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So now Lexus UK scrapped the non-hybrid cars (IS200t etc..) from their cars in UK, bar the F models and the LC500, how come they done this ?? Apart from the obvious the hybrids sells lot better, are Lexus trying to promote a eco brand image or something ? BMW sell quite abit of their 320i models and I seen quite a few 540i's either way more than before not to mention the 330e and I see lot of new / current shape Audi A4 petrols about again certainly more than before(despite not being hybrids), I guess all this is to do with the VW diesel scandal, so I would of thought even more reason to continue with non hybrid Lexus IS's !! Bad enough we not got the IS350 in first place !!

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I agree it is bad Lexus never introduced the IS350 to the UK. I think it would have sold Like half priced ice lollies on a hot sunny day.

They scrapped the IS200T because it's simply too slow. Well slow for a 2 litre turbo anyway.

People looking to buy a 4 pot turbo have performance in mind and the Lexus fails to deliver. People look elsewhere to the likes of the bmw 328i (2 litre turbo) that hits 60 in under 6 seconds.

The Lexus is at least a second too slow. A second dosn't sound much but on the road it's several car lengths ahead.

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Yes I heard that the 2.0 turbo isn't all that quick or impressive.... even from critics in Asia ! With 245bhp you wouldn't think so ! As it happens I was considering a IS200t as next car what with a auto box not a CVT like my current 300h not that I hate the car or the CVT box - infact it is more enjoyable than I imagined !! I understand the IS200t is called the IS300 for places that continues to sell them, as for IS350 fuel costs and tax be reason so yes wouldn't sold alot, but even if they imported and sold limited units for the minority that would buy it they should of !!

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I remember when i worked at lexus more than 5 years ago now and even before then there was always talk that they would go towards a complete hybrid range. Every car to be hybrid, obviously it would take years but looks like its happening

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1 hour ago, peachy said:

They scrapped the IS200T because it's simply too slow. Well slow for a 2 litre turbo anyway.

They scrapped it because it didn't sell.

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26 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

They scrapped it because it didn't sell.

And it didn't sell because it's too slow for it's class.

@peachy is quite right. People looking to purchase a 2 litre turbocharged petrol vehicle almost certainly have performance in mind. People do their homework before buying and a 0-60 time of just under 7 seconds puts them off. I know its a heavy car but Lexus could have easily improved the performance without sacrificing reliability. 

If this car had a 0-60 time of say 5.7 - 6 seconds I'm sure a lot more would have been sold and still available for sale today.

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There are multiple reasons, ultimate performance isn't the only one. Most Lexus vehicles are sold to business users looking for BIK which means the hybrids are a great choice. Some don't like the CVT but the emissions and economy of the 200T weren't competitive so they go elsewhere or just compromise on the 300h.

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On 31/01/2018 at 8:22 PM, peachy said:

I agree it is bad Lexus never introduced the IS350 to the UK. I think it would have sold Like half priced ice lollies on a hot sunny day.

They scrapped the IS200T because it's simply too slow. Well slow for a 2 litre turbo anyway.

People looking to buy a 4 pot turbo have performance in mind and the Lexus fails to deliver. People look elsewhere to the likes of the bmw 328i (2 litre turbo) that hits 60 in under 6 seconds.

The Lexus is at least a second too slow. A second dosn't sound much but on the road it's several car lengths ahead.

Probably the biggest load of gumph I've read on this forum....

On 31/01/2018 at 10:30 PM, Rebecca said:

And it didn't sell because it's too slow for it's class.

@peachy is quite right. People looking to purchase a 2 litre turbocharged petrol vehicle almost certainly have performance in mind. People do their homework before buying and a 0-60 time of just under 7 seconds puts them off. I know its a heavy car but Lexus could have easily improved the performance without sacrificing reliability. 

If this car had a 0-60 time of say 5.7 - 6 seconds I'm sure a lot more would have been sold and still available for sale today.

lol

 

As stated most Lexus are sold to business users and this didn't fit as per ColinBarbers post.

 

Still sold in the US, a great car. If I want performance I don't do Lexus but the IS200t is no slouch (far quicker than the IS250) and far more economical and of course bomb proof. 

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3 minutes ago, doog442 said:

(far quicker than the IS250)

Do we have a popcorn smiley? Anyone? I'm looking for a popcorn smiley...

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On 31/01/2018 at 10:47 PM, ColinBarber said:

There are multiple reasons, ultimate performance isn't the only one. Most Lexus vehicles are sold to business users looking for BIK which means the hybrids are a great choice. Some don't like the CVT but the emissions and economy of the 200T weren't competitive so they go elsewhere or just compromise on the 300h.

I would challenge you on that, with 2017 rule changes now the car has to be under 75g Co2 to be tax effcient, as such not a single Lexus qualifies. Car has to be PHEV or EV to be really beneficial e.g. BMW 330e. Lexus 300h or even 200h no longer qualifies. Only if you are business owner yourself i.e. you have your own company then you can benefit from marginally lower BIK, but nowhere near as you would gain from PHEV... so Lexus lost business buyers interest as well.

It makes no sense they do no offer PHEV and reasonable performance.. e.g. again same BMW 330e 49g Co2 and 6.1s 0-60. In other hand I have tired getting EV and PHEV and realistically I cannot charge it, so from practical point of view standard hybrids still make sense, but government decided to kill them far prematurely, before they even had a chance to replace diesels.   

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11 hours ago, peachy said:

Far quicker than the IS250 and more economical 🤣🤣🤣

What planet you living on pal?

Too many beers perhaps?

What we need is an IS250, an IS200t, a set of traffic lights and a boy racer in an ST200. You 'give the nod' and we will scientifically prove beyond all reasonable doubt how quick our motors are :tongue:.

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Are people actually debating this? A series III 200t vs series II 250, there is no comparison.

The 200t has quite a bit more power, a lot more torque which is available from much lower revs, has a much faster gear changing transmission and has more ratios too which keep the engine within maximum power for longer and with lower first gear for better initial acceleration. The vehicles weight about the same, the 200t very slightly heavier.

Once you get to bends then it gets even worse for the 250. The series III chassis and suspension set up massively out-handles the series II.

 

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But the 250 was never designed with performance in mind. The IS200T was and for a 2 litre turbo it's very underpowered. Put it against say a Vauxhall VXR or ST and the Lexus will be left for dead. Infact I can't think of a modern 2 litre turbo thats actually slower than the Lexus.

I've said before, people looking for a 2 litre turbo have performance in mind. That's why the Lexus hardly sold and was scrapped in the UK shortly after it was introduced. 

I've drove a 200T for the day and it's anything but fast. Slightly quicker than the 250 but with a dreadful sounding engine.

The second biggest mistake Lexus ever made. The first being the IS220D.

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But, but. but  :wink3:

Are we really comparing a Vauxhall with a Lexus on a Lexus form :laugh:...yes we are !! When did LOC go all boy racer on me ?

Many cars have a turbo strapped to them nowadays and joe public are largely unaware. Yet strapping one to a Lexus is suddenly seen as a go faster marketing tool by two posters on this site and no one else - not even Lexus. 

My father in laws Skoda has a turbo on it, my daughters mini has one as well. I don't see them thrashing the seven bells out of them and comparing them to 'anything else with a turbo' ..ok the daughter probably does but she has no idea it has a turbo on it, what it does and why. 

Lets no forget that it was the IS250 that lost Lexus the vast proportion of its UK market share when it was introduced as the replacement for the IS200/300. 

Perhaps we can analyse that fact and come up with some constructive reasons as to why. 

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2 hours ago, Rebecca said:

But the 250 was never designed with performance in mind. The IS200T was and for a 2 litre turbo it's very underpowered. Put it against say a Vauxhall VXR or ST and the Lexus will be left for dead. Infact I can't think of a modern 2 litre turbo thats actually slower than the Lexus.

I've said before, people looking for a 2 litre turbo have performance in mind. That's why the Lexus hardly sold and was scrapped in the UK shortly after it was introduced. 

I've drove a 200T for the day and it's anything but fast. Slightly quicker than the 250 but with a dreadful sounding engine.

The second biggest mistake Lexus ever made. The first being the IS220D.

I'm not sure where the belief that the 200t was positioned as a high performance car comes from? It was positioned as having better performance than the 300h and was a replacement for the IS250. The turbo is really there for emissions and low end torque. If they wanted performance that would have given it more boost and 280 bhp.

The 200t is substantially quicker than the series II IS250. Maybe it doesn't feel like it because it doesn't have the dreadful road noise the series II produces because it is better insulated.

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4 hours ago, Rebecca said:

 Infact I can't think of a modern 2 litre turbo thats actually slower than the Lexus.

I've said before, people looking for a 2 litre turbo have performance in mind. That's why the Lexus hardly sold and was scrapped in the UK shortly after it was introduced. 

 

Let me assist you then. 

Current makes / models for sale with 4 pot 2 litre turbo engines with roughly the same or worse boy racer  0- 60 times to the IS200t if that's your thing..which I guess it is. Approx same price range / weight etc

Skoda Octavia VRS standard or 230 (6.7)

Vauxhall Insignia 2.0 Turbo (6.9)

Jaguar 2.0 EX as above (6.7 )

BMW 3 series 320i (7.2 )

Audi A4 TFSI (7.2 )

These may well be the bulk of 2 litre petrol turbo charged engines sold in the UK . Even the new Golf GTI is only marginally quicker at 6.4 seconds whilst much lighter. I'l'll concede they may have slightly better fuel economy but they all have one thing in common : They aren't a Lexus.  

Why haven't these cars been discontinued? Manufacturers have various derivatives of their engines. Skoda have the VRS 245, Audi the TFSI Quattro for example, Jaguar the F type and BMW the 330i .Yes they are faster,  as is a F1 1.6 engine but I think you're being highly selective if you think Lexus had any intention of competing with these. Which is a shame really as I know we'd all love a better choice.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Rebecca said:

But the 250 was never designed with performance in mind. The IS200T was and for a 2 litre turbo it's very underpowered. Put it against say a Vauxhall VXR or ST and the Lexus will be left for dead. Infact I can't think of a modern 2 litre turbo thats actually slower than the Lexus.

I've said before, people looking for a 2 litre turbo have performance in mind. That's why the Lexus hardly sold and was scrapped in the UK shortly after it was introduced. 

I've drove a 200T for the day and it's anything but fast. Slightly quicker than the 250 but with a dreadful sounding engine.

The second biggest mistake Lexus ever made. The first being the IS220D.

Who said the 200t was designed with performance in mind? :censored:

It was designed as a pure petrol engine for those who didn't want a hybrid. It was also designed as a base engine for the U.S. If it had any more power, it'd be snapping on the heels of an IS350. 

The reason it didn't sell was due to one reason - IS300h, simple as that. Private buyers opted for the 300h as well as company car drivers simply due to the numbers on the sheet - i.e. £0-20 road tax, 60+mpg and better residuals

Edited by ColinBarber
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Savageese channel on YouTube has a nice review of the 200t







Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

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4 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

 

The 200t is substantially quicker than the series II IS250. Maybe it doesn't feel like it because it doesn't have the dreadful road noise the series II produces because it is better insulated.

Simply not true Colin. At present I own both a IS250 and IS-F and have never experienced dreadful road noise. Infact they produce hardly any road noise.

also having drove a 200T and putting it through it's paces I can say it's anything but substantially quicker. I thought it was slightly quicker.

Also the IS200T has very noticeable lag especially when a quick start is required. Also when you kickdown it seems to take an age for the turbo to kick in.

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Who said the 200t was designed with performance in mind? :censored:



I saw it ;)

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

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3 hours ago, Rebecca said:

Simply not true Colin. At present I own both a IS250 and IS-F and have never experienced dreadful road noise. Infact they produce hardly any road noise.

also having drove a 200T and putting it through it's paces I can say it's anything but substantially quicker. I thought it was slightly quicker.

I haven't driven one for quite some time but when I had a couple as courtesy vehicles I was shocked at the amount of road noise. I was driving a GS430 at the time so it was always going to be noisier but the amount was significant. Maybe at the time Lexus was using a particularly poor tyre model.

Official figures are substantially different. 0-62 mph times are 7.0 vs 8.4 (or 8.1 for manual transmission).

People always state the IS250 is faster than the official figures, that is true but so is the IS200t. Car and driver tested figures are 6.5s vs 7.1s 0-60 mph, with the 7.1 being achieved by the faster manual IS250, as they didn't test the auto. Street start is more real world and shows a greater different due to the lack of low end power of the IS250 engine - 7.6s vs 8.4s for 5-60 mph.

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Hmmm🤔 I'm pretty sure the recorded time of 7.1 seconds was achieved in an IS250 F-sport meaning it's an automatic as a manual F-sport was never produced. 

I can't find any recorded time of the turbo hitting 60 in under 6.8 seconds. Even if it did achieve it in 6.5 seconds it hardly makes it significantly quicker than the IS250. A bmw 328/ 330i would be classed as significantly quicker with 0-60 times in the mid 5's.

I've drove both cars and the difference is minimal. I much prefer the 250 for that addictive V6 sound. The turbo is not a nice sounding engine. Trust me.

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In the price range IS200t went against BMW 330i (2.0T) and not 320i (2.0t), BMW 330i 5.9s... well that is much faster. The IS250 and IS200t difference of ~0.5s is something I surprised I have noticed at all. IS200t has better mid/low torque, but as noted by others has massive hesitation of the line  - I don't know if that is turbo or gearbox related. As well massive confusion on Auto-kickdowns. If you are in the right gear to begin with - yes it has reasonable mid-torque.

Now all that "sports" versus "luxury" debate is bit silly, because according to Lexus brochures it mean to be both. In real world it is neither - the rattly 200t engine takes all there is to take away from the luxury feel - comparing apples to apples I believe slower Mk3 IS250 is "luxury on another level" from IS200t, even 300h feels more luxurious and relaxing when driving. And they added not enough sportiness, because it is simply slow compared to contemporary sports cars.

Nobody, said IS200t was meant to be high performance car, what it mean to be is sports car and it failed miserably. In UK it was named simply IS200t, but in the states it was called "THE TURBO" (yes in capitals and bold). If that doesn't give you the clue what Lexus wanted it to be... I don't know what then.. 

Fact check - Lexus sold similar numbers of mk2 as they did mk1. Over life time Lexus sold ~14200 IS250 (not counting mk3) and ~ 15800 IS220d/200d... overall ~30000.

Lexus Sold ~31000 IS200 and another 1700 of IS300, so lets say ~32700. But that includes ~1400 "sport-cross", so a bit of oranges vs. apples.. Saloon vs. saloon figure would be 30k vs. 31.3k... not massive difference, not something you would call "decline". However, worldwide mk2 outsold mk1 3:1. All these numbers are nothing compared to sales flop of only 124 IS200t sold. When they say - we don't bring RC350 in UK, because there is no market for it (and it is not worth certification costs) - surely you cannot sell less then 124 cars... 

The reasons why IS mk2 in UK specifically was partial commercial failure where multiple. Discontinuation of "sportcross", abysmal IS220d which was available only in manual during the times diesel cars were rolling high, lack of mid-tier IS350, strange gear ratios on manual boxes (not suitable for UK speed limits)... and list goes on.. but there is nothing particularly wrong with IS250 Auto.

 

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