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As we all know the insurance market is a cartel. In Ireland anyway, over the last two years we've seen 60 to 70 % increase in premiums. And that's coincidently across ALL insurance companies.

Would it not make sense that insurance companies would benefit from sharing blame? Not just to reduce the burden of the payout, but also to remove the no claims bonus of both parties. I'd love to do the maths on that.

Throwing out the buyer beware card is ridiculous. As John said above, it is a legal requirement to have insurance not a nice to have. They have all of the leverage in the transaction. This was reduced a little by competition in the market but as I said above, the cartel arrangement negates this.

Sorry for the rant but in my eyes, car insurance companies come a close second to car rental companies in terms of unethical behaviour. 

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2 hours ago, Malc said:

I would hesitate to suggest that your own repair is an insurance job at @ £1000 ........  but if you wasn't to claim for your repair costs and just paid out a local bodyshop guy it might get down to @£150 with a bit of persuasion and a bottle of scotch !  ( what's your excess I wonder )

Swap the bent wheel for the spare ( if you have one the same ? )  and make zero claim on your own insurance IF the other guy is accepted as being 100% at fault.

A pain in the butt I know but you've got to play those insurers at their own game, they will push you into the best situation for them, whether or not it's in YOUR best interests.

Malc

 

As a qualified VDA, the wing requires replacement, also the mirror surround appears to be cracked so replacement required, further investigation would be required to ensure no further damage to the mirror, the alloy wheel and tyre should both be replaced as it is impossible to check a tyre is fit for purpose visually, again the alloy has taken an impact and could contain a hairline crack only way to know if this is safe is to x-ray the alloy or replace to be safe. 

The the bumper requires a strip repair and paint and the R/F door requires a strip and blend.

Please when you do have these repairs completed ask for a copy of the estimate and upload it so people can understand the work involved and can stop putting these couple of hundred pound prices on here and missing half the damage

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1 hour ago, sorcerer said:

Weasel words Peter. You're not a lawyer by any chance, are you?

It's a rip off because it's a legal necessity and the insurance companies can put any requirements, terms and conditions in there knowing that we have no alternative but to accept them if we want to be able to drive.

I have obviously not read the Ts & Cs of every insurance company in existence but I'd bet a month's wages that each and every single one of them will have a clause in the small print that says your premiums will increase whether the accident is your fault or not.

You only need to look at the original post to come to the conclusion that insurance is a rip off in many ways. It only happened yesterday and already, even at this very early stage in the proceedings, with Chris having paid for his insurance and being 100% blameless in this accident, they are even now preparing the ground to at least partially evade their responsibilities. From the initial post:

" I am going through insurance but they have warned me that roundabout incidents are nearly always considered a "Shared Blame"

Yup the worst kind of lawyer, a barstool lawyer... :wink3:

I just dislike the phrase "rip off", to me that describes a transaction in which one is lead to believe one thing and ends up with something completely different. In all these contracts one is advised to read the T&Cs before signing, so one shouldn't be surprised when the inevitable happens.

That all said I fully agree motor insurance is totally unethical in it's implementation. It is a legal requirement, (unless one is wealthy enough to be able to lodge a letter at Lloyds)  not a voluntary purchase and all the companies operate alike. Unfortunately until every car is fitted with dash cams and carry GPS trackers unless there are independant witnesses to the RTC insurers will have to carry the 'reasonable doubt'. 

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4 hours ago, dougie175 said:

As a qualified VDA, the wing requires replacement, also the mirror surround appears to be cracked so replacement required, further investigation would be required to ensure no further damage to the mirror,

I think there is a significant problem with insurers and making cars these days that are not, to put it bluntly, fit for purpose ......  any useful and sensible car repair shop would have a good stab at putting these relatively " minor " blemishes right without replacing ............

go ask your local guy and see what he says about making it " just right " for you , you'd be surprised at what they can do from a purely pragmatic point of view.

I know my indy car mechanic guy buys write-offs from insurance companies auctions cars  where a bumper and a scratch might cost ££thousands to repair by the insurance company BUT a secondhand bumper and a good scrape repair might just cost a few hundred£ or less.

Insurers in the main are write-off merchants and don't do enough to keep premiums down by being pragmatic in most cases.

It's easy for them to just keep increasing premiums coz they know the customer is in a zero position to stop being ripped off.

And no Govt Review or Enquiry whatever will stop this practice .........  they are cheats and thieves in most cases without YOUR interests at heart, just their own money grabbing interests ..............  and no one's going to stop them.

RANT OVER ftb

Malc

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2 hours ago, Malc said:

I think there is a significant problem with insurers and making cars these days that are not, to put it bluntly, fit for purpose ......  any useful and sensible car repair shop would have a good stab at putting these relatively " minor " blemishes right without replacing ............

go ask your local guy and see what he says about making it " just right " for you , you'd be surprised at what they can do from a purely pragmatic point of view.

I know my indy car mechanic guy buys write-offs from insurance companies auctions cars  where a bumper and a scratch might cost ££thousands to repair by the insurance company BUT a secondhand bumper and a good scrape repair might just cost a few hundred£ or less.

Insurers in the main are write-off merchants and don't do enough to keep premiums down by being pragmatic in most cases.

It's easy for them to just keep increasing premiums coz they know the customer is in a zero position to stop being ripped off.

And no Govt Review or Enquiry whatever will stop this practice .........  they are cheats and thieves in most cases without YOUR interests at heart, just their own money grabbing interests ..............  and no one's going to stop them.

RANT OVER ftb

Malc

I think you could do with reading what the responsibility of an insurance company is to the customer in the event of an accident as far as the repair go. for sure we could easily repair that wing but it is an insurance companies responsibility to ensure the vehicle performs in the same way after completing repairs as it would before the accident, filling a bolt on wing full of bog is not going to comply with these rules yes it will look the same but will it perform the same, in so much so that putting filler in bumpers and over or under tighening front wings and bonnet can be the difference between life and death.

Please watch this video 

 This could be someones head when an airbag fires 700 hundredths of a second too late and causes their neck to snap, a tiny difference in the airbag response rate could be down to something as simple as the wing bolts not being correctly torqued or a headlight bracket repaired because that helped keep the car on the road, the airbag system is designed to work with all the components from factory at the correct torque and not full of filler.

VDAs have gone to court over people being killed at 30mph impacts because airbags have fired at the incorrect time because they chose the incorrect repair method outside of the manufacturers repair guidelines, I am unwilling to risk going to prison and have the guilt of someones life on my hands.

Repairing something minor may seem trivial however without knowledge the ability to complete repairs can be very dangerous, I work with insurance companies 6 days a week and believe me if they could save money and repair a car safely they would the last thing they want to do is increase repair costs as all this does is cost them money.

The laws are also set to change in the future with regards to people putting write offs back on the road, they have been written off for a reason, the reason being the cost to repair them correctly outweighs the value of the vehicle hence this opens up the potential issue of the repair cost has to be reduced for it to become financially viable to put the vehicle back on the road and the best way to achieve that in many cases is to complete the repairs without following the manufacturers recommendations and you end up with a car that looks great, drives great but how will it perform in the event of a future accident?

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Sorry that probably sounded like a rant at yourself but it wasn't supposed to be, just trying to highlight the potential dangers of repairing a car incorrectly.

As a VDA we have to re-qualify every 3 years and the main point of our job is not to make the car look like it did before an accident but to make sure it performs the same after the accident, making it look good is just a by product. The repair method isnt chosen by an insurance engineer it is chosen by the VDA unless the engineer over rules the VDA and accepts the responsibility for this, but the liability stops with the VDA not the repairer.

A lot of garages doing repairs are probably not even aware their chosen method could be very dangerous, unfortunately they are not regulated. Back in the good old days you could repair anything as long as it looked right it was right but both design and materials have moved on a long way and incorrectly repairing a modern vehicle can turn a safety feature into something very dangerous.

Also just a bit more info on the video it was originally designed to show the issues of using replica parts like those available from ECP however it is widely used in the industry to educate insurance engineers and VDAs to the issues of increasing a panels mass (adding filler in the wrong areas or too much) or incorrectly torquing the car back together, every piece of a car is now a safety related item and designed to work in perfect harmony together and as time goes on cars will only get more advanced and complicated and these methods will become essential to be followed for everyone's safety, there are already several issues in court with ACC failure due to lack of calibration of the sensors after a bumper repair on a VWG cars.

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Just a note of caution.I too had a recent claim with a  visibly similar amount of damage as yours which initially you might think is 'a cheap fix' .

You can see from the picture that the damage appears minimal. You no doubt would be surprised to know that when the vehicle was properly checked it had sustained nearly £6,000 worth of damage. Basically the entire offiside suspension was very slightly bent out of alignment and nearly everything underneath needed replacement as a result of the wheel taking all the impact and the kinetic energy being absorbed by the suspension components.. The wing was straightened and the bumper repaired. All the expensive damage was hidden.

20170524_133301.jpg

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13 minutes ago, olliesgrandad said:

Just a note of caution.I too had a recent claim with a  visibly similar amount of damage as yours which initially you might think is 'a cheap fix' .

You can see from the picture that the damage appears minimal. You no doubt would be surprised to know that when the vehicle was properly checked it had sustained nearly £6,000 worth of damage. Basically the entire offiside suspension was very slightly bent out of alignment and nearly everything underneath needed replacement as a result of the wheel taking all the impact and the kinetic energy being absorbed by the suspension components.. The wing was straightened and the bumper repaired. All the expensive damage was hidden.

 

My mate would have done it for £300

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1 hour ago, dougie175 said:

My mate would have done it for £300

And the car would never ever drive in a straight line again...... Thanks, the wheel and tyre cost more than that . I value my life more than a botched repair on a high performance car. 

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1 minute ago, olliesgrandad said:

And the car would never ever drive in a straight line again...... Thanks, the wheel and tyre cost more than that . I value my life more than a botched repair on a high performance car. 

Read my reply above it was meant as tongue in cheek. I was the 1 explaining how important it is to repair the car correctly

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now now guys ....  everyone to their own with life's experiences...........  and expectations

I own a classic car capable of about 60/70 mph, dreadful braking distance and poor lights .......... certainly no airbags apart from fresh air .........  if it gets a prang ( heaven forbid ) I'll live with my local body repair shop fixing the problems, a hammer to straighten out the springs and suspension, likewise a body repair hammer to take out the wing creases etc .........

I don't live in fear of some bugger crunching a door in a carpark ( yes, it regularly goes to Waitrose shopping too ) ....  it's a car and probably worth a little more than many nearly new cars on this forum :wink3:

Malc

( by the way it's 85th birthday is in October )

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15 minutes ago, Malc said:

now now guys ....  everyone to their own with life's experiences...........  and expectations

I own a classic car capable of about 60/70 mph, dreadful braking distance and poor lights .......... certainly no airbags apart from fresh air .........  if it gets a prang ( heaven forbid ) I'll live with my local body repair shop fixing the problems, a hammer to straighten out the springs and suspension, likewise a body repair hammer to take out the wing creases etc .........

I don't live in fear of some bugger crunching a door in a carpark ( yes, it regularly goes to Waitrose shopping too ) ....  it's a car and probably worth a little more than many nearly new cars on this forum :wink3:

Malc

( by the way it's 85th birthday is in October )

My point was you cant treat a body repair of your 85 year old car the same as a modern car

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Robb, while I certainly appreciate and agree on what you are saying regarding proper repairs, in the case of a small prang, wouldn't second hand parts still be up to the job?

For example, if a car needed a new front wing, headlight and bumper, wouldn't fitting good condition second hand parts from the same model work equally as well from a performance point of view?

Now I know insurance companies can't get involved with used parts, but it would make it economically viable to buy a write off and repair it yourself.

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@chr15gb for me it seems pretty straight forward case. It is 50/50 on roundabouts with no markings where you can actually go both ways from both lanes, but in your case road markings clearly indicates he made invalid turn based on the marking in his lane 100% his fault (road markings are above all other signs). Good luck with your case... and maybe consider fitting dash cam as well (always installed after the event..)

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4 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Robb, while I certainly appreciate and agree on what you are saying regarding proper repairs, in the case of a small prang, wouldn't second hand parts still be up to the job?

For example, if a car needed a new front wing, headlight and bumper, wouldn't fitting good condition second hand parts from the same model work equally as well from a performance point of view?

Now I know insurance companies can't get involved with used parts, but it would make it economically viable to buy a write off and repair it yourself.

Yes second hand parts would be preferred over none genuine or incorrectly repaired parts you are 100% right, providing the second hand parts are genuine and undamaged and installed with the correct torque settings there should be no adverse effects to the car at all from fitting them.

Insurance companies can get involved with second hand parts and will because the liability is passed to the repairer so if the repairer is willing to use them the insurance company are willing to allow this is some cases to save the vehicle becoming BER (Beyond economical repair)

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That is strange - today on my way home I was hit too... 

Little scratch on the bumper and OSF panel... The more interesting bit is that the other guy did not stop, to be fair to him he probably thought it was "near miss" (as did I). I did not heard or felt anything in the car, though music was loud and it was at the time when I blown the horn. In dash cam video the impact is so clear I don't know how I could have missed it. And all that ~3 minutes drive from home.

20170807_180435.thumb.jpg.4acc95922919636191c276dc3e112481.jpg

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42 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

That is strange - today on my way home I was hit too... 

Little scratch on the bumper and OSF panel... The more interesting bit is that the other guy did not stop, to be fair to him he probably thought it was "near miss" (as did I). I did not heard or felt anything in the car, though music was loud and it was at the time when I blown the horn. In dash cam video the impact is so clear I don't know how I could have missed it. And all that ~3 minutes drive from home.

20170807_180435.thumb.jpg.4acc95922919636191c276dc3e112481.jpg

Bad luck, is your footage good enough to locate the driver and get your car sorted?

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I hope so... Loud music warning:

As well set it at 1080p otherwise I doubt it is possible to see anything..

I always find it a bit hard to feel the distances on these wide angle cameras, realistically it seemed so sudden, but from footage it looks like he just slowly rolled in my lane without indicating. Other point - he actually had to enter the crossroad during red light, because it was already green for me when he entered. Anyway... will see. Other quite annoying thing is that my camera focuses on little scratch on windshield, though there are many occasion where his numbers are clearly visible.

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Well, at least you can clearly make out his number plate.

The real crime here though is your taste in music. :smile:

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Yeah its pretty clear he hit you, think you'll get that one sorted providing they're insured!

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Just to play devil's advocate..

He was slowing to merge left and you accelerated up his inside..?

 

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On 05/08/2017 at 11:13 AM, chr15gb said:

That's exactly my stance, I've completely refuted any blame.

...... but the other guy said ALL the other road users were wrong, and he is right.

This is exactly why I never drive without a dash cam, as its like nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions nowadays. There no question he was in the wrong lane for where he was going, yet had he at least carried out his dodgy lane change in the correct manner, this thread wouldn't exist. 

What I've yet to understand is why dashcams aren't installed at the point of manufacture. 

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I have been kicking myself about not fitting it yet, I had one for years in my old 5 Series.
It is still sat in my garage, I just haven't worked out exactly how to fit or connect it up yet.

This is how it fitted in my BMW, nice and discreet, no suckers on the windscreen, cables routed to a usb in the glovebox.
I don't want a sucker on the screen but can't see any obvious way of fitting it without on this car.

Mobius.jpg

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OK, again as devil's advocate...

The OP was in the Turn Left lane, yet after the incident, accelerated into the Turn Right lane, yet the turn right lane existed  prior to the incident? The other driver continued in the Turn Left lane. Who was in the wrong lane at the time of the incident? What was the OP's intention going forward, what was the other driver's intention?

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