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While my car was serviced the salesman I have bought my last 2 cars came for a chat. Apparently the GS is no longer being imported and the last two cars into the Cheltenham dealer will arrive imminently. The thought is that the new ES will replace it. The first UX will arrive Spring 2019.

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Seems odd that they would stop selling the GS before they've even announced its replacement?

 

 

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Am not surprised at all and tobe honest the current model has not done well in terms of sales volume  here in the UK. Some years back I owned a Gen 2 GS 450h and in its days it was a good match for the likes of BM 530i and the Audi A6.

Sadly same cannot be said of the current Gen 3  GS imo. 

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5 hours ago, Fatts said:

Am not surprised at all and tobe honest the current model has not done well in terms of sales volume  here in the UK. Some years back I owned a Gen 2 GS 450h and in its days it was a good match for the likes of BM 530i and the Audi A6.

Sadly same cannot be said of the current Gen 3  GS imo. 

I'd disagree. I would say the Gen 3 wasn't competitive but the current Gen 4 was a very good vehicle - although being 6 years old is a little dated now. (you seem to be a generation out, the GS450h was never available as a gen 2).

Sadly it has never sold well and the rumours of its discontinuation have been circulating for some time now. There is the possibility that it will be discontinued world word once the current generation lifecycle comes to an end.

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That is because Lexus has fully neglected UK market. How can you expect to sell well when you only have 300h and 450h as an option... Even more importantly majority of cars like BMW 5-series are sold on company leases and generally there are 2 types of buyers - the salary sacrifice buyers who needs low Co2 and company feel buyers for high miles, so say BMW and MB are covered BMW 530e eligible for salary sacrifice, 520d for high miles. Lexus covers neither of the niches and is not popular enough for people to buy them outright. 

Lexus would need to do more B2B to maybe get large quantities to say executive taxis, something like GS300h SE/Luxury and they need plug-in hybrid to meet current government law rules. It think the problem is long term strategy for the market e.g. in US Lexus have overall strategy and had it since beginning, hence the one of major Luxury brand there. In UK Lexus never had any strategy, just let the dealers do some selling of subset of their line-up which Lexus deemed suitable for UK market, but consistently got it wrong. Over the time UK became too small for them to care to adapt models to UK specific requirements, yet it is too small because they never really cared to have strategy.

Imagine now if BMW would only sell BMW 118d, 320d, 520d, 730d, X1 2.0d, X3 2.0d, X5 3.0d and then M5 and M4... how long they would be major brand in UK without having any line-up in the middle? In short term 520d and 730d would sell well for B2B, X5 3.0d would be ok as SUV, M4 and M5 would find some enthusiast, but in long term the lack of middle ground would drive enough customers away to destroy them as a brand. Lexus was doing that from beginning so for me it is strange that they are even still around.

GS and RX 450h are last remaining reasonable Lexus models in UK, except of high end performance like GS-F and RC-F and LC. if they going to introduce FWD ES, it is going just further diminish brand until it is going to ultimately vanish from UK. GS 450h may have been a bit of unicorn, but at least it was nice to drive and something to brag about, ES is doing to be outright awful.. why not Toyota Avensis then? 

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That's a bit OTT. The GS has never sold in high numbers, in any of the four generations. Lexus have remained around 0.5% market share of the UK for years - they aren't going for volume sales. You keep complaining that Lexus don't offer many engine options - that is through market forces - the GS250, IS250, IS200T never sold in numbers to keep them around.

The ES is actually quite nice. If that comes to the UK it will be the next generation which will be an improvement again. Audi do okay without RWD.

You need to remember that you aren't Lexus' target market.

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It is the topic... It is not me who is not Lexus target market - it is UK as a whole. The GS never sold in large number, because Lexus strategy was to be exclusive yet they pull it out of the market, because it doesn't sell. Sounds like perpetual loop for me....

FWD car never going to feel right and should have no place in Luxury market. GS250 and mk3 IS250 and 200t were just wrong engines for the wrong market - exactly what I said before. Lexus only sold subset of they selected models, which was wrong subset. If you check what models BMW sells, I am sure that is going to be by wast majority BMW 320d and 330d, because "coal" was a thing in UK for long time, BMW 525 are probably rarer then GS and BMW 325i and 330i are very niche as well. Actually, even after this "diesel gate" diesel cars still sells better than any hybrids and now with new UK laws "self charging" hybrids like 300h have no place either - well done government, by trying to cut down Co2 limits you again have shoot yourself in the foot and de-incentivised hybrids.... So the only type which still has a place are "plug-in" which Lexus does not have - well done Lexus, you have no single car which would be competitive in UK market.

I am sure Lexus/Toyota has everything what it needs to release plug-in hybrids in UK, but by now market is too small for them to care. 

In summary Lexus has not single car in their line-up which is right for UK market:

  • 300h and 200h meant to be boring compliance vehicles, but are no longer compliance with current tax law,
  • 450h is actually great engine, but lacks suitable body ... like RC. And whereas in US it is considered as "green option" and is cool in UK we have different attitude.
  • And then there are F-Marque and LC - all great cars, but no brand can survive on "halo" cars alone (Lexus, not exactly Maserati, or Porsche - even those to doing better with diesel options).

So as I said before, either Lexus starts taking this market seriously and introduce every model with engines from 1.8 to 5.0L in 0.5L increments or it will forever be niche player, which it seems to want to be and just alienates some real brand followers. 

My only take is that I am sad to see GS450h to go as that was the only remaining reasonable platform on offer and with it goes away any hopes of seeing some other models using this engine.

Now obviously, UX throws some twist into the mix... but it is building the on wrong substance - fighting Nissan Qashqai/Juke on school runs and football mums...  who have no clue what makes a good car and SUV "just feels safer". That only means bad news for any actual cars enthusiast who wants good cars... like GS450h was

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I for one am glad Lexus is a niche player


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1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

In summary Lexus has not single car in their line-up which is right for UK market:

Well you are obviously wrong, otherwise they wouldn't sell any vehicles.

The GS may seise production, mainly because the GS sales figures have dropped. In the past it sold very well. In the UK the additional models (CT, NX and now UX) make keeping the GS too expensive and unnecessary.

In 2016, the BMW 525 sold about 3 to 1 compared to the GS (300h and 450h combined). Other years are similar.

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1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

It is the topic... It is not me who is not Lexus target market - it is UK as a whole. The GS never sold in large number, because Lexus strategy was to be exclusive yet they pull it out of the market, because it doesn't sell. Sounds like perpetual loop for me....

FWD car never going to feel right and should have no place in Luxury market. GS250 and mk3 IS250 and 200t were just wrong engines for the wrong market - exactly what I said before. Lexus only sold subset of they selected models, which was wrong subset. If you check what models BMW sells, I am sure that is going to be by wast majority BMW 320d and 330d, because "coal" was a thing in UK for long time, BMW 525 are probably rarer then GS and BMW 325i and 330i are very niche as well. Actually, even after this "diesel gate" diesel cars still sells better than any hybrids and now with new UK laws "self charging" hybrids like 300h have no place either - well done government, by trying to cut down Co2 limits you again have shoot yourself in the foot and de-incentivised hybrids.... So the only type which still has a place are "plug-in" which Lexus does not have - well done Lexus, you have no single car which would be competitive in UK market.

I am sure Lexus/Toyota has everything what it needs to release plug-in hybrids in UK, but by now market is too small for them to care. 

In summary Lexus has not single car in their line-up which is right for UK market:

  • 300h and 200h meant to be boring compliance vehicles, but are no longer compliance with current tax law,
  • 450h is actually great engine, but lacks suitable body ... like RC. And whereas in US it is considered as "green option" and is cool in UK we have different attitude.
  • And then there are F-Marque and LC - all great cars, but no brand can survive on "halo" cars alone (Lexus, not exactly Maserati, or Porsche - even those to doing better with diesel options).

So as I said before, either Lexus starts taking this market seriously and introduce every model with engines from 1.8 to 5.0L in 0.5L increments or it will forever be niche player, which it seems to want to be and just alienates some real brand followers. 

My only take is that I am sad to see GS450h to go as that was the only remaining reasonable platform on offer and with it goes away any hopes of seeing some other models using this engine.

Now obviously, UX throws some twist into the mix... but it is building the on wrong substance - fighting Nissan Qashqai/Juke on school runs and football mums...  who have no clue what makes a good car and SUV "just feels safer". That only means bad news for any actual cars enthusiast who wants good cars... like GS450h was

Thats one of the silliest things Ive read in a long time 

The market is determined by what sells. SUVs are the "in thing" at the moment so the arrival of the UX couldn't be at a better time. NX sales have been great and the new RX has done very well too compared to generations before it. The UX isn't a competitor to Qashqai or Jukes - its a competitor to the X1 and Q2/Q3 which are better to drive than the juke/qashqai.

This generation of GS never sold well - many people are switching to SUVs and loads will happily put down £55K on an RX, but not on a GS. The same thing is happening across the manufacturers and they're all frantically working on the newest SUV because thats where sales lie.

Porsche has recently got rid of diesel so we all know that its heading down the gutter. They no longer sell a car in the UK with a diesel engine.

Car enthusiasts dont buy GS450h - they buy a GS-F or and RC-F. They buy M cars and AMGs. 

The new platform is absolutely brilliant and I have a feeling the ES/GS whatever is going to be called will be built on that platform providing its RWD. Not many people really care about RWD anyway, most people find it a PITA in the winter and couldn't care less - heck even BMW are moving towards AWD and FWD 

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1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

So the only type which still has a place are "plug-in" which Lexus does not have - well done Lexus, you have no single car which would be competitive in UK market.

I am sure Lexus/Toyota has everything what it needs to release plug-in hybrids in UK, but by now market is too small for them to care. 

I rather suspect that 'self charging' hybrids are more popular than plug-ins. Just look at the catastrophic depreciation of pretty much every plug-in vehicle from every manufacturer, compared to how well many Toyota and Lexus 'self charging' hybrids tend to retain their value. 

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

So as I said before, either Lexus starts taking this market seriously and introduce every model with engines from 1.8 to 5.0L in 0.5L increments or it will forever be niche player, which it seems to want to be and just alienates some real brand followers. 

Lexus will forever be a niche player. It has to be, because that's the only way it can survive. Slightly odd people like me buy cars like the GS purely because they aren't the tiresome Germanic default. The moment they try to copy the endless-variation-on-a-theme approach of Merc or BMW or VAG, they'll lose the only market they can ever have. If you're a Lexus 'brand follower' and you're alienated by their refusal to target the mass market, I would respectfully suggest you've chosen the wrong brand to follow.

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5 hours ago, Ten Ninety said:

I rather suspect that 'self charging' hybrids are more popular than plug-ins. Just look at the catastrophic depreciation of pretty much every plug-in vehicle from every manufacturer, compared to how well many Toyota and Lexus 'self charging' hybrids tend to retain their value. 

Lexus will forever be a niche player. It has to be, because that's the only way it can survive. Slightly odd people like me buy cars like the GS purely because they aren't the tiresome Germanic default. The moment they try to copy the endless-variation-on-a-theme approach of Merc or BMW or VAG, they'll lose the only market they can ever have. If you're a Lexus 'brand follower' and you're alienated by their refusal to target the mass market, I would respectfully suggest you've chosen the wrong brand to follow.

I moved to Lexus from the so called luxury German brands because they are niche. If I am spending large lumps of real money while driving big mileages I expect to be able to get my car serviced and repaired quickly not be told I need to wait 3 weeks for a service. With my experience of Lexus this week I won't be in any rush to go elsewhere. 

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No Diesels no good for the rep mobile crowd ala BMW 520d or in the infamous/typical Vauxhall Insignia SRI (Sales Rep Inside) model.

I love having a car that I hardly see on the road unlike my previous car BMW E60.

 

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Lexus being niche - is undeniably an attraction of the Brand for some\many. Personally I moved to the brand having owned\driven\experienced BMW, Mercedes and Audi, and, quite frankly, Lexus are better. Maybe not in car magazine land where how a car goes around the Nurburgring is top priority, but in real life, where the things that really matter are: build quality, reliability, ride quality, dealerships.

Both my Lexus cars - an IS250 and now a GS250 have real quality in depth. The Germans, in my own experience, are good at flogging a veneer of quality, but lack it in depth. My 13 plate GS never missed a beat, has no quality issues at all. My wife's 16 plate Merc E class has been back to the dealership on a low loader twice, and now has an infotainment fault.

And the reality is also this: Take away M cars, AMG etc and the bulk of their models aren't all that to drive either, and most ride badly. Read any modern BMW review, if you dont spec £thousands of adaptive suspension then "they dont drive like a BMW should" 

I believe the real barriers to Lexus sales in the UK are: 1. styling - its marmite with the current models and 2. Badge snobbery. An Audi says "Im doing well" to more people than a Lexus does. 3. other brands offer much cheaper PCP deals. You can currently get 10k off a brand new Audi A6

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On 09/03/2018 at 11:13 PM, olliesgrandad said:

While my car was serviced the salesman I have bought my last 2 cars came for a chat. Apparently the GS is no longer being imported and the last two cars into the Cheltenham dealer will arrive imminently. The thought is that the new ES will replace it. The first UX will arrive Spring 2019.

The ES replacing GS story has been around since last summer. The 2 cars are virtually the same size, so doesnt on the face of it seem logical to continue to build both. The ES is cheaper and sells in bigger numbers. The GS no longer being imported doesnt sound right- its still on the website, configurator and finance offers

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45 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

Lexus being niche - is undeniably an attraction of the Brand for some\many. Personally I moved to the brand having owned\driven\experienced BMW, Mercedes and Audi, and, quite frankly, Lexus are better. Maybe not in car magazine land where how a car goes around the Nurburgring is top priority, but in real life, where the things that really matter are: build quality, reliability, ride quality, dealerships.

Both my Lexus cars - an IS250 and now a GS250 have real quality in depth. The Germans, in my own experience, are good at flogging a veneer of quality, but lack it in depth. My 13 plate GS never missed a beat, has no quality issues at all. My wife's 16 plate Merc E class has been back to the dealership on a low loader twice, and now has an infotainment fault.

And the reality is also this: Take away M cars, AMG etc and the bulk of their models aren't all that to drive either, and most ride badly. Read any modern BMW review, if you dont spec £thousands of adaptive suspension then "they dont drive like a BMW should" 

I believe the real barriers to Lexus sales in the UK are: 1. styling - its marmite with the current models and 2. Badge snobbery. An Audi says "Im doing well" to more people than a Lexus does. 3. other brands offer much cheaper PCP deals. You can currently get 10k off a brand new Audi A6

Agreed regarding the perceived quality and true quality. I wouldn't own a German brand without an extended warranty after the first 3 years. With Lexus, Ive felt no need to purchase an extended warranty on any of their vehicles. 

With regard to barriers, I agree with number 2 and 3 but not with the styling. The styling is the reason Lexus has taken off in the past few years. Its the reason why NX sales are doing very well. 

You can get 10k off an Audi A6 but there are a few reasons for that - firstly, you have to add a lot of options to get it up to a decent specification. Additionally, the new A6 has been revealed and has been spotted for a while now. Once spy shots start coming out of the next gen, current model prices drop massively. 

Lexus offer £6-7k on a GS as well with a better specification so in reality, there's barely any difference in offered discounts.

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Styling I like personally, and I take your point. 

yes the A6 is a run out model, so is an "exaggerated" example I suppose, but I have recently been offered 10k off a basic SE AVANT with 2 cheap options, best I could get of an executive GS was £4k, and the Audi had 2% lower interest. What I was alluding to is a big difference in monthly payments.... I was just making the point that on top of other factors, bigger volume sellers can (or are willing to) do better  PCP deals..

Still says a lot that on final reckoning, Id rather keep a 13 plate GS than swap it for a brand new Audi. The mrs will will just have to allow the dogs in her car lol

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I really got a bad luck lately. First I owned Honda accord which was slashed then I moved to GS and bang again it is going to disappear. 

Anyone want to get rid of any model let me know I'll buy it and it will be gone in few years ;) But seriously for me now only option from Lexus would be LS which is a bit expensive to buy and I really can't see any other alternative. I don't like German or F cars, Jaguar is not really reliable, most Asian are not premium models..... Maybe I should import something from the Japan like Honda Legend (http://www.honda.co.jp/LEGEND/webcatalog/styling/3d/) :) but then surviving and resell would be a nightmare.

 

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13 minutes ago, Hangie said:

I really got a bad luck lately. First I owned Honda accord which was slashed then I moved to GS and bang again it is going to disappear. 

Anyone want to get rid of any model let me know I'll buy it and it will be gone in few years ;) But seriously for me now only option from Lexus would be LS which is a bit expensive to buy and I really can't see any other alternative. I don't like German or F cars, Jaguar is not really reliable, most Asian are not premium models..... 

 

Infiniti?

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Yes, Infinity Q70 is some alternative that I'm aware of but again I heard they are not the best cars + partnership with Renault :)Finally styling is a little bit odd is there any straight line there ? :)

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On 09/03/2018 at 11:13 PM, olliesgrandad said:

While my car was serviced the salesman I have bought my last 2 cars came for a chat. Apparently the GS is no longer being imported and the last two cars into the Cheltenham dealer will arrive imminently. The thought is that the new ES will replace it. The first UX will arrive Spring 2019.

Does that mean the GS F is being phased out as well?

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5 hours ago, Hangie said:

I really got a bad luck lately. First I owned Honda accord which was slashed then I moved to GS and bang again it is going to disappear. 

Anyone want to get rid of any model let me know I'll buy it and it will be gone in few years ;) But seriously for me now only option from Lexus would be LS which is a bit expensive to buy and I really can't see any other alternative. I don't like German or F cars, Jaguar is not really reliable, most Asian are not premium models..... Maybe I should import something from the Japan like Honda Legend (http://www.honda.co.jp/LEGEND/webcatalog/styling/3d/) :) but then surviving and resell would be a nightmare.

 

Wow. Just had a look at the link and the interior info on the Legend. Krell audio in there. Blimey. And I thought Lexus with ML was a premium partnership.

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The businessplan of Lexus Global is to grow global production by 10% each year. Year on year for the next 5 years and this is succeeding. The brand is currently undergoing a transformation from the previous relentless pursuit of perfection and champion in NVH to design, architecture, lyfestyle. In the process they will alienate older loyal customers but pick up younger ones in the process.  The new M/D wants to be a niche brand alike porsche where people go for styling, image, lyfestyle.

most important market like before will be the states. The UK market is not that important and the Dutch market is, well, neglectable. Dealerships are under the financial umbrella of the Toyota Brand. New models will have bold styling and the older models like the GS will phased out. The ES replacing it will be a brandnew model and not the current one. The volume will come from SUVś in different sizes, already over 50%,  but all premium and competing with the german 3, jag, infiniti.  The UX is expected to sell in big numbers.

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7 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Styling I like personally, and I take your point. 

yes the A6 is a run out model, so is an "exaggerated" example I suppose, but I have recently been offered 10k off a basic SE AVANT with 2 cheap options, best I could get of an executive GS was £4k, and the Audi had 2% lower interest. What I was alluding to is a big difference in monthly payments.... I was just making the point that on top of other factors, bigger volume sellers can (or are willing to) do better  PCP deals..

Still says a lot that on final reckoning, Id rather keep a 13 plate GS than swap it for a brand new Audi. The mrs will will just have to allow the dogs in her car lol

Yep currently its about £6k on the executive GS and about £10k on an A6 SE Avant just by taking a quick look.

The monthly payments are mainly down to residuals I guess.

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16 hours ago, Chafford1 said:

Does that mean the GS F is being phased out as well?

At the moment there is no official word on the demise of the GS. Speculation from USA is the GS will be dropped. For the UK that would mean selling the ES in its place. (Possibly rebadged GS??)

If this turns out to be the case, then yes you'd have to assume the GSF would end also. 

The worrying element of this is that the ES is a similar size to the GS but is an entry level mid size luxury car, and slots between the IS and GS. So wheres the GS is a true direct competitior the the A6, E class and 5 series, the ES is not (although for europe it could be ,made to be??)

Footnote - the CEO of Lexus Australia has hinted the GS badge may find its way onto a luxury 4 door coupe, to become an A7/CLS equivalent.

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