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1 hour ago, rayaans said:

0-60mph in 4.5s with a 310 mile range is hardly ground breaking though

I think that is either/or not in combination. You start doing 4.5 sec launches your range will plummet 

I saw three Tesla model S on various motorways on our way back from Gatwick, each time pootling along at a steady 55-60 mph in lane one. 

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4 hours ago, rayaans said:

Yes, but I dont understand why someone would go for an EV in a fast car. Like surely the whole point is to get the sound and sense of speed rather than feeling like going through a timewarp

That is why you simply will never understand I love the EV drivetrain :).

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11 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Can you name some??

Pretty much any car at that price... Tesla materials are appalling and that's is in "premium" Model S. I cannot complain about build quality and probably it is better to judge build quality on how much rattles and wear you have after few years, but materials feels very cheap.

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Don't think many of us wish to understand !

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1 hour ago, steveledzep said:

Don't think many of us wish to understand !

 

I can see that, but never the less I simply love cars and talking about them. For me the Model 3 is the most exciting car to be mass produced since I learnt to drive, I'm just thankful I can afford one and getting to experience one of the most exciting changes in automotive history :) 

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1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Pretty much any car at that price... Tesla materials are appalling and that's is in "premium" Model S. I cannot complain about build quality and probably it is better to judge build quality on how much rattles and wear you have after few years, but materials feels very cheap.

Can you point me to another EV that can do 310 miles EPA range for £45K?

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5 hours ago, rayaans said:

Yes, but I dont understand why someone would go for an EV in a fast car. Like surely the whole point is to get the sound and sense of speed rather than feeling like going through a timewarp

i do have to side with rayaans on this one.

how boring is formula E you know in some cases you need the sound as well,

i tuned in for the 1st race and it wasn't the same without the roar of the engine and instead just a whine, for me there wasn't any feel of speed

so i haven't tuned in to watch it again.

 

 

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15 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Can you point me to another EV that can do 310 miles EPA range for £45K?

An e-golf can do 186 miles for £24k after discounts and grants lol

So someone might argue that you're paying £21k for 124 miles of range. Yes Ok its not exactly quick but hey, why would you want to go quick in an EV anyway.

For £45k I would probably just get a used F, M, AMG or RS car and spend the rest on petrol if I wanted speed

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I'm finding it interesting that there's such a theme of negativity running through a lot of these comments, as if some people find it a personal affront that cars exist that are powered solely by electricity, and that some Lexus enthusiasts quite like them.

My view is a Tesla Model S is probably exactly the sort of car I'd want to replace my GS450H with if only I could stomach the upfront cost.  While I can't speak from experience I'm sure any internal quality issues will be sorted in time.  Similarly, if I was in the market for a small/mid saloon with a budget of £40K I'd definitely be looking at a Tesla Model 3.  While the range/charging requirements would mean it won't be suitable for some, I'd imagine for most people it's totally fine.

On one level if this was a Caterham or Westfield forum I'd get the aversion to a large, heavy, complex car like a Tesla, but Tesla and Lexus pretty much live in the same kind of market segment, so I do find the hostility odd and a bit disappointing. 

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55 minutes ago, Odysseus said:

theme of negativity

if some people find it a personal affront that cars exist that are powered solely by electricity

How you came to that conclusion? Who is outraged by electric cars? The general sense is that majority of population have no access to facilities to charge these cars and they make no economical sense. Second main theme is that Tesla feels cheaply made and not up to the level of luxury cars we expect in Europe.

I would love to have PHEV coupe, because EV range would cover my daily commute and petrol/diesel would give me desired range when I going away from London on weekends. Pure EV is great in the city, but they simply not going to match ICE on range anytime soon. Is that an issue.. no I don't think so, because I don't see myself driving EV for more then 30-50 miles a day. However, that means I will need second car for weekends for any foreseeable future unless somebody comes-up with 1000miles Battery, or at least 250miles Battery which can be charged in seconds + network of such chargers.

That brings me to another point @ganzoom - I don't care about EV range as long as it is more then my daily commute ~30 miles or 50 miles just to be on safe side and account for Battery capacity degradation over time. For PHEV it can even be something like 22miles as it would simply revert to ICE after that. I would never do any longer journeys in EV until recharging is going to becomes as quick as refueling i.e. I care more about how long it takes to charge, not the range. As such for me there is no difference if I need to charge Tesla after 310miles for 30 minutes or Golf-e after 180miles for 30 minutes, the charging time of 30 minutes is equally unsatisfactory.

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2 hours ago, rayaans said:

An e-golf can do 186 miles for £24k after discounts and grants lol

I suggest you look up the terms EPA, WLTP, and NEDC range :).

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1 hour ago, Odysseus said:

I'm finding it interesting that there's such a theme of negativity running through a lot of these comments, as if some people find it a personal affront that cars exist that are powered solely by electricity, and that some Lexus enthusiasts quite like them.

My view is a Tesla Model S is probably exactly the sort of car I'd want to replace my GS450H with if only I could stomach the upfront cost.  While I can't speak from experience I'm sure any internal quality issues will be sorted in time.  Similarly, if I was in the market for a small/mid saloon with a budget of £40K I'd definitely be looking at a Tesla Model 3.  While the range/charging requirements would mean it won't be suitable for some, I'd imagine for most people it's totally fine.

On one level if this was a Caterham or Westfield forum I'd get the aversion to a large, heavy, complex car like a Tesla, but Tesla and Lexus pretty much live in the same kind of market segment, so I do find the hostility odd and a bit disappointing. 

No, not really and I think you've got completely the wrong end of the stick.

The EV idea is good and very likely to become the future. The problem with it at the moment is that there are too many downsides to having one. These are:

1) Range anxiety. Despite not many people doing 300+ miles in a day, the range anxiety still persists. Its mainly due to thinking of "what if" situations. Say you lived in Scotland and your parents were down South. Imagine a situation where you don't have enough charge to get there in time and having to wait around for the car to charge before setting off. Alternatively, whilst they don't happen often, powercuts do occur and can leave you stranded. Additionally, when you start to floor these things, they rapidly lose juice, as they do in winter as well, after all, they are no different to standard batteries. 300 miles is still an absolute joke for a modern vehicle. My RX hasn't got a huge tank, and it doesn't exactly sip fuel but it still gets a real 450 miles out of a tank without any hassle, worry or effort.

2) Specific to Tesla - their build quality is rubbish and Im not sure many people would want to get out of their premium saloons with plush materials to downgrade in terms of material quality. Very cheap feeling plastics all over the vehicle and some models are using Mercedes switchgear from 2011. 

3) These things aren't exactly reliable - forums are riddled with issues. The model S still has issues and its been going for a long long time. What about after a number of years too? Long term reliability is yet to be seen.

4) Cost - EVs are still expensive despite a certain someone saying that Battery costs will be going down. I don't see anyone reducing the price of EVs anytime soon either. They're all more expensive for what you get at the moment and I swear Model S has actually gone up in price recently. 

I understand that some people really don't care about what their vehicles look like, or feel like,  and are happy to use it as transport and nothing else. I mean look at it, it doesn't exactly look special either does it?

6 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

I suggest you look up the terms EPA, WLTP, and NEDC range :).

It doesn't really matter because we live in the UK and we don't use the EPA here anyway. 

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1 hour ago, rayaans said:

It doesn't really matter because we live in the UK and we don't use the EPA here anyway. 

Well thats the kind of logic you just cannot argue with 😉

 

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3 hours ago, Odysseus said:

On one level if this was a Caterham or Westfield forum I'd get the aversion to a large, heavy, complex car like a Tesla, but Tesla and Lexus pretty much live in the same kind of market segment, so I do find the hostility odd and a bit disappointing. 

 

Don't be disappointed its human nature to resist change!!

psychological-reaction-to-change.jpg

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@ganzoom - it makes no sense. Certainly there are people who are against any change, but in this thread I haven't seen anyone who sad they are against EV's.

Being stuck and avert to change has nothing to do with objectively reviewing the facts and making objective and informed decision. If I would live in detached house with garage I would install charging point and I would be more then happy to drive PHEV, or if I have option to have 2 cars then EV and PHEV. Optionally, I would be happy to have PHEV if there would be possibility to install charging point in my underground garage, I am even happy to cover all the costs.. sadly that is not the option I have and it has nothing to do with resisting change. Equally, it is fact that Tesla quality is not that great, it is not being against EV it is just objective truth.

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So let's assume we all decide ok "gadzooks, ganzoom is right - it is the future" and over 1 billion car drivers place an order, tomorrow, for an EV....

Tell me, how long will it take to make and supply the batteries?

It doesn't matter whether one thinks they are the best thing since Kylie signed for agent provocateur, there simply aren't enough Kylies to go round.

Quote

 

The report shows that the Battery manufacturing leads to high emissions. For every kilowatt hour of storage capacity in the Battery generated emissions of 150 to 200 kilos of carbon dioxide already in the factory. The researchers did not study individual brand batteries, how these were produced, or the electricity mix they use. But if we understand the great importance of the Battery here is an example: Two common electric cars on the market, the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla Model S, the batteries about 30 kWh and 100 kWh.

Even before buying the car emissions occurred, corresponding to approximately 5.3 tons and 17.5 tons of Carbon Dioxide. The numbers can be difficult to relate to. As a comparison, a trip for one person round trip from Stockholm to New York by air causes the release of more than 600 kilograms of carbon dioxide, according to the UN organization ICAO calculation.
Another conclusion of the study is that about half the emissions arising from the production of raw materials and half the production of the Battery factory. The mining accounts for only a small proportion of between 10-20 percent.

The calculation is based on the assumption that the electricity mix used in the Battery factory consists of more than half of the fossil fuels. In Sweden, the power production is mainly of fossil-nuclear and hydropower why lower emissions had been achieved.

The study also concluded that emissions grow almost linearly with the size of the Battery, even if it is pinched by the data in that field. It means that a Battery of the Tesla-size contributes more than three times as much emissions as the Nissan Leaf size.

 

If you think people should just ignore these issues and carry on then that's your opinion, but they are valid concerns about sustainability.

Not even to mention Tesla's finacial position.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

 

Don't be disappointed its human nature to resist change!!

psychological-reaction-to-change.jpg

The Kubler Ross model is a bunch of BS in practice though. Most people don't go through the stages, chop and change through different stages and some never get to the end, or even start on the cycle to begin with.

Ive got a detached house, plenty of place to charge an EV but the fact of the matter is that they're too expensive and you don't get value for money. Bring me an EV which can do 500 miles on one charge, charge in less than 5 minutes and cost under £60k new without looking like an EV and Ill scoop it up tomorrow because it will suit my lifestyle quite well. 

I also don't despise going to the petrol station like some do. It gives me something to do rather than being bored in the British weather waiting for the car to charge....

 

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10 minutes ago, rayaans said:

The Kubler Ross model is a bunch of BS in practice though. Most people don't go through the stages, chop and change through different stages and some never get to the end, or even start on the cycle to begin with.

Ive got a detached house, plenty of place to charge an EV but the fact of the matter is that they're too expensive and you don't get value for money. Bring me an EV which can do 500 miles on one charge, charge in less than 5 minutes and cost under £60k new without looking like an EV and Ill scoop it up tomorrow because it will suit my lifestyle quite well. 

I also don't despise going to the petrol station like some do. It gives me something to do rather than being bored in the British weather waiting for the car to charge....

 

I see your on stage 2 🙂

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5 hours ago, Odysseus said:

I'm finding it interesting that there's such a theme of negativity running through a lot of these comments, as if some people find it a personal affront that cars exist that are powered solely by electricity, and that some Lexus enthusiasts quite like them........................ so I do find the hostility odd and a bit disappointing. 

I think it's inevitable that EVs will become more prevalent as time goes on and I'm interested, but not now, too much in its infancy imo.

I also don't think the negativity in this thread is solely aimed at the Tesla, it's a remarkable piece of kit on paper (no actual experience for me).

I think a lot of the negativity is in response to one guy banging on about Tesla constantly to the point of tedium.

This is a Lexus forum.

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How are the millions that live in terraced houses in our big towns and cities who are lucky if they can park within 200 yds of their houses with cars being parked on both sides of the road going to be able to charge their cars? Until you can visit a charging station that can fill your batteries up in the same time it takes you to fill with petrol full electric cars will always be a rarity for those who can afford to park their cars on their own land and in their own garages. Hybrid petrol/electricity cars are about as far as I can see new age cars going.

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19 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

How are the millions that live in terraced houses in our big towns and cities who are lucky if they can park within 200 yds of their houses with cars being parked on both sides of the road going to be able to charge their cars? Until you can visit a charging station that can fill your batteries up in the same time it takes you to fill with petrol full electric cars will always be a rarity for those who can afford to park their cars on their own land and in their own garages. Hybrid petrol/electricity cars are about as far as I can see new age cars going.

I presume the only feasible way is to put charging points on streets. I.e. have 2-3 roadside boxes with 5-10 charging points in them and then they can just drag the wires across

I can see our suing culture becoming worse with that idea though.

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There will be induction charging. Theoretically could be one in every parking space and strips in streets.



Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

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14 minutes ago, Comedian said:

There will be induction charging. Theoretically could be one in every parking space and strips in streets.



Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk
 

Would have to be a massive investment though. How many streets and car parking spaces are there in the UK?

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Would have to be a massive investment though. How many streets and car parking spaces are there in the UK?
Exactly the point I've been making. But hey, it's cool and the future so if you mention any practical hurdles you just can't accept change.

It's currently in public beta as far as I can tell.



Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, steveledzep said:

I think a lot of the negativity is in response to one guy banging on about Tesla constantly to the point of tedium.

This is a Lexus forum.

To be fair he didn't start the thread, he's also a Lexus owner so probably has some leeway to offer up a comparison. 

I find his stuff interesting but despite as you say him 'banging on about Tesla ' he hasn't convinced me in the slightest.😉

 

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