Linas.P

ohhh... last again?

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Every car is built to a budget.  Clearly with Toyota and Lexus more of that budget goes on build quality and reliability than the competition.

This is where these reviews really fail to deliver.  They don't take into account people who want to keep the car after it is out of warranty or care about the build quality of the vehicle.  BMW and Mercedes are not built like they once were and I hear so many horror stories with BMW these days.  Infact they've been cr#p since the E39.  There's no way I'd touch one, but I don't do big mileages and lease new cars for 3 years at £300-500 per month.  Instead I do a few thousand miles a year and appreciate the quality and reliability of my GS.

That being said, I really don't like the look of the ES compared to the GS and even with fancy suspension it is still a big heavy car with FWD which doesn't excite me.  Toyota are becoming more classy so might consider a Camry next time as it's got the same chassis and will be cheaper.  Or I may finally get an SUV like the Rav4, although I'm not a huge fan of SUVs.  There needs to be a reason to spend more on a Lexus and I'm not sure the ES gives me reason to do so.

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9 hours ago, DaveWebDesigner said:

BMW and Mercedes are not built like they once were and I hear so many horror stories with BMW these days.  Infact they've been cr#p since the E39.  There's no way I'd touch one, but I don't do big mileages and lease new cars for 3 years at £300-500 per month.  Instead I do a few thousand miles a year and appreciate the quality and reliability of my GS.

 

I've owned an E82 and currently a 340i F30 . BMW appear to have got their act together recently and trust me I was a cynic. 

The only issue I've had is a misted headlight replaced under warranty so I can't agree with you and say they are crap.The N55 and the B58 engines are superb, the build quality is absolutely on par with the IS I part ex'd before the E87 and the IS I part ex'd for the F30. 

That said, the proof is further down the line as we all know but I don't wait that long. I promise to update people when something goes wrong, that said there's a guy on another thread decamping to Alfa, perhaps he will beat me to it :wink3:

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It is not ES but would be nice to have such a powertrain back home. 

Still haven’t seen any new ES though, mainly RX, LS, NX and LX.

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12 hours ago, DaveWebDesigner said:

This is where these reviews really fail to deliver.

No.. you missing the point. All reviews are reviewing car as it is now i.e. "new with warranty". For most of new car buyers reliability (within reason) is irrelevant, I don't know exact figure so don't quote me on that but like 70% of new cars are leased. This means buyers literally do not care how reliable car will be 60k miles and 5 years down the road. Even the worst new cars would still cover 100k without much of an issue, by which time they will be long long time part-exed.

Reliability becomes a factor only in used car market, but for that you should look Scotty Kilmer or Regulal Car reviews, or whatever 3rd tier channels...  not Car wow.

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18 hours ago, Linas.P said:

No.. you missing the point. All reviews are reviewing car as it is now i.e. "new with warranty". For most of new car buyers reliability (within reason) is irrelevant, I don't know exact figure so don't quote me on that but like 70% of new cars are leased. This means buyers literally do not care how reliable car will be 60k miles and 5 years down the road. Even the worst new cars would still cover 100k without much of an issue, by which time they will be long long time part-exed.

Reliability becomes a factor only in used car market, but for that you should look Scotty Kilmer or Regulal Car reviews, or whatever 3rd tier channels...  not Car wow.

Oh I am fully aware of that which I why I say I am not one of the people leasing new cars.

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15 hours ago, DaveWebDesigner said:

Oh I am fully aware of that which I why I say I am not one of the people leasing new cars.

...But most of the market are and the review is for them - for the people leasing new cars. That is literally what car wow does.

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Don't want to start another thread essentially bashing crater which is called Lexus ES300h... + it is kind of related to the review when it comes comparing hybrid to the diesel.

Some might be aware of the advertising campaign, not sure if it is aired in UK as I don't really watch TV, but it can be found on youtube - called "Lexus add created by AI". What we certainly get in UK is the letter (I guess if you are Lexus owner or Talk to Lexus club member)... so I have received one - obviously for me it is just short of insulting and that is why I continue pouring my dissatisfaction with where the Lexus has gone.

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Where it relates to this thread - Lexus compares themselves based on BIK to exactly same 3 diesel rivals:

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Obviously, they make big deal from BIK, but fails to mention the other 3 are better, faster cars and overall cost less to finance based on normal 3 year lease. And BIK only counts if you could get company car - if you leasing yourself it makes literally no difference.

What pisses me off the most is obviously this:

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ES is "lighter" and "faster" than IS... fu***** BS. why did you even put obvious lie?! maybe "AI" compared it to mk3 IS specs, not mk2... poor AI I would say... but the problem is that ES300h is heavier than both an slower then both - more leg room for the passengers.. that is true, but "faster" and "quicker" that really annoys me. And then I have to fight horde trolls claiming it is, because Lexus said so and they never bothered to actually fact check-it. And when I do fact checking for them and prove it is heavier and slower - the answer is... "well yes, but it does not matter". If it does not matter why do you think marketing people put it there? Because it does matter, but after sinking a lot of money in buying new slower and heavier car is little bit "inconvenient" to admit. 

Overall, very nice letter - design wise cannot fault it, but advertisement has to have some reverence to the truth.. no it is just obvious lie targeting fools... And the video itself maybe would be suitable for ES-F if they decide to make one, but for ES300h it makes me cringe... yeah sure engine which has not power to even move the car properly broke 1000hp which used for crash testing... what a farce.

 

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Ok so AI wrote the script of video, but then pesky human in Lexus HQ UK added blatant lies to spicy-it-up aka ruin it... Well done Lexus! I think to summarise - good products don't need elaborate advertisement, but sh*** products like ES... throw AI at it, champagne, gold dust it is so fundamentally bad... nothing even lies not going to make it look better. And what is all about "intuitive people"... I think you playing fools game here - any intuitive person should sense this (letter specifically) to be lie.

 

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Just dont compare the car and drive it as it is, a fine vehicle for people that get it.

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@Linas.P You're right about the comparison to the IS, according to their own brochures the ES is heavier and slower (both 0-60 and top speed). I'd be interested to see how they explain that away.

My letter says the ES is 50kg lighter than the GS and has quicker mid-range acceleration. Comparing the ES brochure to my handbook, it does look like it's lighter although I can't verify the 50kg. I also can't verify the faster mid-range acceleration because they don't publish any figures that I've seen.

On the BIK information, it's an advert so they're obviously only going to share the information that show their product in a better light than the competition. Everyone who is selling something does it, so you can't single Lexus out for that. It tends to make me wonder if BIK is the only definitively positive thing they can advertise about the ES compared to the other cars though. Apart from specs, objectively maybe it is...

I think you're missing the point of the video, it's not suggesting that the engine can resist the force of the winch, it's the brakes and tyres. They show the brake lights go on and don't even suggest that the transmission is engaged. Also "engine which has not power to even move the car properly" spoils your argument a bit, the engine is not powerful enough for you, it is plenty powerful enough for the car. I think you're confusing your opinion with the facts.

 

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The BIK part I have no issue with, I have included it because of the statement - "why everyone compares hybrid to diesel?", this is why Lexus does it themselves. And I don't have an issue with clearly advertisement part of the... well advertisement. However, I think we both agree that the part where it says lighter and faster is borderline "misleading advertisement".

When it comes to video, you probably could interpret it that way.. it used brakes to break winch - that probably makes more sense actually. But just before car stopping you can hear car revving-up and tacho-needle going all the way up. The sound ES300h makes apparently is V8 super-car - that is where I have a problem... it is hard to deny they play on car "dynamics" which is ES300h weakest point. Obviously, me saying it is hardly powerful enough to move the car is subjective and I do not even consider somebody would take it seriously, but my first point is that Lexus clearly sees power, speed, acceleration and sound the key to the car appeal - all things ES do not have. It does however have style, economy, reliability and arguably build quality - apart style Lexus doesn't really show other strong areas of the car.

Second point is that Lexus build unrealistic expectation for their "self-charging hybrids" - with my reasonable hat on I can say they are "okey cars", but Lexus keeps advertising them as "capable sports cars" which leads to disappointment when you actually get into one. I don't know if that means Lexus advertisement worked on me and I am the only one who took it too literally... maybe other people only look into BIK figures at the bottom of advert?!

@dutchie01 - I know being ignorant for facts makes life so much easier ( that is not to say you ignorant) ... I am just different person, I actually care that my choice is objectively right. Sometimes however I have to point this out to myself - "Linas you have been researching hex vs torx wood screws for 2 hours now - the box of 200 is £2.99... just click 'buy now' because it is too trivial to even care to research". However, when talking about 1 in 3-5 years purchase for £30-£40k.. that is not trivial so I could get hang-up for a while 🙂 

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17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

And when I do fact checking for them and prove it is heavier and slower - the answer is... "well yes, but it does not matter". If it does not matter why do you think marketing people put it there? Because it does matter, but after sinking a lot of money in buying new slower and heavier car is little bit "inconvenient" to admit. 

Love it! lol! They hate (any car manufacture) when you tell them facts! 

@spacenase mentioned that it is 50kg lighter than a GS model, is the GS not a bigger class model?

Even if it is the same class it could do better than 50kg, most new cars try to shed off up to 100kg when the new model comes out.

Anyway, don't want to get arguing here but I think @Linas.P is right in most arguments he mentioned.

 

 

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On 5/25/2019 at 11:45 AM, Linas.P said:

...and don't you start me with your shenanigans that the press is "biased against Lexus"... all is very objective (cannot fault any of the comments at all), by any measurable way it is worst car of the 4 and that is because it is outclassed. Lexus put this car in wrong category, it took away it chances of being good... Is not that much of the issue with the car as much as it is an issue of it being placed deliberately by Lexus in the wrong place at the wrong time. Enjoy..

 

I have an ES on order and have had a three hour test drive. So, not much Lexus driving experience BUT I have driven 500,000 miles in BMW 4 cylinder diesels and 90,000 miles in the E class with the new 4 cylinder diesel.

These have all been great cars but when starting up and at slow speeds/around town/heavy traffic the Lexus is without question both quieter and smoother. At speed there is little difference.

Sure, the Lexus won't handle.as fluently but if you need to drive 200-300 miles a day it is less important.  

The BIK tax saving is significant too!

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1 hour ago, JNK100 said:

The BIK tax saving is significant too!

For what Lexus ES is wouldn't BIK saving be better on BMW330e and MB C350e?

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Yes, but they are smaller cars and equivalent to an IS. A 530e SE with a lower spec. than the base ES would save around £70 per month but lease costs would be around £200 a month more for high-mileage drivers.

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3 minutes ago, JNK100 said:

Yes, but they are smaller cars and equivalent to an IS. A 530e SE with a lower spec. than the base ES would save around £70 per month but lease costs would be around £200 a month more for high-mileage drivers.

And he keeps forgetting the fact that not everyone wants to be seen in a BMW, Merc, or Audi some people just want something different from these three..

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That's true, nice to have something different to the horde! 

Plus better choice of colours , not just silver or greys....

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ES is not in the same league with 5-Series or E-Class, no matter how hard Lexus would try to market it as such, I give you that it is equivalent to 4-Series GC, not 3-series. Secondly, I find it hard to believe rear legroom is that much important for high mileage drivers (unless we talking exec-taxis here). I can appreciate the sentiment of having something different from the rest, yet somehow don't see appeal when that something different is so much worse.

Finally, what exactly you find wrong about the statement that "ES is for drivers who don't care about driving?" Seems to fit your case - comfortable and quiet place to be and don't care about speeds or handling... isn't that correct then? 

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13 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Finally, what exactly you find wrong about the statement that "ES is for drivers who don't care about driving?" Seems to fit your case - comfortable and quiet place to be and don't care about speeds or handling... isn't that correct then? 

In general terms no, because you are assuming that the only type of driving to care about is fast driving on country lanes, closed roads or tracks. Why isn't the way a car handles the cut and thrust of a busy motorway important to those who care about driving? Why isn't the way the car handles pot-holed side roads and slow traffic queues important to those who care about driving? Those are the situations most people face day-to-day whether they care about driving or not. You don't have to be a sports car worshipping petrol-head to care about driving and some online car reviews focus on these other aspects more these days.

I've never bought into the concept that you have to be a sports car fan to care about driving, because I'm not a fan of sports cars and I love driving. I really dislike the Top Gear style reviews and the way that a lot of the car magazines seem to think that the sports trim is the only trim of interest in a model range, to be honest I'm far more interested in whether the ones at the luxury end of the range can provide a good compromise between comfort and handling or not. That doesn't mean I don't care about driving. The problem with your statement is that it is dismissive and wrong.

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On 6/22/2019 at 2:03 PM, JNK100 said:

That's true, nice to have something different to the horde! 

Plus better choice of colours , not just silver or greys....

Just driven up from Andalusia via Madrid, Bordeaux, Rouen and Calais.

.Audi`s BMW`s and Merc`s all of the way.

4 Lexus, only.

Oh to be different and superior!

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On 6/23/2019 at 2:02 PM, spacenase said:

In general terms no, because you are assuming that the only type of driving to care about is fast driving on country lanes, closed roads or tracks. Why isn't the way a car handles the cut and thrust of a busy motorway important to those who care about driving? Why isn't the way the car handles pot-holed side roads and slow traffic queues important to those who care about driving? Those are the situations most people face day-to-day whether they care about driving or not. 

And this was the point i made either a few threads up or in another thread about when it comes to "Real World" driving and road conditions, Lexus cars are setup and designed to handle majority of those conditions in terms of noise vibration harshness (NVH) when compared to other competitors.. but yet still a UK/European magazine reviewer will bash the ES300h claiming its noisy under full wide open throttle acceleration which lets be honest is about 10% or less in anyone's day to day driving 80 to 90% of normal driving is spent within city urban areas with speed limits or cruising on the motorway in a fuel saving gear ratio .. tell me which 2.0 litre  4 cylinder engines from any of these German brands is not noisier and sounds agricultural under acceleration? they fail to absorb the benefits of the hybrid system which makes sense in city/ urban style driving . majority of most people driving around in diesel cars are not even motorway drivers where one actually reaps the benefits of a diesel engine...

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On 6/23/2019 at 2:02 PM, spacenase said:

In general terms no, because you are assuming that the only type of driving to care about is fast driving on country lanes, closed roads or tracks. Why isn't the way a car handles the cut and thrust of a busy motorway important to those who care about driving? Why isn't the way the car handles pot-holed side roads and slow traffic queues important to those who care about driving? Those are the situations most people face day-to-day whether they care about driving or not. You don't have to be a sports car worshipping petrol-head to care about driving and some online car reviews focus on these other aspects more these days.

I've never bought into the concept that you have to be a sports car fan to care about driving, because I'm not a fan of sports cars and I love driving. I really dislike the Top Gear style reviews and the way that a lot of the car magazines seem to think that the sports trim is the only trim of interest in a model range, to be honest I'm far more interested in whether the ones at the luxury end of the range can provide a good compromise between comfort and handling or not. That doesn't mean I don't care about driving. The problem with your statement is that it is dismissive and wrong.

 

10 hours ago, noby76 said:

And this was the point i made either a few threads up or in another thread about when it comes to "Real World" driving and road conditions, Lexus cars are setup and designed to handle majority of those conditions in terms of noise vibration harshness (NVH) when compared to other competitors.. but yet still a UK/European magazine reviewer will bash the ES300h claiming its noisy under full wide open throttle acceleration which lets be honest is about 10% or less in anyone's day to day driving 80 to 90% of normal driving is spent within city urban areas with speed limits or cruising on the motorway in a fuel saving gear ratio .. tell me which 2.0 litre  4 cylinder engines from any of these German brands is not noisier and sounds agricultural under acceleration? they fail to absorb the benefits of the hybrid system which makes sense in city/ urban style driving . majority of most people driving around in diesel cars are not even motorway drivers where one actually reaps the benefits of a diesel engine...

So well put. Much better than I could.

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On 6/23/2019 at 2:02 PM, spacenase said:

In general terms no, because you are assuming that the only type of driving to care about is fast driving on country lanes, closed roads or tracks. Why isn't the way a car handles the cut and thrust of a busy motorway important to those who care about driving? Why isn't the way the car handles pot-holed side roads and slow traffic queues important to those who care about driving? Those are the situations most people face day-to-day whether they care about driving or not. You don't have to be a sports car worshipping petrol-head to care about driving and some online car reviews focus on these other aspects more these days.

I've never bought into the concept that you have to be a sports car fan to care about driving, because I'm not a fan of sports cars and I love driving. I really dislike the Top Gear style reviews and the way that a lot of the car magazines seem to think that the sports trim is the only trim of interest in a model range, to be honest I'm far more interested in whether the ones at the luxury end of the range can provide a good compromise between comfort and handling or not. That doesn't mean I don't care about driving. The problem with your statement is that it is dismissive and wrong.

Ok... so the issue is in translation, it seems we use different definitions for the same terms - in short we both talking about totally different things. Actually, it is not my statement which is "dismissive and wrong"! I guess you can call it inconsiderate for "non-car people" values, however it is you who is dismissive and even challenge the idea of "petrolhead" values being valid. Whenever wrong or right that is different question altogether - (spoiler alert) I don't think there actually is "right", just millions of different perspectives.

"The Top Gear style" and the way "all car magazines seems to think" is not a "concept" is the way petrolhead looks at the car. I think it is worth clarifying what is "petrolhead" based on publicly available definitions:

  • a person who is interested in or is devoted to travelling by car (Collins)
  • someone who likes and uses their car a lot, and does not want to use any other type of transport (Cambridge)
  • a person involved in motor racing as either participant or dedicated spectator

Often they as well slap "excessive", "crazy", "overly reliant", "show off" to above definitions, but that is not exactly objective, rather applies to any enthusiast - petrolhead simply being "car enthusiast". What you are basically saying is that you are not petrolhead and petrolhead values are not close to yours. If you ever consider whenever it would be better to drive your car or be driven by chauffeur (or AI in case of self-driving car), that is already a sign. It is important to note that being "non-car person" is in no way worse than being petrolhead or vice versa - everyone are entitled to their own values. However, that is what Top Gear means when saying "for people who do care about driving" -  they mean very specifically "the driving" in petrolhead definition - that is "fast driving on country lanes, closed roads or tracks (or like hooligan in the traffic)".

The way a car handles on busy motorway is not important to those who care about the driving, because there is nothing sophisticated about staying in straight line for prolonged period of time (unless we talking 200mph on autobahn) - it is literally most dreary type of driving, nobody gets excited about that. Same goes for being stuck in traffic - this is not driving it is punishment. How car absorbs the pot holes - that is comfort, not handling or the driving. The situations people face day-to-day is not the driving either, that is commuting. From my perspective and I would claim I am petrolhead all new cars sold in UK today are "good enough" for such daily/dreary tasks - that is something described as "a box to go from A to B".

In summary - "the driving", "the handling" and other car related terms are not just any handling and any driving, but something very specific and very important for petrolhead. If you speak to enthusiast of any thing and any sort - model making, sailing, gardening etc. they all going to have some very special view which might not be shared by non-enthusiasts. 

Now finally, what is right or what is wrong - any mainstream car reviews are adjusted for petrolheads and any car advertisement (look for ES one above - rumbling engines, smoking tyres, twisty roads) are aimed at the petrolhead values. The wording they use have specific meaning for car enthusiasts, whereas you probably take them as more generic claims - if you can turn on the engine and drive the car that is not "the driving", if car can literally go around the corner - that is not "the handling". Now...are you wrong? - in some sense yes, you just associate different values to the terms and thus miss the point. Does that makes your values wrong? - no, you just have different values and that is fine. But then don't have distaste for reviews and the way they focus on certain values - reviews are done by petrolheads for petrolheads, if you not one just bear that in mind and only take what you care about, but don't say that values they focus on are wrong, because then the same can be said about yours!

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23 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 you just have different values and that is fine. But then don't have distaste for reviews and the way they focus on certain values - reviews are done by petrolheads for petrolheads, if you not one just bear that in mind and only take what you care about, but don't say that values they focus on are wrong, because then the same can be said about yours!

They miss the target when they apply 'petrolhead values'  emphasise on a vehicle like ES300h which is not and isn't pretending to be a high performance car.. if one wants a lovely sounding 4 cylinder, a 4 cylindr diesel or 4 cylinder petrol revving less than 6500rpm wouldnt cut it anyway..  7000rpm and up that's when you talking.. so why apply these 'petrolhead values' emphasise on an ES300h when its far from one is beyond me..

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9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Ok... so the issue is in translation, it seems we use different definitions for the same terms - in short we both talking about totally different things. Actually, it is not my statement which is "dismissive and wrong"! I guess you can call it inconsiderate for "non-car people" values, however it is you who is dismissive and even challenge the idea of "petrolhead" values being valid. Whenever wrong or right that is different question altogether - (spoiler alert) I don't think there actually is "right", just millions of different perspectives.

"The Top Gear style" and the way "all car magazines seems to think" is not a "concept" is the way petrolhead looks at the car. I think it is worth clarifying what is "petrolhead" based on publicly available definitions:

  • a person who is interested in or is devoted to travelling by car (Collins)
  • someone who likes and uses their car a lot, and does not want to use any other type of transport (Cambridge)
  • a person involved in motor racing as either participant or dedicated spectator

Often they as well slap "excessive", "crazy", "overly reliant", "show off" to above definitions, but that is not exactly objective, rather applies to any enthusiast - petrolhead simply being "car enthusiast". What you are basically saying is that you are not petrolhead and petrolhead values are not close to yours. If you ever consider whenever it would be better to drive your car or be driven by chauffeur (or AI in case of self-driving car), that is already a sign. It is important to note that being "non-car person" is in no way worse than being petrolhead or vice versa - everyone are entitled to their own values. However, that is what Top Gear means when saying "for people who do care about driving" -  they mean very specifically "the driving" in petrolhead definition - that is "fast driving on country lanes, closed roads or tracks (or like hooligan in the traffic)".

The way a car handles on busy motorway is not important to those who care about the driving, because there is nothing sophisticated about staying in straight line for prolonged period of time (unless we talking 200mph on autobahn) - it is literally most dreary type of driving, nobody gets excited about that. Same goes for being stuck in traffic - this is not driving it is punishment. How car absorbs the pot holes - that is comfort, not handling or the driving. The situations people face day-to-day is not the driving either, that is commuting. From my perspective and I would claim I am petrolhead all new cars sold in UK today are "good enough" for such daily/dreary tasks - that is something described as "a box to go from A to B".

In summary - "the driving", "the handling" and other car related terms are not just any handling and any driving, but something very specific and very important for petrolhead. If you speak to enthusiast of any thing and any sort - model making, sailing, gardening etc. they all going to have some very special view which might not be shared by non-enthusiasts. 

Now finally, what is right or what is wrong - any mainstream car reviews are adjusted for petrolheads and any car advertisement (look for ES one above - rumbling engines, smoking tyres, twisty roads) are aimed at the petrolhead values. The wording they use have specific meaning for car enthusiasts, whereas you probably take them as more generic claims - if you can turn on the engine and drive the car that is not "the driving", if car can literally go around the corner - that is not "the handling". Now...are you wrong? - in some sense yes, you just associate different values to the terms and thus miss the point. Does that makes your values wrong? - no, you just have different values and that is fine. But then don't have distaste for reviews and the way they focus on certain values - reviews are done by petrolheads for petrolheads, if you not one just bear that in mind and only take what you care about, but don't say that values they focus on are wrong, because then the same can be said about yours!

Thanks for the detailed response and I fully accept that we have different views on this and we can both be considered right and wrong depending upon viewpoint of the reader.

So, I'm not sure if you have listed three different definitions of a petrolhead or whether they were intended as three requirements to be called a petrolhead, but I definitely fit the description of the first two. I have a mild interest in motor racing, but most of it I can take or leave. Does that make me a petrolhead, or am I missing a key ingredient? In my mind, I am one because of a life-long interest and enthusiasm of road cars. To be honest, that's why I was careful to put "sports car worshipping petrolhead" because I don't think you have to be a sports car lover to be a petrolhead. Isn't the classic car lover in their Rolls Royce, Jaguar XJ or Austin Allegro an enthusiast? Or are they excluded because they are not looking to charge around the country lanes pushing their car to its limits? What I am saying is that I think you are defining a sports car enthusiast, the definition of a car enthusiast is much wider than you suggest and not all of them base their hobby around speed and handling.

I think you missed my point on the busy motorway comment, because on a busy motorway you do not get to drive in a straight line for long periods. You end up slowing down and speeding up with the traffic, looking for the overtaking opportunities, trying to choose the right time to change lanes, showing the 65mph motorist that hogging the middle lane when the inside lane is empty is not a good choice (😉) and finally getting the freedom to put your foot down for a bit when the traffic clears. It may not be testing the limits of the car, but it can test your driving and be both frustrating and rewarding particularly if you are trying to be a responsible driver at the same time. Some cars handle it a lot better than others as you'd expect. If you haven't experienced this, I can recommend driving the length of the M40 most days, you'll see all these events.

I admit I'm stretching my point a bit with the slow traffic comment, but cars do handle queues differently. I have 2 cars at present, my GS accelerates quickly enough as soon as I press the accelerator pedal (thanks to the electric motor), doesn't jerk between gear changes (because it has none), comes smoothly to a halt and is always in the power band when I need to go. My Skoda has to restart the engine before I can accelerate if I don't turn the Stop/Start system off, can often give a jerky gear change especially when coming to a halt and drops out of the power band so it feels like it is suffering from turbo lag. These don't particularly relate to speed and handling, but all of them affect how much I like the car, which is the important part. With regard to the potholes comment, comfort and handling go hand-in-hand. If the entire car shudders, or the steering wheel jerks whenever you go over a pothole at slow speed, imagine how it would feel if it happened part way round a fast bend. Again, my point is that the "Top Gear" definition of how a car handles on the limit is not the whole story of how good or bad a car is and just because I don't see that as a top priority for me, it doesn't make me any less of a petrolhead or car enthusiast.

So I think you are portraying a narrow definition of an enthusiast, they come in all shapes and sizes and how fast a car accelerates, its top speed and how well it can go round a fast corner is not the only criteria. I know we've had this discussion before, but I wanted to make the point again that the things you see as important are not always the things that others see as important (as you say above), but importantly that does not make anyone else more or less of a petrolhead or car enthusiast than you. Having said that, if there is an official definition that says that handling and speed are the top priority, then I take it back and consider myself a... car liker perhaps?

By the way. I think I have seen enough of the "Top Gear" and magazine type of reports to understand the specific meanings of the terms they use and do you know what, I've even experienced some of them! Sorry if that comes across as a bit of a shock for you. Please stop making assumptions about the type of person I am, you still don't know me or what I've experienced and you are coming across as insulting. Try and keep your responses to the points made rather than making it personal.

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