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1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Would have to be a massive investment though. How many streets and car parking spaces are there in the UK?

Investment one thing, how about actually manufacturing everything? How about all pollution form installation and manufacturing. After all change is heavily influenced by carbon and other types of pollution reduction, not increase.

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I'd rather the Government Invested in  public transport, or at least subsidised it to the extent that's happening with our European counterparts.

Major towns and cities are becoming no car zones. Not necessarily because of emissions but more over where do you park the bloody things ?

 

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I'd rather the Government Invested in  public transport, or at least subsidised it to the extent that's happening with our European counterparts.
Major towns and cities are becoming no car zones. Not necessarily because of emissions but more over where do you park the bloody things ?
 
Which is my other point. A change in societal norms. Which can take a generation or more...or war.

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Ulitmatly what ever some of you think about EVs its the market/consumer that will decide.

Its only last few months Tesla have been able to ramp up production and getting cars out to customers in the US. Even than the cars have really only been going to California. 

The numbers speak for themselves. Any company that doesnt have a 'premium' small EV to compete with the Model 3 is going to be dead in water very soon in the US!!! 

You can guess what the salesteam in BMW/Mercedes offices will be pushing for.....change is coming, and much more quickly than many people think. Having now driven EVs for over 3 years all I can say its about time :).

https://electrek.co/2018/05/22/tesla-model-3-beats-bmw-3-series-mercedes-c-class-best-selling-california-report/

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According to Car Driver in the US there are fundamental Issues with the 3 such as ride , cabin ergonomics & braking BUT the costly range extender works on the $80k. model .

Tel

.

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4 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Ulitmatly what ever some of you think about EVs its the market/consumer that will decide.

Its only last few months Tesla have been able to ramp up production and getting cars out to customers in the US. Even than the cars have really only been going to California. 

The numbers speak for themselves. Any company that doesnt have a 'premium' small EV to compete with the Model 3 is going to be dead in water very soon in the US!!! 

You can guess what the salesteam in BMW/Mercedes offices will be pushing for.....change is coming, and much more quickly than many people think. Having now driven EVs for over 3 years all I can say its about time :).

https://electrek.co/2018/05/22/tesla-model-3-beats-bmw-3-series-mercedes-c-class-best-selling-california-report/

Again, manipulation of stats.

Look at the small area i.e. california. Then compare brand new car sales to vehicles which are much older. The 3 series is almost 6 years old. Everyone knows that the first few years are usually the largest in terms of registrations for cars so all I can see from those figures is that BMW and Merc are actually doing pretty well considering the age of their vehicles

The new 3 series will have a model called the I4 - an EV which will land in 2020. 

Tesla has a lot of competition and its only a matter of time before their Tesla Motors side of things goes bankrupt or sales dwindle. 

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10 minutes ago, rayaans said:

The new 3 series will have a model called the I4 - an EV which will land in 2020. 

Tesla has a lot of competition and its only a matter of time before their Tesla Motors side of things goes bankrupt or sales dwindle. 

You just dont get it do you?? Its not about Tesla its about EVs. I hope BMW get a proper EV (not a small overpriced hatchback) to maket ASAP, same with Mercedes.....Where is the Lexus EV??!!

As for California been 'small' you might want to look up some facts - and as a tip I would also not use that term to any Californian resident. May be at the same time you can as look up the difference between EPA, WTLP, and NEDC rating;)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California

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7 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

You just dont get it do you?? Its not about Tesla its about EVs. I hope BMW get a proper EV (not a small overpriced hatchback) to maket ASAP, same with Mercedes.....Where is the Lexus EV??!!

As for California been 'small' you might want to look up some facts - and as a tip I would also not use that term to any Californian resident. May be at the same time you can as look up the difference between EPA, WTLP, and NEDC rating;)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California

Last time I checked, this was a Tesla thread? 

Toyota EV prototypes have already been produced and will be out in 2020. Lexus will follow. 

What are you on about? California is a minority compared to the whole of America, Canada, Europe and every other country in the world. Its an extremely small sample size in the grand scheme of things. California also has decent charging infrastructure whereas other states don't. 

Time and time again, you keep posting skewed data.

For reference, Quarter 1 for Tesla was 30k units. BMW group electric vehicles sold 37k in the same time period of the same year. These are worldwide figures. So for a company focusing entirely on mass production EV's, they aren't doing as well as one would hope

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It's also a very wealthy state. With lots of high paid jobs including in Tech. A great market for something like Tesla. 

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Interesting news from California, and to those dissing California, their economy is now greater than that of the UK, not bad since their population is about 2/3rds of ours.

EVs look like the way to go, and with their extensive knowledge, Toyota/Lexus should be in a good position to take advantage, even if there is little to be seen at the moment.

 

Vince

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On 5/22/2018 at 5:31 PM, rayaans said:

I presume the only feasible way is to put charging points on streets. I.e. have 2-3 roadside boxes with 5-10 charging points in them and then they can just drag the wires across

I can see our suing culture becoming worse with that idea though.

 

"and then they can just drag the wires across"  and your local yobs can come along once they have been thrown out of the pubs and rip them all out. Needs to be a better option than that.

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17 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

"and then they can just drag the wires across"  and your local yobs can come along once they have been thrown out of the pubs and rip them all out. Needs to be a better option than that.

Might nick the copper out of them as well whilst they're at it

5 hours ago, Vince Donald said:

Interesting news from California, and to those dissing California, their economy is now greater than that of the UK, not bad since their population is about 2/3rds of ours.

EVs look like the way to go, and with their extensive knowledge, Toyota/Lexus should be in a good position to take advantage, even if there is little to be seen at the moment.

 

Vince

That tends to happen when you get a lot of rich people and stick them in one place.....

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22 hours ago, doog442 said:

I'd rather the Government Invested in  public transport, or at least subsidised it to the extent that's happening with our European counterparts.

Major towns and cities are becoming no car zones. Not necessarily because of emissions but more over where do you park the bloody things ?

There are always going to be people who won't use public transport, or anything public for that matter. I always though we have freedom of choice?! This start to sound like communism for me...

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just an idea

how about if you could have inductive charging just like your phone

so in your parking space on the road a pad would be installed in the ground

this would be connected to your wifi where you could pay for your charging online, once aurthorised

charging would commence ,no cables and no one to be sued.

 

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And then there is the self driving car...

Curious to hear your opinion about it but personally i cannot wait, just bring it on! Enter where you have to go and presto!  EVś  will change motoring but the introduction of autonomous cars ( that are EV as well ) will even have a bigger impact i think. What will be the future of motoring?

Owning a car is not someting youngsters want nowadays whilst for my generation it meant freedom ( and getting away from you parents haha).  Just bringing the following scenario to the discussion; No need to personally own a car as you simply order an Uber/Lyft it drives up and whisks you away for a couple of pounds, way cheaper than owning a car yourself.  Will this form a new way of public/private transport? will it substantially reduce the number of cars in our streets, will inner cities only be allowed for these? Will youngsters ever own a drivinglicence?

I do believe this will come sooner than later give it another decade. For me it means not having to pay attention in trafficjams, going from red light to red light etc. And in the weekend i will take my own hobbycar from the seventies and drive the wheels off!  

 

 

 

 

  

 

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1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

There are always going to be people who won't use public transport, or anything public for that matter. I always though we have freedom of choice?! This start to sound like communism for me...

How weird. Pay taxes but 'won't use anything public'? How? streets, lighting, Schools....etc., all are 'public', as in we 'own' them/pay for them

Methinks (like the amurricuns)  have got 'communism' in your head as all evil. The fact that russia decayed into lunacy was just human failings -ain't nowt wrong with caring for your fellow man, which is the basis of communism as a philosophy.

Freedom of choice? Another delusion. But this is about Teslas.....

The whole idea of each of us having individual vehicles, that spend a huge % of the time sitting parked up, is of course, crazy in itself, never mind WHAT propells them (when they ARE propelled!)

 

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Another interesting read - 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/funding-for-thousands-of-electric-car-charge-points-unused-by-councils

Only 5 councils have taken advantage of the government's grant for installing public charge points.

"Millions of homes in the UK do not have off-street parking, so this funding is important to help local councils ensure that all their residents can take advantage of this revolution." 

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1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

There are always going to be people who won't use public transport, or anything public for that matter. I always though we have freedom of choice?! This start to sound like communism for me...

So you think its easier, cheaper and more convenient to drive into a city than take public transport ? 

You need to get out more. 😉

We have a brilliant rail network in this country that needs subsidising and more investment. Thats not communism, its happening in every capitalist city in the world.  

 

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just an idea
how about if you could have inductive charging just like your phone
so in your parking space on the road a pad would be installed in the ground
this would be connected to your wifi where you could pay for your charging online, once aurthorised
charging would commence ,no cables and no one to be sued.
 
It already exists in testing, see post 97

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14 hours ago, doog442 said:

So you think its easier, cheaper and more convenient to drive into a city than take public transport ? 

You need to get out more. 😉

We have a brilliant rail network in this country that needs subsidising and more investment. Thats not communism, its happening in every capitalist city in the world.  

 

Trains are dead expensive for what they are though. 

I fancied going down to London over the long weekend and they wanted £360 for 4 adults and a child return. That price included a railcard. Its roughly 400 miles return trip for me so would only cost me £50-60 on petrol there and back if I took the RX and left it parked at the hotel. More convenient as well. 

Back on topic though:

Edmunds are running a long term Tesla Model 3 and Consumer Reports purchased one just to test themselves.

The reports aren't great, a lot of faults and things going wrong. Additionally basic things like ride quality and cabin noise issues. 

Funny how being an EV makes all this somewhat negligible, any other car and it'd get ripped to shred by the media and consumers, yet everyone puts on their rose-tinted glasses when it comes to anything that runs on electric power.

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15 hours ago, 200h said:

just an idea

how about if you could have inductive charging just like your phone

so in your parking space on the road a pad would be installed in the ground

this would be connected to your wifi where you could pay for your charging online, once aurthorised

charging would commence ,no cables and no one to be sued.

 

Who is going to run around to make sure that only the owner/renter of that space is parked in this wonderful world where no one will do naughty things like parking in a space that they shouldn't be parked in. As a disabled driver with a blue badge I can tell you those bays are abused by non-disabled drivers every minute of the day. 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. The authorities cant stop that so how on earth are they going to police your parking idea?

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Same way they know to take money out your bank account when you tap your enabled card on the machine.

Same way your media player knows to connect to your phone etc. I mean, you know you can even pay for your shopping by tapping your phone on the counter now?

Not hard at all, cars could even carry a chip so when you charge at a public space the money comes out your account.

The Govt will love that as they can track everyone.

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17 hours ago, doog442 said:

We have a brilliant rail network in this country

Sorry ... where are you from? Surely, not UK...  pun intended

The rail is awful in UK, amazingly expensive, always late and I am not even joking. In whole Japan in whole year, all the trains gets delayed by less then a minute, in UK every single train gets delayed by more then a minute and price is astronomical.

If I compare my driving vs. what if I would use public transport instead... I easily save ~£7000 every year driving vs. single ticket price on the day. Obviously, getting season ticket or booking in advance would be slightly cheaper, but that is limiting factor. When driving I can wake-up in the morning decide where and when I want to go and just go, without season tickets, without early bookings and planning. That is not to mention I would need car anyway and getting season ticket + paying all static costs for car (like insurance, road tax, servicing) it woudl cost even more.

If.. and that is big IF as it will never happen, public transport would be 100% free, only then I would even consider using it instead, very likely I would still drive quite often, just because public transport is so awful. Obviously, that is very personal thing, first of all because I hate sharing my personal space (...and germs, especially when others decides to share some) with anyone else, secondly I rather like driving.

@Chris Skelton - yes cars are parked 95% of time... but if you think about it.. all appliances are. So maybe we should throw away our washing machines, irons, dishwashers... maybe we should share one with like 8 neighbors.. you know just to be more efficient. Same can be said about clothes, why don't we just throw them all out and just all get practical onesie for all occasions?! Blue ones for man, red ones for woman and pink ones for the rest (you see I am being "inclusive").

What you talking about is totalitarian mind state - where personal freedom is not a right.

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1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Sorry ... where are you from? Surely, not UK...  pun intended

 

You're quite cute in quoting half sentences😉. Let me remind you of what I actually said.

19 hours ago, doog442 said:

We have a brilliant rail network in this country that needs subsidising and more investment. Thats not communism, its happening in every capitalist city in the world.  

Ok not quite brilliant but the basics are there despite Beeching doing his best in the 60's.

Agree with Rayaans about some of the prices.I travel into numerous large cities and conurbations most weekends. Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, London etc. Its far easier and cheaper for me to park 20 / 30 miles outside and get the train in than drive in and park for the whole day. That appears to be the sweet spot, price wise rather than long distance journeys where yes its simply a rip off. That said i'm not a commuter, many of whom are fleeced but have no option as there's little parking and its expensive. That will never change. 

My point is that you can have all  the electric cars in the world but it would be totally impractical to park them all in a city . Remember the discussion involved the country needing a massive injection of infrastructure for EV's. My counter argument is that I'd like to see continued investment and subsiding of public transport nationwide first and foremost that would negate people wanting or needing to jump into a car be it electrical or petrol driven. Obviously rural areas have their own issues. 

If we are going to stick charging points on every street corner (I heard the suggestion lamp posts could be used / adapted) should this be Government funded or should vehicle manufacturers cough up (hence my public transport tirade)

 

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I can see your perspective, however that is not how it works for me.

I live 16miles away from London center, so that is similar to what you have described as "sweet spot". Few typical travels I do in the car vs. public transport:

Commuting to work. I have calculated all expenses including, insurance, tax, maintenance (including unplanned maintenance pot), depreciation and obviously fuel. This works out as ~0.16p mile (the more I drive the cheaper it gets), so if I do 16 miles it will be £5.12. As well I pay for parking (sometimes) which is £5/day (yes £5/day in central London!). I don't hit congestion charge zone as office is just outside of it. So my total daily cost to drive in is £10.12. Commuter train peak time fare is £10.40 one way or £20.80 return. As I said if my second half shares the ride, which she does at least twice a week the difference is quite big, £10.12 vs £41.60. Ok.. what about weakly pass then! You see weakly pass is £89 and and I work one day from home, so it woudl work out more expensive + from perspective of family budge my girlfriend would still need to pay for travel, so instead of £40.48/week it would cost £130.6... I made calculation for all possible season tickets and math always the same. 

Next... I fly to work abroad ~twice a month + fly to holidays + my family comes from time to time to visit me (yes I know.. planes are public transport as well! Sadly I am not yet in position to have my private jet). In short I drive to airport fairly often ~3 times month and on average I have 2.5 people in the car. It is amazing how expensive is to get the train to the airport (flight is often cheaper then train to the airport) + carrying luggage from platform to platform, changing trains, many train don't run at night and if the flight is like 6:30AM, there is literally no way but to go to airport evening before flight (done it few times). So here is math, getting train to airport or train to central London and then bus to airport is ~£40pp return, as I have on average 2.5people with me that is £100 per flight and I do that 36 times per year, that alone would be £3600 if I would use public transport. As for the car, most airports are ~40 miles away from me (rarely fly from Heathrow) and nice motorway miles, very rarely any substantial traffic jams and the cost well under £10 per journey, I do spend on average ~£12 for airport parking, so works out as £792.

Next I like road trips.. Get few friends and drive to Scotland, Devon, Wales etc. Last time we decided to go to Scotland the train price was £278pp (cheapest at that time), so for 4, it would have costed £1112.. just for train tickets, not to mention we would have to rent the car anyway to visit places in Scottish highlands. All trip all together costed £340 for 4. 3x tanks of petrol + apartment on airbnb. Even bigger saving was made on Christmas day trip to Bath... train ticket was £780pp.

Finally, as I said even if public transport would be free I would still drive to Scotland because I like it - even more, are you suggesting to cover all remote areas like Scottish Highlands with the train tracks? So we stop people driving, but we cover national reserves with train tracks?! I would still drive to airport because of all hurdles changing trains with luggage ... I might take train to work, but only if it would be amazingly clean, quiet and under occupied... which lets face it - is not gonna happen. Free and amazing just doesn't add together.

So no... public transport is not a solution, unless you want everyone to be mindless tools only ever travelling to their purposeless work and back, without any free time or any needs to travel anywhere outside of their designated daily route.

Sorry for the rant, you can read from here down:

As for investment into public transport - there is no need for extra investment,  they have enough and even too much investment, the problems is that system is corrupt, money is laundered, wasted and spent inefficiently. 

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