Equally, I don't really like they did that and I would not considering car with 2.0t, but that is why if you don't like 2.0t you can always choose different engine with all other manufacturers... which is not the case with Lexus. So 2.0t is not that big problem in itself (even though truly awful), but the fact in UK you basically have no choice.

[peachy]

At the end of the day it's not hard to see why lexus have decided to pull the plug on the is200t in the uk.

The majority of people looking to buy a 2 litre turbo charged vehicle are looking for a powerful and rapid car.

The lexus turbo simply does not cut the mustard compared to the majority of 4 pot turbos available today. Nobody wants it.

Yes sure it's quicker than the 250 but for a modern 2 litre turbo its a snail.

[Linas.P]

Just looking to BMW330 which is 2.0t - and from similar power 252hp/350Nm it makes 5.9s acceleration, which is properly quick and I have no doubts - feels that way. So it is not like BMW boosted some extra PSI on turbo, they just manages better with power, whereas Lexus for some unknown reason takes extra 2s and actually feels like "being not sure if it wants to accelerate".

And again fair point by @peachy - you are comparing power/acceleration between the cars which are 10 years apart.

[J Henderson]

Exactly. To be a viable option, the 200t really needed to be more sporty & aggressively-tuned and offer a significantly different experience to the hybrid to earn more sales. I personally haven't driven a car with this engine, but if it came to spending my own money, there's no way I would opt for it, even if it is the best of a bad bunch. I would get a 300h instead, simply because it makes more sense.

The 2.0T should've had at least 280BHP on tap. Then it would maybe have had a chance at tapping into the market where people just buy something a bit more exciting (Golf R, S3, WRX STi, M140i etc) for similar money. Let's not forget that an IS200t is a 40K car, plus those other cars offer a manual gearbox option. Not such a big deal these days, but still, it was another reason to look at another marque instead of choosing Lexus...

 

A lack of ambition was shown by Lexus with this engine IMO and it's cost them. It was no doubt left in conservative/bland character to be inoffensive and meet emissions & fuel economy targets first and foremost, and in the US market at least, not to step on the toes of the 3.5 V6 (which is still available and has been delivering a reliable 306hp for over a decade). In Europe, they probably could've saved themselves a lot of money by just continuing to offer the 4GR 2.5 V6 as an alternative to the hybrid.

 

As for the IS being a sports saloon? Nope, not in this country. I don't think it's ever been marketed in this fashion. Sport/F-Sport, just trim levels...The IS-F and the Altezza RS200 are the only genuinely sporty models in the entire "IS" history. For me, "Compact Executive" sums up the Lexus IS. I view the IS (and the entire brand as a whole) as more of a rival to Mercedes or Jaguar (ie: more geared towards luxury & refinement than performance).

 

[Linas.P]

@J Henderson - I agree with most above, but not sure about 280hp. As in my previous post BMW430/330i manages 5.9s from 255hp on 2.0t engine. What it tells to me is that BMW somehow managed to be much more efficient with power delivery, still keeping emissions under control, but not compromising acceleration. That means slack is not in the engine...

As well it is sad for me that they decided to drop 4GR in favour of 2.0t, with modern tuning and few upgrades the engine could have been viable option alongside 300h. Same actually can be said about 300h itself, for me it seems that developing new 2.5 L4 for this configuration - arguable under-powered and bland engine (175hp from 2.5l?!) they could have used 4GR and just plug same batteries alongside and making combined power ~250-250hp, keeping refinement and sound of v6, helping economy with smart electric power tweeting.

I am not trying to deny 4L are inherently more efficient and smaller engines, but at the same time 4GR isn't exactly heavy or inefficient. My understanding that decision was made to reduce costs, because 4L are significantly simpler and cheaper to produce. Overall, it seems Lexus went on cost saving with IS mk3 and RC. I can give countless examples where it become worse in comparison with mk2 (without even considering mk2 being 10 years older).

[noby76]

30 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

@J Henderson - I agree with most above, but not sure about 280hp. As in my previous post BMW430/330i manages 5.9s from 255hp on 2.0t engine. What it tells to me is that BMW somehow managed to be much more efficient with power delivery, still keeping emissions under control, but not compromising acceleration. That means slack is not in the engine...

 

Its lighter duhh..

[Linas.P]

42 minutes ago, noby76 said:

Its lighter duhh..

That is poor excuse, if IS is heavier - make it lighter... that means Lexus needs to improve materials and make their car lighter. Use carbon fibre, aluminium, magnesium alloys if that is what necessary to make car behave as it should. Boosting the engine to unreliably high hp and wasting fuel is another option, but it would be inappropriate in many levels.

[noby76]

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

That is poor excuse, if IS is heavier - make it lighter... that means Lexus needs to improve materials and make their car lighter. Use carbon fibre, aluminium, magnesium alloys if that is what necessary to make car behave as it should. Boosting the engine to unreliably high hp and wasting fuel is another option, but it would be inappropriate in many levels.

carbon fibre and the likes? and you expect to pay £35k?   Plastic parts is what makes the BMW lighter  not carbon fibre and BMW will charge you a premium for using plastic parts.. i will keep my Honda/Lexus

[dutchie01]

Lexus like every company needs profits to survive. They make most of their money in the states and quite frankly the UK market is pretty irrelevant to them with only 2% of output sold here. In 2016 only 2408 Lexus IS were sold  in the UK which is bordering on a joke really. ( BMW 3 series in 2016 - 50.000). So offering more models or variants on one model more engines different shapes and so on is just not going to happen. With those tiny numbers they will never be able to create a good businesscase. I honestly think that without the Toyota Bank they would have pulled out of the UK market long ago. 

So instead of dreaming up our ideal lexus with 6 turbos, 12 different satnavs or use of exotic lightweight materials it might be better to just enjoy the car as it is - just a very good above average ride that looks fantastic. Is it the perfect automobile? by no means, but i personally rate it higher than the 3 series or A4. Do me a favor and take them for a spin.

Just appreciate that Lexus is still there, i just love mine!

[Linas.P]

31 minutes ago, noby76 said:

carbon fibre and the likes? and you expect to pay £35k?   Plastic parts is what makes the BMW lighter  not carbon fibre 

I expect the Lexus to deliver the best they can and IS200t is far from even average. When they deliver best they can - I will pay the price they ask. By the way IS200t starts at £39k, I have matched BMW330i with same equipment at £36k. As you mentioned plastics - I tend to disagree F-Sport uses a lot of cheap plastics inside which feels awful and out of place. So much in fact that I raised it with Lexus sales saying it is disgraceful. If BMW manages to reduce the weigh so much that it is meaningful in car performance by using plastics where I don't see or bother - that is welcome.  

Fully opted Lexus is £40k, in fact there are no options to choose from, what is worse for £43k I can max it out with all possible gizmos which Lexus doesn't offer even as optional e.g. 360 camera, self parking and long list of other options. I know for sure that Lexus uses superior leather inside, which means I would need to BMW individual Merino for £1200. In summary BMW330i will be far superior car from any angle for £44k vs £40k Lexus IS. Even if I take extras of BMW it would be still superior carat the same price, but money not being a criteria here BMW wins hands down.

Now one can say - why don't you buy BMW... I might do indeed, but at the moment I would like to buy Lexus if they would care about me as a customer or UK market as a whole and would offer competitive offer. So far I am waiting, at some point my patience going to run out and I will go with competitor.

@dutchie01 - if they going to take UK customers for a joke any longer, they might well be gone. You cannot expect people to appreciate your brand if you not trying yourself. They cannot expect to people to support them, whilst they are selling mediocre models. I have taken IS200t and RC300h for a spin and don't like them both in comparison to my current ageing IS250SEL.

[noby76]

Buy a BMW and make yourself happy... looks like BMW are not using good plastic then cus I am not hearing of plastic part failures on Lexus cars. and when i say plastic i meant engine parts not interior parts.

orrautosport.com/bmw-cooling-system-repair-recommendations/

[Linas.P]

It is undeniable that Lexus is more reliable than BMW. But that is not an excuse to make underpowered and overweight cars, with cheapo plastic in interior. What you need to consider as well, that except me you and few others, for majority it doesn't matter if car is going to roll past 200k miles or over 10 years. Majority of premium cars in UK are leased, which means what matter is 3 first years, to be safe on resale and depreciation 6 years max. What is more Lexus being so reliable car doesn't seems to impact residual values on used cars, so maybe they need to market this bit more?

Your link does not work, but just from link I believe that cooling system will contain quite a lot plastic in any car.

[dutchie01]

Linas as you apparently cannot find your pick in the current Lexus range and feel they are underpowered overweight mediocre cars with cheapo materials please try to find a make and model that suits your tastes better, buy it and move on.

[Linas.P]

Surely, I can do that exactly that... but Lexus not going to become better by virtue of the fact people going to abandon them and complain less. 

We won't have any productive discussion if some of us not going to admit Lexus not really trying nowadays... 

[noby76]

it is what it is and we have the Lexus models we have in UK.. we can either accept it or move onto another manufacturer...I did.. never owned a Honda before and have always liked the looks of CL9 Accords so decided to give one a go... But to keep going on and on about how limited Lexus engine choices are in UK and how trashy the 2.0t is, is a bit tiring..

nothing we can do about it majority of IS models which can compete easily with what BMW, Merc and Audi has to offer in terms of like for like performance are only available in the US. And truthfully speaking in the 'real' world performance difference between the f-sport 200 t and say the 328i BMW will not be night and day. a 1 sec difference between them from 0-60 we all know that alone does not tell the whole story of a cars true performance as seen some cars loose 0-60 but win or keep up on in gear accelerations. on paper the BMW has the edge but its wont be night and day.

And if you want to stay Japanese and wnat 330/340 performance you can just go with the Q50 or G37 Infiniti with their 3.7, 3.0T or 3.5 Hybrids V6 engines as they all come in auto not the CVT you dislike and  thier styling bit on the conservative side  dont know about you  but i do like a wolf in sheeps clothing anyway.

 

 

[Linas.P]

My original comment was - "I am happy they are dropping that trashy engine and hope they will replace it with something reasonable". That is exactly what I think.

In terms of 328i... that is not an option on BMW side. You have either cheapest of the cheap 320i 2.0t or more reasonable 330i which is as well 2.0t just tuned differently (not over-boosted btw, just 255hp). Furthermore, you exactly on my point - "1 sec difference between them from 0-60 we all know that alone does not tell the whole story". Exactly, IS200t feels complete junk and being only 1s slower it feels like slower by the eternity. Maybe now you understand why I am saying IS250 feels many times better even when being actually slower than IS200t. And sadly I haven't tried Bmw 430i... (probably need to fix this soon).

I don't like looks or build quality of Infinity as well, 3.0T is not reasonably priced, nor efficient (actually much worse in any measurable way that RC350 or BMW440i for that matter).

[dougie175]

Anyone else feel like this is just going round and round in circles now?