Linas.P

Where is promised exquisite interior?!

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So whilst waiting for the service to be done I had little spin in ES, literally a circle around the block so I am not going to go overboard that I know "what the car is like".

As the drive-train is nothing to be seen anyway I think that was fair enough - on the motorway I am sure it is fine.... as any other car.. even diesel. By the time you reach 50MPH wind and tire noise going to be louder than any diesel rattle anyway... especially on broken British roads. The area around Woodford is actually quite good for "suspension check" - roads are broken and rough with a lot of speed bumps. That said nothing new - makes some humming noise form hybrid powertrain, I have noticed no difference driving it compared to CT200h, IS300h or RC.. same thing..  don't like any of them. Suspension on bad roads is rather crashy, I would say ~ the same as IS300h, GS is certainly smoother. Again nothing new there, driven it for 1.7 mile... so it would be poor judgement.

What I was surprised about was interior... and not in the good way. I came to look at it with prejudice that it will "suck to drive", but it will be very luxurious and nice inside... It does suck to drive... much more due to the sluggish 300h then FWD in this very very limited test... but interior suck as well!!!!

Now hold on those stones you about to launch at me for few more seconds. As always I am over-saturating, interior is well built, infotainment suck as in any Lexus, but the screen is big, steering wheel is the same as you would find in any new F-Sport Lexus - thick and soft with a lot of key.. quite good overall. Seats are great, although I felt more at home in RC driving position. However, there are sticking points, which I do not understand, do not appreciate and which are overall problem for me... for example everything inside is made out of plastic, there are no premium materials at all and I am talking here about top of the range "takumi" model. What?!

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The "aluminium" in inserts are just textured plastic, centre console and windows switches have sort of "wood grain" finish, but again just black plastic. Doesn't feel as cheap as inserts on RC, which were horrible sort of carbon fibre like from kids toys... but still I expected better.

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I guess it could be argued - the texture plastic is lighter than aluminium or wood... but hey ES not exactly race car. Again, that plastic doesn't creak, nor rattle, it is reasonable quality, but it is PLASTIC. If nor for Lexus badge on the wheel I doubt I would be able to tell whenever it is one of the larger Toyotas like Avalon... In fact no so long ago I had Toyota Auris as a rental and feeling of the console is very similar - sturdy, good quality plastic, but nothing posh.. where in Lexus I exactly expect it to be posh and fancy.

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Furthermore... entire Lexus range is the same CT, UX, IS, NX and only RX had leather stitched door cards, but centre console still plastic. They had no LS/LC on the floor which I know are better, but I was really puzzled what you get from Lexus over Toyota? Or what you get in ES over say IS Premier which has nice premium detailing. 100% it is step down from GS, feel like a cheaper, car is made from cheaper material, inferior drivetrain... ok you getting extra leg room in the back, but less headroom... so what is the reasoning for anyone to change for this?

_____

Edit: It was Actually, F-sport with "Takumi Pack" and not actually "Takumi", still quite disappointing... Lexus call that "Hadori plasti-luminium inlays"... terrible. 

 

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Whilst I don't agree with you about the drive because we have different priorities, I couldn't agree more about the interior quality. It definitely has the feel of a higher end Toyota rather than what I'd expect from a Lexus, especially as a replacement for the GS. Very disappointing.

 

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I've seen UX yesterday (and ES like month ago). Both feel very upscale Toyota like. In the UX what made the worst expression was passenger door panel - it was just bit of plastic with lonely looking door handle

new-2019-lexus-ux-ux200fsportfwd-7235-18

On the other hand my reason of visit to Lexus Twickenham was GS F they got there. What a car it made me smile twice in first 60 seconds - first when you start the engine and then when you join the traffic from dealer lot. Even in everything in normal settings and accelerating in 1/2-3/4 throttle rear was very nicely "dancing".

Only regret I got are the seats which doesn't fell too comfortable for longer drive as my GS, plus brakes doesn't seem to be very sharp but they might not be up to the temperature after short test drive. 

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It'll never be something I own but that "bag" which I assume is the gear shift looks dreadful, like something from the 80's.

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24 minutes ago, The-Acre said:

It'll never be something I own but that "bag" which I assume is the gear shift looks dreadful, like something from the 80's.

SCROTUM04A.jpg

If you don't know what is that read the text on the bottom - looks similar isn't it ? 🙂

Hopefully I haven't ruined the experience for future users..

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It does look quite plasticky. I’d like to have a few hours in a new ES, to experience for myself, but from the pictures it doesn’t look a patch on the GS. It’s a big shame, but the interior on my GSF was one of the things that stood out to me as being a little special. 

*Disclaimer - I am aware of the price difference between the two - I’m merely a little disappointed Lexus didn’t try a little harder with the ES.

 

 

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12 hours ago, spacenase said:

Whilst I don't agree with you about the drive because we have different priorities, I couldn't agree more about the interior quality. It definitely has the feel of a higher end Toyota rather than what I'd expect from a Lexus, especially as a replacement for the GS. Very disappointing.

I don't think there is much to argue about. 300h is just not right engine for me, actually I completely agree there might be many people for whom it is just right, after all people buy BMW 520d etc. The problem has always been that Lexus does not provide alternative - if you want to stick with Lexus you have to go for 300h. Well OK one can go for LC500h or LS500h, but that is not realistic choice.

Secondly, what I have realised even more after short spin in ES - when you have such an engine like 300h, FWD or RWD really makes no difference. I always argue RWD point more from principal point of view... and yes in theory even 300h with RWD will have better balance, like RC300h feel very nice into and out of the corners. However, realistically there are so little power in 300h, that it makes very little difference in real life which wheels are driving.

The argument can be made - I should not even try what I know I am not going to like, kind of stupid if you know what outcome is going to be. But to be fair that is what I do - least time I booked test drive for BMW 530e the dealer called me back and said, you can have it this weekend in a form of 520d, mid-next week 530d or 6 weeks later 530e. And I said - fine I will wait 6 weeks, because there is no point for me to "test-drive" 520d. I can go and just sit in one to check build and design, but I want to drive car with specific engine. When it comes to Lexus.. again there are no choice of even waiting.

Ohhh.. and the last point to add. Regardless how old, rattly, high miles my car is after sitting in ES300h and going back to IS250 it felt literally like going from new Toyota, back into old Lexus. Take it as you wish, but I would rather want to feel like going from old Lexus into new Lexus after spending £43,000.

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On 3/30/2019 at 6:48 AM, The-Acre said:

It'll never be something I own but that "bag" which I assume is the gear shift looks dreadful, like something from the 80's.

Someone once told me Lexus built good well spec'd cars with quality materials up until 2006. anything after that was mediocre. and not just Lexus i have also seen this mediocre quality in other so called Luxury brand cars. they sure dont build them like they used to anymore at least Lexus overall is still a reliable brand on average..

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1 hour ago, noby76 said:

Someone once told me Lexus built good well spec'd cars with quality materials up until 2006. anything after that was mediocre. and not just Lexus i have also seen this mediocre quality in other so called Luxury brand cars. they sure dont build them like they used to anymore at least Lexus overall is still a reliable brand on average..

Same with Mercedes, the accountants have taken over ...

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I am not sure about 2006, does that includes model year 2006 aka every model introduced up to that time? For me personally it was introduction of CT which was clear way to bank on the badge without delivering much of the car. 2012 GS is still quite good - that is potentially why it is being killed, LS'es are continuing, but more entry models started suffering since ~ 2010-2011.

Second point regarding reliability, not every reliable car can claim to be "luxury", to be luxury you need much more then just reliability. I am sure ES is just as reliable and any other Lexus before it, but textured plastic shouts Toyota in the face.

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9 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

Same with Mercedes, the accountants have taken over ...

I do see it aswell in the new Mercedez/BMW compared to 90's and early 2000 models. yes a 2019 model will have newer toys than a spaceship would but you can just tell its not the same. not sure what new car buyers pay for these days when buying a luxury car. mediocre quality even when you put reliability aside. its more the badge if you ask me but whats the point in being 'exclusive' when every man and his dog drives one.. I'm not sure if the financial collapse experienced in 2008 has something to do with it but Luxury car models released afterwards are hit and miss in terms of quality with a few models still being well built in terms of material quality. the worse of the Luxury brands for me is Tesla interior build quality how can a car be worth that much and have such interior build.  no offence to Tesla owners

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‘Luxury’ doesn’t shift many cars though. If it’s not going to drive off at <£400/month on a PCP, it’s generally not worth a large manufacturer bothering to bring to market. 

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8 hours ago, noby76 said:

I do see it aswell in the new Mercedez/BMW compared to 90's and early 2000 models. yes a 2019 model will have newer toys than a spaceship would but you can just tell its not the same. not sure what new car buyers pay for these days when buying a luxury car. mediocre quality even when you put reliability aside. its more the badge if you ask me but whats the point in being 'exclusive' when every man and his dog drives one.. I'm not sure if the financial collapse experienced in 2008 has something to do with it but Luxury car models released afterwards are hit and miss in terms of quality with a few models still being well built in terms of material quality. the worse of the Luxury brands for me is Tesla interior build quality how can a car be worth that much and have such interior build.  no offence to Tesla owners

Yes Tesla is odd one... It is "techy" car but not really "luxury", the only thing which makes people call it luxury is the price i.e. based on price it goes directly against MB/BMW/Lexus high-end models, like M5 or AMG. Obviously, you as well get performance bonus, but Tesla is not actually "luxury" car, nothing about it is luxury. It used to be maybe exclusive, but even that is fading with the days - Model 3 best selling car in US period.

As well to note, it is not only Tesla interior which is extremely poorly built and I don't just mean not as good as Lexus... or not as good as BMW... it is worse than a Dacia... this is one rare times I am not even over-saturating. I literally got scared every-time I close Tesla doors from inside, they literally feel like they going to fall a part right now. And even things like body panels aliment are terrible - on the car on the showroom floor one side of the bonnet 12mm gap, other 4mm gap, rear doors drooping by 10mm, literally by the width of chrome trim highlighting the window line. Paint full of dust, orange peel like from the spray can and the bottom of the door even had ~not like run, but sort of extra tick paint on the edge where it solidified. 

Again, you would not find such shoddy finish on Dacia - yes cars nothing fancy, but they do not have literally defects out of factory. The only cars I know new to have such poor quality are those Chinese knock-offs and even those are getting better nowadays.

Don't want to be totally negative as there are parts of Tesla which really are bleeding edge advanced, bet that same drive-train with crazy acceleration or first mainstream car with autopilot... but the build quality is not their strength.

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Sounds like the Camry might be “the one” over the ES.


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10 hours ago, st4 said:

Sounds like the Camry might be “the one” over the ES.


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ST4, I am thinking the same 

Granted I did think that the ES F-sport looked nice inside and out but that was in January but thinking on, there are things I didn’t like and looked like corners have been cut. Linas P made very valid comments about the quality of the trim.   

I am interested in the ES with premium pack but that sits perilously close to £40,000 For that money, I expect more and the Camry Excel certainly ticks a few more boxes than the ES saving thousands plus an extra 2 year warranty and the same sole powerplant offering  People will say about Lexus quality but I think that has been curtailed somewhat in this offering.

The GS I have is better in my opinion but its harsh with how it got killed off. I guess that's the way of the world now with shifts in body shape preferences etc etc.

 

 

 

 

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Does all this not reflect today's consumer society, in which people are no longer interested in buying clothes, furniture, white goods, electronics... and cars that are going to last 20 years.

How many mobile phones are getting ditched after 2 years simply because we all have the opportunity to renew our contracts for a brand spanky new Iphone or other... when the old one still works perfectly fine!

Is it in manufacturers' interest to invest in building cars that are going to last longer than people really wanted them to?

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17 minutes ago, DanD said:

Does all this not reflect today's consumer society, in which people are no longer interested in buying clothes, furniture, white goods, electronics... and cars that are going to last 20 years.

How many mobile phones are getting ditched after 2 years simply because we all have the opportunity to renew our contracts for a brand spanky new iPhone or other... when the old one still works perfectly fine!

Is it in manufacturers' interest to invest in building cars that are going to last longer than people really wanted them to?

Take a look at this 28 year old Toyota Crown Royal.. an example of a car built to last. i love the digital dash and swivel vents by the way.. they sure dont build it like these anymore

 

 

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if you look closely, you can literally see that interior materials are generally the same in Toyota Avalon as is in Lexus ES:

 

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On 3/30/2019 at 6:29 AM, Hangie said:

I've seen UX yesterday (and ES like month ago). Both feel very upscale Toyota like. In the UX what made the worst expression was passenger door panel - it was just bit of plastic with lonely looking door handle

new-2019-lexus-ux-ux200fsportfwd-7235-18

On the other hand my reason of visit to Lexus Twickenham was GS F they got there. What a car it made me smile twice in first 60 seconds - first when you start the engine and then when you join the traffic from dealer lot. Even in everything in normal settings and accelerating in 1/2-3/4 throttle rear was very nicely "dancing".

Only regret I got are the seats which doesn't fell too comfortable for longer drive as my GS, plus brakes doesn't seem to be very sharp but they might not be up to the temperature after short test drive. 

Have to agree with on the UX interior , I looked in 3 of them at Lexus Canterbury, and the interior was disappointing especially the interior door panels, just one piece of cheap moulded plastic . I looked in a NX and it seems far superior 

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Out of 3 SUVs, RX has best materials e.g. soft leather door trim, but overall NX interior was most attractive for me for some reason, overall layout more modern, controls more accessible. However, overall none of new cars felt like Lexus... Toyota RAV4 perhaps. 

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Forgive me, but I feel you being A bit unrealistic with the standard of interior quality Lexus should be providing.  The es F sport with the Takumi pack is a circa £43k car, sounds a lot of money until you spec up a comparable rival model.  An E class hybrid of a comparable spec would be circa £53k, but the Lexus should still have a better interior? Add in the exclusivity of the low sales volume of the ESand it starts to look good value.   

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New review out from Savagegeese.com on the ES350. 

I think this one exactly catches the spirit, the dna of the car. The best review i have seen so far, yes very critical but pinpointing what the ES is about.

 

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9 hours ago, fetchez la vache said:

Forgive me, but I feel you being A bit unrealistic with the standard of interior quality Lexus should be providing.  The es F sport with the Takumi pack is a circa £43k car, sounds a lot of money until you spec up a comparable rival model.  An E class hybrid of a comparable spec would be circa £53k, but the Lexus should still have a better interior? Add in the exclusivity of the low sales volume of the ESand it starts to look good value.   

You're probably right - given current universal trends for cutting quality whilst raising prices - that it was unrealistic to expect the ES to have the same quality materials as the GS, given that the previous generation ES was never the GS's equal. However, I think some of us were living in the hope that because the final pricing of the ES in the UK was so high (a GS 300h Premier was actually cheaper than the ES 300h Takumi) then the material quality of the ES would have been brought up to scratch. It clearly hasn't, and I think it's understandable to be disappointed at the relative crapness of its interior materials compared to the GS.

That said, I suspect I'm getting too old for my comments to have much validity these days. I can't really argue that the ES looks good value in a market where people are actually expected to pay £20k for a boggo Ford Focus Zetec. But that market, in my mind, is simply insane and in my old-fashioned head I can't get past the idea that £43k is an obscene amount of money to pay for any car that isn't either properly luxurious or properly fast.

I will happily admit that I am tragically out of touch with mass market reality, but I suspect I'm not the only one who thinks like that. I also suspect few GS owners will be trading down to an ES - if I'm going to have to settle for in inferior interior, I'll take the Camry and £10k every time, thanks. However, I expect that Lexus have already factored that in. GS owners are a tiny minority anyway, and the ES is well placed to attract ex-diesel refugees from other 'premium' marques. 

On 4/19/2019 at 9:36 PM, Linas.P said:

Out of 3 SUVs, RX has best materials e.g. soft leather door trim, but overall NX interior was most attractive for me for some reason, overall layout more modern, controls more accessible. However, overall none of new cars felt like Lexus... Toyota RAV4 perhaps. 

Toyota interior materials and design have come on massively in the last few years, haven't they? I'd say the C-HR feels as 'premium' as a CT inside, if not more, especially in Excel spec with the quilting. Even my Prius PHV is nicely-built of tidy materials, in an interesting design. I'm sure the new Corolla and Camry will feel the same. 

For those of us who place actual user experience over badge snobbery, Toyota increasingly offers a relatively appealing alternative to the lower-end Lexus models. Of course, out there in the real world, badge snobbery is very much alive and well...

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12 hours ago, fetchez la vache said:

Forgive me, but I feel you being A bit unrealistic with the standard of interior quality Lexus should be providing.  The es F sport with the Takumi pack is a circa £43k car, sounds a lot of money until you spec up a comparable rival model.  An E class hybrid of a comparable spec would be circa £53k, but the Lexus should still have a better interior? Add in the exclusivity of the low sales volume of the ESand it starts to look good value.   

E class hybrid is car of totally different league... not comparable even at the slightest. It is full size luxury saloon ~GS450h equivalent. E350e is as well fast RWD car 0-60 in 6s, Lexus simply no longer have such engine option on offer, it used to be 450h... so you comparing apples to oranges here. Obviously, E350e is much more expensive car, not because of the option, but because of the engine and class. There isn't really good Lexus equivalent in MB range, but the closest would be E220d, overall closest would be Chinese market CLA220L (long wheel base version). So yes E350e is not only more expensive than ES300h, but as well more expensive than E220d... better engine options tends to be more expensive - kind of common sense?!

2 hours ago, Ten Ninety said:

Toyota interior materials and design have come on massively in the last few years, haven't they? I'd say the C-HR feels as 'premium' as a CT inside, if not more, especially in Excel spec with the quilting. Even my Prius PHV is nicely-built of tidy materials, in an interesting design. I'm sure the new Corolla and Camry will feel the same. 

For those of us who place actual user experience over badge snobbery, Toyota increasingly offers a relatively appealing alternative to the lower-end Lexus models. Of course, out there in the real world, badge snobbery is very much alive and well...

Indeed... Toyota is straight on target (as always really, hence biggest car maker). Current, Toyota range offer exceptional quality cars, but at the same time nothing fancy... and that is exactly where they need to be, exactly what Toyota buyer expects. If you want something fancy from Toyota, then you go and buy Lexus... but what a disappointment it is when you find exactly same interior in ES as £5000 cheaper Toyota Camry... And Lexus here is way off mark - what is the point of it's existence if they cannot even make "fancier" Toyota anymore.

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Firstly, E class and ES are preceusly in the same segment.  But Ok, spec up an Audi A6 2.0tdi to the same level as an ES Fsport Takumi, again , it’s a £50k plus motor.  My point is, you cannot have everything, if you want better materials, but the more expensive car.  

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