carnut1980

Gs450h engine rattle on start up, tappety, help?

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Hi all, my 2007 Gs450h tends to produce a clattery sound from the engine, when it hasn't been used for a while. I find it more prominent when i have not driven it for at least 3 days, but i have heard it briefly as little as 24 hrs after its last drive.

It sounds like its running dry, like there is no oil present on start up and for the first few seconds of running.

It has full main dealer history, high miles, oil is at correct level ,and is a still the same colour it was when it came out of the bottle.

I have added slick 50 to the oil, but the anomaly is still there. 

Like i say, most of the time i don't hear it, as i use the car a lot, and when it happens its brief, but i want to know what it is.

If i drive it to my mechanic, the issue won't manifest itself, as i will have just used the car.

It sounds like an engine running with no oil, like a bag of spanners, briefly, before going back to its normal, quiet self.

Does the oil pump run off the timing chain, and is it possible that theres a brief delay in it pumping the oil, where, after being used reasonably prior, there is still sufficient oil coating the valves/pistons etc, that the noise isn't heard, if that makes sense?

Cheers all

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Yes, already talked about , d't worry but be sure to use the requested 0W-20 Toyota oil.

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I had the very same last year when my LS was parked up for over a week, I started the engine and people turned round to see what the racket was.  It was just the clatter of the hydraulic valves at the top before the oil reached it.  It only happened once and for two seconds, it's never happened again, although I did get it serviced straight away.  I don't know if there's any mileage in this but one mechanic said the one way valve in the oil filter can become faulty causes the oil to drain down.  Either way it can be a symptom of high miles, although mine had only done 120k.

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It maybe the vvt-i cam gears, ive heard this before on the is250s, that clattering goes as oil pressure is reached in the gears. Its probably loosing oil out of the gears on the rest period then clattering when starting until pressure returns. Complete guess tho without seeing the motor itself

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On 12/17/2017 at 9:34 AM, The-Acre said:

I had the very same last year when my LS was parked up for over a week, I started the engine and people turned round to see what the racket was.  It was just the clatter of the hydraulic valves at the top before the oil reached it.  It only happened once and for two seconds, it's never happened again, although I did get it serviced straight away.  I don't know if there's any mileage in this but one mechanic said the one way valve in the oil filter can become faulty causes the oil to drain down.  Either way it can be a symptom of high miles, although mine had only done 120k.

ok, so you think an oil filter change might do the trick?

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2 hours ago, carnut1980 said:

ok, so you think an oil filter change might do the trick?

It's only what I was told but a new filter and the correct oil can never be a bad thing.  I'm sure it's nothing to be concerned about unless it happens daily.

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2 hours ago, carnut1980 said:

ok, so you think an oil filter change might do the trick?

It happens on the 250. Its not an issue really, just a bit concerning when it happens. Regular oil changes with an engine flush has stopped it from happening on mine (250) although there are instances where it does return but no where near as bad as it did - previous posts describe it well and returning to your car after its been sat for a while sometimes it can be heard when starting up but not always, it depends on the weather (temperature)

I change the oil on mine every 6 months or so along with the filter and an engine flush - every time its changed I get the rattle on initial start up until the reservoir is pressurised and full of oil. Its very rare that it does rattle but now and then it does, when its cold and has sat for a while. Possibly the flush removes any engine gunk from the valve during the oil change as it definitely helps.

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Thanks for the advice, i don't really want to change the oil, as it looks good as new, and i have added a £20 bottle of slick 50 to it. 

Does the oil pump run off the timing chain? Is there a possibility that there is a slight delay in the oil pump doing its thing, on cold start? IE rattley until the oil gets pumped round?

Theres no lights on the dash when it happens, but it is a combination of a bag of spanners, coupled with rough running, i tried to film it on my phone, but it smoothed out before i could!

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I am not sure for the GS as to where the pump is - the rattle will only last, at worst, 1 second. After the oil changes and flushes mine now possibly does it once? a year around Christmas time when its cold outside and its started for the first time after it has sat for around a week or so, even then, the rattle is for less than 1 second but once you have heard it you are tuned to recognising the noise. I am convinced the regular oil changes and engine flushes have all but cured the issue although it is I think mechanical, the flush has helped a lot.

No lights have ever come up on mine and I have not heard of others who have had this issue with the lights coming up either. But, it does not run rough during the rattle, it has never done this while driving, always when stationary at start up. I would be a bit concerned if it done it when hot.

If you define the rough running as more of a "shiver" to best describe it, then you could have an issue with carbon build up, again , this is something that can be managed with regular fuel dosing or using the higher octane fuel for a while?

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Heres the rattle on start up, if you guys can hear it?  What could it be?

rattle.mp4

Its brief, but kind of sounds like machine gun fire

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As ive said already its probably the cam gears loosing pressure on rest period then rattling when starting

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OK, assuming this is the case, whats the cure? Is it an issue? How do i go about explaining this to a potential buyer?

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I did have the same rattle at cold start with my GS450H. It is caused by the oil draining down from the VVT system. I have cured the problem by making up a pre-lube system. It works by storing oil under normal running pressure. The oil is released before the engine is started filling the VVT system and lubricating the rest of the engine before the engine is started. This not only cures the noise, but reduces engine ware by lubricating the parts before they begin to move or have load on them.

John.

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22 hours ago, Britprius said:

I did have the same rattle at cold start with my GS450H. It is caused by the oil draining down from the VVT system. I have cured the problem by making up a pre-lube system. It works by storing oil under normal running pressure. The oil is released before the engine is started filling the VVT system and lubricating the rest of the engine before the engine is started. This not only cures the noise, but reduces engine ware by lubricating the parts before they begin to move or have load on them.

John.

Fab! But how do i go about doing that?  PS does the mileage, or type of oil used, have anything to do with this rattle?

 

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On 3/26/2018 at 8:32 PM, carnut1980 said:

Fab! But how do i go about doing that?  PS does the mileage, or type of oil used, have anything to do with this rattle?

 

I shall shortly be doing a write up on how to make your own  pre-lube system for about £25 complete. They are available as a kit from the US for £250 up.

Basically it is an inverted pressure container with a one way solenoid valve at it's inlet. Oil fills the container under normal engine oil pressure while the engine is running, and held there. Before you start the engine the solenoid is opened, and the oil is pushed round the engine filling it with oil before the engine starts.

A lot of Toyota Lexus models suffer with this rattle at startup. Sometimes changing the grade of oil seems to cure the problem other times not. The Lexus cure for the problem is to change the VVT gears for only a lot of money, and then it's not guaranteed the noise will not come back.

John.

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Super! Is this a DIY job?  I have reasonable knowledge and tools.

Sounds like the head has to come off?

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On 3/27/2018 at 10:26 PM, Britprius said:

I shall shortly be doing a write up on how to make your own  pre-lube system for about £25 complete. They are available as a kit from the US for £250 up.

Basically it is an inverted pressure container with a one way solenoid valve at it's inlet. Oil fills the container under normal engine oil pressure while the engine is running, and held there. Before you start the engine the solenoid is opened, and the oil is pushed round the engine filling it with oil before the engine starts.

A lot of Toyota Lexus models suffer with this rattle at startup. Sometimes changing the grade of oil seems to cure the problem other times not. The Lexus cure for the problem is to change the VVT gears for only a lot of money, and then it's not guaranteed the noise will not come back.

John.


this is very interesting. Did you do the write up? I would like to do this to my own car. 

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I have been busy of late, and not got round to doing the write up, but I will try to do this in the next few days with pictures.
As a pressure vessel I used a non refillable gas cylinder of the type plumbers use on hand held gas blow lamps, and for a flexible high pressure hose to connect to the engine oil supply I used a grease gun hose. These come with the correct threaded fittings at the ends, and are typically around £3 to purchase. They are rated at 10,000 psi more than enough for the circa    50 psi oil pressure the engine produces. A 12 volt DC solenoid suitable for oil virtually completes the parts required apart from a "from memory to be confirmed" a 1/4 bsp "T" piece, and some 1/4 bsp male couplers.
All these parts are available on the Bay.

John.

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