average speed cameras

[Guest]

I think the 'average speed' approach is the only real way to control speed. The usual spot check cameras just encourage drivers to brake and accelerate. The unwary get caught but the vast majority don't.

But the highway code doesn't enforce an average. Average almost could encourage speeding with the correct app. So I've been say 40mph for a mile I have now built up enough credit to complete the section at 80. I don't get a ticket but have broken the law. Same as slowing and speeding through a fixed.

Have you noticed there are no average cameras through sleepy villages where kids might be playing? They are all on main roads where people are sat behind airbags.

The real answer is better driver training to reduce accidents.

Cameras are easier and cheaper though. We all know what they are for really.

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[Linas.P]

@Comedian it practice it never works that way, people will always try to drive as fast as possible and it is never very clear for which part of the road the average is taken, so everyone simply sticks to the speed.

As for kids and village - people simply need to start take some responsibility and be accountable for their actions. If child runs into the road and dies - parents have to go to a prison. After all it is their responsibility, they are the parents and I am not a babysitter. If I am driving and minding my own business and somebody jumps into my way - that is their problem not mine. Here we have some sort of weird view - drivers have to babysit everyone... pedestrians, cyclists, bike riders... people just need to grow-up and be more careful, take care of themselves first before expecting everyone else to care. I would go as far as arresting kids playing on the road, bring them to parents and fine the parents for not taking care... there are no reason under any circumstances where kids can play on the road ever... especially in villages.

It is like saying - train tracks runs past my village, then train driver better of paying attention ... because is somebody jumps on tracks they should react!... No they don't, you jump on tracks you die - simple... you jump in front of the car you die.

I agree - there is no excuse if you were speeding, lost control, hit the kerb and killed 5 people in the bus stop! But if person jumps into your way - no matter the speed (within some reasonable margin) it is their fault, no questions asked. Yes if you flying past village at 120MPH it might be unreasonable to expect somebody to see you, but whenever it is 30 or 42, makes no practical difference. You can be doing 42 brake and could not stop in time or do 30, do not brake and still run the person over... in the end of the day it is not your speed what matters, but their action - not paying attention and stepping into the road in front of vehicle. it is not like "ohhh he was doing 42 and became instantly invisible"!

[Guest]

Interesting take. Also technology has evolved so fast in last hundred years, human brain has sometimes (looking at tv) regressed in the thinking dept.

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[Bluesman]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

@Comedian it practice it never works that way, people will always try to drive as fast as possible and it is never very clear for which part of the road the average is taken, so everyone simply sticks to the speed.

As for kids and village - people simply need to start take some responsibility and be accountable for their actions. If child runs into the road and dies - parents have to go to a prison. After all it is their responsibility, they are the parents and I am not a babysitter. If I am driving and minding my own business and somebody jumps into my way - that is their problem not mine. Here we have some sort of weird view - drivers have to babysit everyone... pedestrians, cyclists, bike riders... people just need to grow-up and be more careful, take care of themselves first before expecting everyone else to care. I would go as far as arresting kids playing on the road, bring them to parents and fine the parents for not taking care... there are no reason under any circumstances where kids can play on the road ever... especially in villages.

It is like saying - train tracks runs past my village, then train driver better of paying attention ... because is somebody jumps on tracks they should react!... No they don't, you jump on tracks you die - simple... you jump in front of the car you die. 

I agree - there is no excuse if you were speeding, lost control, hit the kerb and killed 5 people in the bus stop! But if person jumps into your way - no matter the speed (within some reasonable margin) it is their fault, no questions asked. Yes if you flying past village at 120MPH it might be unreasonable to expect somebody to see you, but whenever it is 30 or 42, makes no practical difference. You can be doing 42 brake and could not stop in time or do 30, do not brake and still run the person over... in the end of the day it is not your speed what matters, but their action - not paying attention and stepping into the road in front of vehicle. it is not like "ohhh he was doing 42 and became instantly invisible"!

" It is like saying - train tracks runs past my village, then train driver better of paying attention ... because is somebody jumps on tracks they should react!... No they don't, you jump on tracks you die - simple... you jump in front of the car you die. "

Like for like doesn't work with train drivers as they can't stop 400 tons of train going at 125 MPH in the same way a car can and neither can they go round any obstruction.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

" It is like saying - train tracks runs past my village, then train driver better of paying attention ... because is somebody jumps on tracks they should react!... No they don't, you jump on tracks you die - simple... you jump in front of the car you die. "

Like for like doesn't work with train drivers as they can't stop 400 tons of train going at 125 MPH in the same way a car can and neither can they go round any obstruction.

Not sure what your point is. Most pedestrians are hit in 30mph areas. Not at 125mph in your unscientific example - you do realise momentum = velocity x mass. A truck at 40mph has far more momentum energy than a car at 70mph. I know a train driver who has run over people (suicide) and one person who hit child with a car. Both drivers required counselling yet neither was at fault. 

A car is not a magic carpet, F1 cars hit other F1 cars.... being on tracks is, to my mind, a better clue for the pedestrian as to where the vehicle might be headed.

[NothernDan]

On 8/23/2018 at 11:45 AM, finest1 said:

hi all,

I got a bugbear to share with you.

I was on the M4 and M25 last weekend. we went through a patch of roadworks that had average speed cameras set at 50MPH.

while I felt was a good time to check and use my cruise control set at 50, other cars are overtaking me. do these cars get a ticket or penalty. its just frustrating cruising at 50 but others are not.

just annoying really...

so what's the deal with it?

I get the same, 50mph in the ISF appears to be 45 mph on everyone else’s Speedometers. Never checked it against GPS but I’m always about 5mph under what the car says I am according to the flashing smiley faces you get now in most villages.

[Linas.P]

11 hours ago, Bluesman said:

Like for like doesn't work with train drivers as they can't stop 400 tons of train going at 125 MPH in the same way a car can and neither can they go round any obstruction.

My point was to illustrate idea that people have to be responsible when crossing the road, not to illustrate the dynamics of the train vs. the car.

As for previous @Comedian point... I agree drivers needs more training in UK, but it should not end there - everyone should have more training... parents, other road users and pavement users. Should drivers anticipate child running into the road - yes, should they be responsible in any way, shape or form - certainly not. Anticipation and responsibility are two unrelated things. 

I remember when I was growing-up we had "safe road crossing" lesson for first 4 weeks and once a year for first 4 years the school would take us to "road accidents museum", showing smashed cars, accounts of injured drivers and pedestrians with some "mildly" graphical illustrations from the scenes. After first one I was properly scared to cross the road. Some might say little bit over the top, but that is the best way to remember that road is dangerous place - simply being told by grandmother not to run across the road does not tick the box. Ohh and by the way, we wold walk to the school by ourselves from 7 years old, parents taking you to the school after first week was seen as embarrassing.

As for the average speed cameras - yes in theory they can be abused, but in practice hey are much less abused then spot cameras or even something as ridiculously sutpid and obsolete as speed bumps or narrow gates. How often you have speed camera next to the entry of the village with 30MPH limit and people slow down before the camera and "launch" from it, making the speed over village ~50MPH? Or same for speed bumps, slowdown then launch... if there would be 3 average speed cameras in the village which is all in all 1mile long everyone would drive at exactly 30MPH throughout. Anywhere where we have "traffic calming" features we should have average speed cameras instead - much more effective and nicer for drivers and residents. I am sure even residents do not benefit from listening all day long squealing brakes  and suspension crashing over the bump or wheels being kerbed on the narrow gates... not to mention additional and unnecessary pollution from slowing down and then accelerating again. Finally, that would even allow for less draconian speed limits... now the reason why you have 30MPH in village is not because 40MPH is unsafe, but because from the practice we know that most people going to be speeding anyway, so 30 posted = to 38 real. Secondly speeding driver is often more focused, so likely pays more attention and therefore (paradox) is safer. 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

 

I remember when I was growing-up we had "safe road crossing" lesson for first 4 weeks and once a year for first 4 years the school would take us to "road accidents museum", showing smashed cars, accounts of injured drivers and pedestrians with some "mildly" graphical illustrations from the scenes. After first one I was properly scared to cross the road. Some might say little bit over the top, but that is the best way to remember that road is dangerous place - simply being told by grandmother not to run across the road does not tick the box. Ohh and by the way, we wold walk to the school by ourselves from 7 years old, parents taking you to the school after first week was seen as embarrassing.

As for the average speed cameras - yes in theory they can be abused, but in practice hey are much less abused then spot cameras 

 

 

We had highway safety days and even quizzes, cycling proficiency etc. All been cut in the interest of academic league table competition. If a kid get's run over it won't affect the schools position in the table.

Regards camera 'abuse' we need to consider a couple of phenomena. Humans are complex animals, we are fallible and make mistakes both accidental and in terms of bad decisions. We also have emotional pressures good and bad - ie pressure not to be late for work, pressure, maybe, from driving after being upset by a boss at work,  pressure of being in control of a car capable of 150mph legally sold to you and taxed by the government. So the camera's 'job' should be as a reminder to help the human make a better decision in a critical spot. The spot camera does this. Outside a school for example. It doesn't do this on a long straight where it's the only safe place to over-take for 10 miles. That is just cynical and potentially dangerous.

Average cameras are IMHO a bad idea if too widespread, as you essentially focus the driver's mind on one aspect of driving (a complex task) for a long period of time. So yes they may do a better job of controlling speed but I would try and argue they do not do a better job of safety. 

They are often used on long stretches of straight non-dangerous (relatively) roads. These are being used to control traffic flow and track plates, they are fining people to pay for the system. Safety has very little to do with it as far as I can see on most roads. At roadworks, yes it makes sense, but is it effective?

Here are 2 stories from the same average speed camera covered road - note the cars in the accident:

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/a14-cambridge-police-crash-closed-14070715

 

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/a14-cambridgeshire-roads-speed-police-14350325

 

[Linas.P]

You have a point, recently drove on that road and it was boring to the dangerous level, completely no need to have 40MPH limit on such straight road even "during road works". In 10 miles stretch I nearly run into car in front of me like 3 time , and seen countless such situations around me.  On motorway type road 40MPH is literally dangerous... 

that goes back to "speeding driver is probably safer", because he would be focused... trying to avoid speed cameras, police cars etc. In comparison to one who does speed limit on autopilot, but literally is looking to the bird flying in the sky, because it is boring wouldn't even react.

Again talking from my personal experience... speed cameras and speed bumps infuriates me, so I actually drive faster and more dangerously in the presence - effectively on me they have exactly opposite result from the intended one. Average speed cameras on other hand has calming result as there are no way to dodge them... but again as mentioned, this might be so calming that I would lose focus on the road (ACC/PCS would help).

And I agree in terms of government abusing average speed cameras on the roads where speeds doesn't need to be restricted. I just add - the idea in itself is good - I know many roads where it would work perfectly well, but if you want any good idea to be ruined - give it to British government they will fin the way. Let me create separate thread on that, because Average speed question has clearly been answered and I am just going off-topic here.