Potential Exhaust issue?

[mk_lon]

Hey Guys, 

I hope you are well 🙂 

For the last few weeks my is250 (07 plate, 75k miles) has been sounding noticeably louder and sounds like an old fiesta with a cheap sports kits. Also I have noticed a knocking/shaking noise coming from the front of the car at the same time.

I'm planning to take it into my Indy garage but I thought I would try to get an understanding of what it could be from everyone's experience. Worth mentioning my car makes small journeys for most of its life.

Kind regards,

Mo

[Texas]

As you probably already know ( that's why you mentioned it!) lots of short engine use journeys are not good for the longevity of, in particular the Exhaust, cars and their constituent parts. You have perhaps been behind a vehicle when it has made a forward movement and a noticeably large amount of liquid ( highly contaminated water really ) has poured out of its tailpipe! This liquid has accumulated due to condensation in the cold metallic exhaust from the hot engine exhaust gases. If the said exhaust does not get hot enough to evaporate this condensate then it is gonna build up, keeping exhaust cold ( not good) and rusting it from the inside out ( again not good).

The engine block, exhaust manifolds and exhaust system on the IS is a lot larger than your average car ( straight 4 ) and therefore will take longer to get upto high enough temps to evaporate the condensate from its two large back boxes. Also the engine oil will prob need changing more frequently than the manufacture reccomends, as you can actually get condensation on the inside of the engine block and thus contaminate the engine oil.

So regarding your observations, I reckon you have a holed exhaust or worst! The sound will be from the exhaust leaking somewhere, to what extent then inspection will tell, but the 'knocking' may mean it has become detatched somewhere! So I thoroughly reccomend inspection sooner rather than later as it may cause major damage to your or others cars! 

(Looking for previous example right now.....)

paul m.

[Texas]

Yeahhh found it....and you Deffo don't want this happening any time soon....

 

paul m.

[Scouselexus]

To mk_lon, get it looked at ASAP. I ignored my shaking tailpipe and lo and behold my car parted company with its back box pulling the bumper away at speed. Not nice experience. Cost me couple hundred quid to sort but annoying because an Indy probably could have welded it.

Most quick fit places don’t stock Lexus exhausts. Dealer only parts. So looks like Indy weld job or custom made parts if you don’t want to line lexus dealer pocket with your hard earned £££££.

funnily enough your car same age as mine, others had issues on the forum with is,gs exhausts with cars our age too. Please don’t ignore it.

 

 

[mk_lon]

Hi Guys, 

Thank you for coming back to me on this. Paul you correct about the fluid from the exhaust and it sounds like there is a hole somewhere - I was dreading this as I just replaced the rear calipers and was hoping not to spend anymore. I have noticed an increase in the last year of engine oil consumption and noticed that the coolant almost ran out in Oct18, initially I thought it was the water pump and/or a leak but since I topped it up I have never had a problem. 

 Scouslexus - Thank you for the advise, I fear mine will probably end up going down the same route...

I have spent almost 3k since I bought it in 2015, mostly wear and tear (brakes, discs, calipers) but I suppose with the age it should be expected.

Thank you once again for the advice, I dont know where I would be without this forum...... probably sitting in a dealer service area feeling depressed looking at a massive bill lol

[Texas]

No Problem......and no matter how good their coffee & biscuits are the telephone number bill at the end of day is gonna hurt!

So having spent a good bit of money on it then if you continue to 'keep on top' of niggles then it's gonna last you a good long while yet I would like to think. Shame about having to replace the calipers ( pads and discs are expected) as this is preventable if inspected/cleaned/lubed on a regular basis ( even though it is not a Lexus service item)

paul m.

[mk_lon]

23 hours ago, Texas said:

No Problem......and no matter how good their coffee & biscuits are the telephone number bill at the end of day is gonna hurt!

So having spent a good bit of money on it then if you continue to 'keep on top' of niggles then it's gonna last you a good long while yet I would like to think. Shame about having to replace the calipers ( pads and discs are expected) as this is preventable if inspected/cleaned/lubed on a regular basis ( even though it is not a Lexus service item)

paul m.

I must admit they have some of the best coffee and biscuits I have seen in a while. I usually get my is250 serviced at my local independent garage. Despite that I have managed to spend 3k on it in the past 3 years... And now I'm dreading the exhaust issue. 

Even my local indy won't grease the pins (annoying) 

[Scouselexus]

mk-lon, if any use to you there is a national company called powerflow who custom make exhausts for is. Had mine done by them also advised another member to use them. I don’t work for them or anything but they have a branch in Mitcham Greater London if any use for you. My is220d new backbox was about £200 with fitting all custom made, the other member was quoted about £225 because a quad exhaust on his is250. His centre was in sittingbourne.

Just google power flow if you need any more info, made up with mine and probably saved £££££ over Lexus main dealer. 

 

 

 

[baviaannl]

On 3/27/2019 at 4:40 PM, Texas said:

As you probably already know ( that's why you mentioned it!) lots of short engine use journeys are not good for the longevity of, in particular the Exhaust, cars and their constituent parts. You have perhaps been behind a vehicle when it has made a forward movement and a noticeably large amount of liquid ( highly contaminated water really ) has poured out of its tailpipe! This liquid has accumulated due to condensation in the cold metallic exhaust from the hot engine exhaust gases. If the said exhaust does not get hot enough to evaporate this condensate then it is gonna build up, keeping exhaust cold ( not good) and rusting it from the inside out ( again not good).

The engine block, exhaust manifolds and exhaust system on the IS is a lot larger than your average car ( straight 4 ) and therefore will take longer to get upto high enough temps to evaporate the condensate from its two large back boxes. Also the engine oil will prob need changing more frequently than the manufacture reccomends, as you can actually get condensation on the inside of the engine block and thus contaminate the engine oil.

So regarding your observations, I reckon you have a holed exhaust or worst! The sound will be from the exhaust leaking somewhere, to what extent then inspection will tell, but the 'knocking' may mean it has become detatched somewhere! So I thoroughly reccomend inspection sooner rather than later as it may cause major damage to your or others cars! 

(Looking for previous example right now.....)

paul m.

Makes a lot of sense, the 2 years prior to my purchase, the car had only managed 3-4k miles so I'd imagine it was being used as a local run around obviously not getting up to the kind of temperatures to fix the condensation.  My backbox fell off on 26th December, I had it welded back a few days after that and a full service on 4th January, it's now running as quiet and smooth as you could imagine although mine is very well looked after, it had been serviced by Lexus exclusively as well as having all work done by them (must of been on a Lexus plan throughout it's life)  I've said it before, the IS250 is a fantastic drive, really enjoy driving it.

[baviaannl]

On 3/27/2019 at 1:34 PM, mk_lon said:

Hey Guys, 

I hope you are well 🙂 

For the last few weeks my is250 (07 plate, 75k miles) has been sounding noticeably louder and sounds like an old fiesta with a cheap sports kits. Also I have noticed a knocking/shaking noise coming from the front of the car at the same time.

I'm planning to take it into my Indy garage but I thought I would try to get an understanding of what it could be from everyone's experience. Worth mentioning my car makes small journeys for most of its life.

Kind regards,

Mo

Trust me, you're about to loose your backbox, my symptoms were exactly the same as yours.  Do you know someone handy at welding?  Get him to investigate, this will save you a fortune.

[mk_lon]

Hi Guys, 

I took it in the morning first thing to my local Indy, they put up on a ramp and showed me. It turns out the left side exhaust gasket (after the cat) has completely rusted and there is a gap between the two pipes. The one on the right is rusted and will develop a hole soon too.

They said gasket parts shouldn't be much but the labour will be a couple of hours as they have to cut the pipe as the bolts are rusted through and wield it 😞 

I asked about the rest of the exhaust as it look pretty rusty. They said given I only do about 4000 miles a year, I should be able to get another year out of it at least. They usually do Mercs and BMW. They said minus exhaust & brake issues these cars have bullet proof engines, you can't go wrong with a Toyota engine as long as you maintain it.

I love the IS250 SEL, its a beautiful drive and has tons of kit, but given I have spent around £3k+ in 3 years (via my local Indy + Jan19 change rear calipers), I fear even bigger bills are around the corner ..... Thus I may be forced to change it soon.

Ps Thank you all for the advice and sharing your experiences - you have all helped so much. 

Kind regards,

Mo 

 

[mk_lon]

On 3/30/2019 at 1:45 PM, baviaannl said:

Makes a lot of sense, the 2 years prior to my purchase, the car had only managed 3-4k miles so I'd imagine it was being used as a local run around obviously not getting up to the kind of temperatures to fix the condensation.  My backbox fell off on 26th December, I had it welded back a few days after that and a full service on 4th January, it's now running as quiet and smooth as you could imagine although mine is very well looked after, it had been serviced by Lexus exclusively as well as having all work done by them (must of been on a Lexus plan throughout it's life)  I've said it before, the IS250 is a fantastic drive, really enjoy driving it.

Very true, low miles in the IS250 is bad news in the long run...

[Texas]

So now you have 'invested' in fixing the calipers and exhaust then it should serve you a good while yet and I would not be thinking about selling now its 'sorted', if you had a BM or a Merc you'd be spending like this a lot more often I know. Enjoy...

Note: that is prob gonna be the cheapest fix for a 12 year old exhaust problem!

paul m.

 

[mk_lon]

1 hour ago, Texas said:

So now you have 'invested' in fixing the calipers and exhaust then it should serve you a good while yet and I would not be thinking about selling now its 'sorted', if you had a BM or a Merc you'd be spending like this a lot more often I know. Enjoy...

Note: that is prob gonna be the cheapest fix for a 12 year old exhaust problem!

paul m.

 

Very true, I was thinking that. I totally agree that a BMW 3 series (e90) or Merc c class (w204) would be a money pit right now with a catalog of problems.

[johnatg]

21 hours ago, mk_lon said:

Hi Guys, 

I took it in the morning first thing to my local Indy, they put up on a ramp and showed me. It turns out the left side exhaust gasket (after the cat) has completely rusted and there is a gap between the two pipes. The one on the right is rusted and will develop a hole soon too.

They said gasket parts shouldn't be much but the labour will be a couple of hours as they have to cut the pipe as the bolts are rusted through and wield it 😞 

 

 

Why cut the pipes and weld? Why not just cut the nuts and bolts off with an angle grinder or hacksaw, replace the gaskets and use new (preferably stainless) nuts and bolts? (I don't think that they are captive studs - just normal nuts and bolts)

That would take a lot less than two hours and be altogether a lot less effort - and a better job!

[Texas]

That is prob what is gonna happen if this job is taken on but at the time to the customer it was probably 'bigged up' a bit to make it sound like it was an involved job! You know the score. And yes if you or I were there then we would have questioned this procedure.

paul m.

[mk_lon]

3 hours ago, johnatg said:

Why cut the pipes and weld? Why not just cut the nuts and bolts off with an angle grinder or hacksaw, replace the gaskets and use new (preferably stainless) nuts and bolts? (I don't think that they are captive studs - just normal nuts and bolts)

That would take a lot less than two hours and be altogether a lot less effort - and a better job!

Valid point - Worth mentioning when I saw it, the pipe had rusted through and created quite a long(ish) vertical hole roughly spanning the height of it thus the gasget on one side had a gap between the pipe from the cat to the joint. 

[johnatg]

Hmm...maybe a bit more damage than I had envisaged. Beware of spending too much on patching up a disintegrating exhaust - such repairs rarely last more than a few months at best. Better to spend some money on replacement - but the centre section is expensive, even to get fabricated - I assume it is the centre section and not the manifolds where the damage is? (The manifolds are the pieces directly ahead of the joints you describe - they also contain a cat each.)

[mk_lon]

1 hour ago, Texas said:

That is prob what is gonna happen if this job is taken on but at the time to the customer it was probably 'bigged up' a bit to make it sound like it was an involved job! You know the score. And yes if you or I were there then we would have questioned this procedure.

paul m.

Very true with places I have used in the past, I feel I should share my experience of the Indy, their labour rates are not the cheapest but whenever they change parts they usually give you back the old ones in bag. Quite often they haven't charged me for small jobs over the years. In 2015 when I bought the car privately I took it in for a recall at Lexus. Lexus came back with a list of things to change after their free check, ranging from aircon clean to underside being very corroded and having a very expensive treatment on it. 

My local Indy checked it and said not to bother with the list, as things pointed out can last a lot longer, also the corrosion is expected for a car of this age and change the calipers on the front next year, as you can get another 6 months out of them due to the low mileage you do, in the meanwhile get warranty wise and they will pay for the calipers - which they did. 

Despite being a merc/bmw specialist they recommended me to buy an IS250 in 2015. Quote "BMW/Mercs are not built like they used to anymore, so unless your buying new I'd stay clear of them, can't go wrong with a Lexus". To this day I have never had any problems with car bar the recent exhaust and calipers.

[mk_lon]

2 hours ago, johnatg said:

Hmm...maybe a bit more damage than I had envisaged. Beware of spending too much on patching up a disintegrating exhaust - such repairs rarely last more than a few months at best. Better to spend some money on replacement - but the centre section is expensive, even to get fabricated - I assume it is the centre section and not the manifolds where the damage is? (The manifolds are the pieces directly ahead of the joints you describe - they also contain a cat each.)

Hi John, That is exactly my fear...it will only last a few months, I'll just have to wait and see. 

[johnatg]

Nothing there looks too bad. No damage to the pipes? I would have thought that those nuts/bolts would undo with a good soaking with Plus Gas. Or cut the bolts - not sure if there's a spacer between the flanges, but that's easy enough to replace

[Texas]

Haven't had the pleasure of getting intimate with my exhaust yet ( and I don't want to for as long as poss) but that joint looks like it might be a sort of 'ball & socket' joint and therefore held together tight but with some flex by the spring loaded bolts but might not contain a gasket as such. ( scurries off to find breakdown of exhaust components......)

So...There Is a gasket ( Pt No17451-31012 ) in that joint and the spring loaded bolts need tightening up to 32 ft/lb.

 

paul m.

[johnatg]

Haven't had the pleasure of getting intimate with my exhaust yet ( and I don't want to for as long as poss) but that joint looks like it might be a sort of 'ball & socket' joint and therefore held together tight but with some flex by the spring loaded bolts but might not contain a gasket as such. ( scurries off to find breakdown of exhaust components......)
So...There Is a gasket in that joint and the spring loaded bolts need tightening up to 32 ft/lb.
 
paul m.

No - there's a gasket - it will be mesh/composite sort of thing. I'm surprised it has deteriorated.

The green arrow points exactly to it.

I think we are talking about the joint in front of the centre section, not the one behind it as per your pic.

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[johnatg]

Sorry - I see you saw the gasket.

There are two joints and gaskets at the front of the centre section.

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[Texas]

Ok...but the front joint(s) does not appear to have spring loaded bolts in this diagram?