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Makes sense. Crossovers are selling like hot cakes and the platform and drivetrain already exists seems like an easy decision to me. The article states "tiny and small" but isnt this yaris bigger than the standard yaris and if so will it come close to the UX?

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What is wrong with people today 🙄

As someone who prefers saloon and hatchback cars, I can't understand the desire from people for tall, bigger cars.  I don't blame the manufacturers since they are only reacting to demand, but it is a shame that 'normal' cars are disappearing fast.

No offense intended, but the size of RX's, BMW X5's and Audi Q5's are bordering on the ridiculous now and there is just no need for such a large car.

The old highway code used to say to look through the car in front to see any potential hazards before they are too close, but that is not possible in my GS now.  Not to mention the parking problem as they are sometimes too big to fit in a single bay.

Back on topic, this stems from the article claiming that this new car is to be considered 'tiny', which demonstrates the sad stat of affairs.

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23 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

I don't blame the manufacturers since they are only reacting to demand, but it is a shame that 'normal' cars are disappearing fast.

I actually don't buy this claim i.e. "that they are reacting to demand". I think it is exactly manufacturers to blame that they marketed SUVs... if they would have marketed something else people will want something else. 

Take for example Fiat500 - it is not SUV, but Fiat did a lot of job in marketing it and it is selling like hot cake relatively speaking. The truth behind why car manufacturers wants to sell more SUVs is that SUV cost no more to make than coupe or saloon, but generally by being bigger can be priced higher. Simply said SUV has higher profit margin. 

It is little bit far fetched, but it is manufacturers (or some manufacturers) who are pushing SUVs and thus are marketing them for last 2 decades. Therefore after 2 decades of brainwashing now people actually prefers SUVs.

As for parking spaces - they don't fit because majority of parking spaces does not meet requirements. It is considered that parking space should be at minimum 2.4 x 4.8 metres. It is almost never 2.4 metres wide not to mention UK standard is already one of the smallest in the world. In US you can park car sideways into parking space and still have some space to spare 😄 (although that is probably the only positive thing about US).

Finally, I am with you when it comes to "normal cars" - I just hate SUVs and it is sad that normal cars are disappearing, I consider that SUVs are overall almost "anti-social". Indeed with majority of cars nowadays being SUVs you simply could not see anything in front of you... and that has domino effect. People want to see where the yare driving and thus they are getting SUVs as well. For this reason I would support additional "SUV tax", rather than considering it "normal" car. 

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2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I actually don't buy this claim i.e. "that they are reacting to demand". I think it is exactly manufacturers to blame that they marketed SUVs... if they would have marketed something else people will want something else. 

Take for example Fiat500 - it is not SUV, but Fiat did a lot of job in marketing it and it is selling like hot cake relatively speaking. The truth behind why car manufacturers wants to sell more SUVs is that SUV cost no more to make than coupe or saloon, but generally by being bigger can be priced higher. Simply said SUV has higher profit margin. 

It is little bit far fetched, but it is manufacturers (or some manufacturers) who are pushing SUVs and thus are marketing them for last 2 decades. Therefore after 2 decades of brainwashing now people actually prefers SUVs.

As for parking spaces - they don't fit because majority of parking spaces does not meet requirements. It is considered that parking space should be at minimum 2.4 x 4.8 metres. It is almost never 2.4 metres wide not to mention UK standard is already one of the smallest in the world. In US you can park car sideways into parking space and still have some space to spare 😄 (although that is probably the only positive thing about US).

Finally, I am with you when it comes to "normal cars" - I just hate SUVs and it is sad that normal cars are disappearing, I consider that SUVs are overall almost "anti-social". Indeed with majority of cars nowadays being SUVs you simply could not see anything in front of you... and that has domino effect. People want to see where the yare driving and thus they are getting SUVs as well. For this reason I would support additional "SUV tax", rather than considering it "normal" car. 

I think Linas your comment deserves some analysis 😁. Range Rover the original SUV? has been around since 1948 creating or reacting to demand? And if its demand creation and anti-social as you say, then you are saying manufacturers are anti-social, do you have left-leaning tendencies? Generally speaking if a thing is bigger it consumes more material, energy, labour etc., so hard to see how it costs the same? And do they really have a higher margin or in fact a margin at all since it's not a given that all cars sell at a profit.? I give way on parking spaces since all cars have got much bigger over the years, witness the mini, space has not increased in line. Finally Linas I worry about your line "I just hate SUV's" this is a very strong emotional response to what is just a car after all, have you considered counselling before it turns to violence,? The suggestion of taxation is already showing an early vindictive streak🤔😂

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don't think fiat 500 is the best example you could have used 😄

original 500 was a great little car

relaunch 500 was a great "small" car

500L is a great little no wait, small no wait medi??? no wait scrap that bigger than an RX450

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

I think Linas your comment deserves some analysis 😁. Range Rover the original SUV? has been around since 1948 creating or reacting to demand? And if its demand creation and anti-social as you say, then you are saying manufacturers are anti-social, do you have left-leaning tendencies? Generally speaking if a thing is bigger it consumes more material, energy, labour etc., so hard to see how it costs the same? And do they really have a higher margin or in fact a margin at all since it's not a given that all cars sell at a profit.? I give way on parking spaces since all cars have got much bigger over the years, witness the mini, space has not increased in line. Finally Linas I worry about your line "I just hate SUV's" this is a very strong emotional response to what is just a car after all, have you considered counselling before it turns to violence,? The suggestion of taxation is already showing an early vindictive streak🤔😂

Long past it mate... last person who tried to counsel me on SUVs got hurt! 😁

There is distinction between SUVs and Off-road Utilitarian Vehicles... I have no issues with later. If you drive in the middle of nowhere and you need to wade rivers and climb rocks to get home - have an off-roader no issue with that. You want it to be luxurious, so that once you eventually get onto motorway is not entirely terrible to drive at speed over 50MPH. Fine. That is where Range Rover (in 1969 actually) comes in - capable off-road vehicle and not entirely sucks on road, apart of being awful for fuel economy and wobbly around the corners making everyone inside sick on anything but straight road. If one lives in the sticks - that is fair compromise to make. As well note - it was specifically designed for off-road and was not intended to be luxurious at all... just barely not entirely suck!

It is considered that first which was specifically designed as such is 1984 Jeep Cherokee XJ. What separates it from say Classic Range Rover... Range Rover is body on frame design with ladder chassis, SUVs are considered the off-road vehicle with Unibody construction. Meaning they are no as capable on the road and not as rugged.

Now regarding "bigger things cost more"... yes generally that is true... except what makes most cost in cars are individual components fitted on the frame i.e. engines, electronics, sensors etc. Whenever to set-up the line which stamps the coupe body, or set-up a line which stamps SUV body costs the same. The extra metal which needs to go into SUV when line is set-up is cheap as well. Last time I have checked 1-ton of machined steel was like £400. So if SUV has 250kg extra steel in it's structure... this is £100 worth of price difference. Yet similarly spec'ed SUV could be as much as 25% more expensive as similar car i.e. £45k vs £60k. So would SUV cost more to produce than car... yes... marginally, but it is priced significantly higher. 

I think to close that - first of all crossovers have no off-road advantages over similar cars... For example Yaris Cross would be identically capable off-road as Yaris (and that is not capable at all). Secondly, most of buyers for these cars lives in the cities and never drives off-road anyway - so why own SUV? 

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12 minutes ago, Karlbar2k said:

don't think fiat 500 is the best example you could have used 😄

original 500 was a great little car

relaunch 500 was a great "small" car

500L is a great little no wait, small no wait medi??? no wait scrap that bigger than an RX450

Fiat making 500L is just cashing in on the trend... that however doesn't mean Fiat 500 isn't a successful car in it's own right. As well you are free to give a better example if you think mine is bad 🙂 

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3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I actually don't buy this claim i.e. "that they are reacting to demand". I think it is exactly manufacturers to blame that they marketed SUVs... if they would have marketed something else people will want something else. 

Take for example Fiat500 - it is not SUV, but Fiat did a lot of job in marketing it and it is selling like hot cake relatively speaking. The truth behind why car manufacturers wants to sell more SUVs is that SUV cost no more to make than coupe or saloon, but generally by being bigger can be priced higher. Simply said SUV has higher profit margin. 

It is little bit far fetched, but it is manufacturers (or some manufacturers) who are pushing SUVs and thus are marketing them for last 2 decades. Therefore after 2 decades of brainwashing now people actually prefers SUVs.

As for parking spaces - they don't fit because majority of parking spaces does not meet requirements. It is considered that parking space should be at minimum 2.4 x 4.8 metres. It is almost never 2.4 metres wide not to mention UK standard is already one of the smallest in the world. In US you can park car sideways into parking space and still have some space to spare 😄 (although that is probably the only positive thing about US).

Finally, I am with you when it comes to "normal cars" - I just hate SUVs and it is sad that normal cars are disappearing, I consider that SUVs are overall almost "anti-social". Indeed with majority of cars nowadays being SUVs you simply could not see anything in front of you... and that has domino effect. People want to see where the yare driving and thus they are getting SUVs as well. For this reason I would support additional "SUV tax", rather than considering it "normal" car. 

I am more than happy to report that perhaps for the first time I agree with the sentiments expressed by both Shahpor AND  Linas.

 

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11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Fiat making 500L is just cashing in on the trend... that however doesn't mean Fiat 500 isn't a successful car in it's own right. As well you are free to give a better example if you think mine is bad 🙂 

sadly all cars have gotten bigger over time.  new polo is bigger than mk1 golf, Weirdly the one car I have had that seems to have stayed the same size over 4 versions is the Lexus RX (not counting the 450h L as thats added 2 seats)

if cars had remained at the same size but carried on developing, then a new golf would be capable of over 100MPG now and that wouldnt have suited certain large corporations 😄

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38 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

I think Linas your comment deserves some analysis 😁. Range Rover the original SUV? has been around since 1948 creating or reacting to demand? And if its demand creation and anti-social as you say, then you are saying manufacturers are anti-social, do you have left-leaning tendencies? Generally speaking if a thing is bigger it consumes more material, energy, labour etc., so hard to see how it costs the same? And do they really have a higher margin or in fact a margin at all since it's not a given that all cars sell at a profit.? I give way on parking spaces since all cars have got much bigger over the years, witness the mini, space has not increased in line. Finally Linas I worry about your line "I just hate SUV's" this is a very strong emotional response to what is just a car after all, have you considered counselling before it turns to violence,? The suggestion of taxation is already showing an early vindictive streak🤔😂

Phil, I for one do not think that Linas` contribution requires any analysis.

You are once again seeking to occupy a position somewhere between Academia and Greece. Stop analysing and for once in  a while give us your declared position on the subject in question.

Yours lovingly, Roy.🤣

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6 minutes ago, Karlbar2k said:

sadly all cars have gotten bigger over time.  new polo is bigger than mk1 golf, Weirdly the one car I have had that seems to have stayed the same size over 4 versions is the Lexus RX (not counting the 450h L as thats added 2 seats)

if cars had remained at the same size but carried on developing, then a new golf would be capable of over 100MPG now and that wouldnt have suited certain large corporations 😄

This is true, but I don't see the link between cars getting bigger and people driving SUVs... big part of the trend of cars getting bigger are safety regulations, crumple zones etc. 

For example it's true that current BMW 3 series is bigger than BMW 5 series from early 90's, but that is why if you want spiritual successor for BMW E30 M3, you get BMW M2. If you want Golf GTI mk1 you get Polo/Lupo/Up GTI. Up even comes with that tartar/half-leather interior as an homage to original Golf GTI.

4 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

position somewhere between Academia and Greece

This one is epic... really made me laugh! 

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4 hours ago, Shahpor said:

What is wrong with people today 🙄

As someone who prefers saloon and hatchback cars, I can't understand the desire from people for tall, bigger cars.  I don't blame the manufacturers since they are only reacting to demand, but it is a shame that 'normal' cars are disappearing fast.

No offense intended, but the size of RX's, BMW X5's and Audi Q5's are bordering on the ridiculous now and there is just no need for such a large car.

 

saloons are disappearing like melting snow and car manufacturers are turning into suv/crossover companies. Just look at Lexus..

lx/gx/rx/nx/ux.  soon lf1/lfz/lf-sa ( thats the yaris based one).  Thats where the demand and money is

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Agree with you Bernard,Ford have actually stopped making the mondeo,in the not too distant future 80/90% of new cars on the road will be suv's,mpv's,crossovers and offroaders and very few normal cars(salons and hatchbacks) for people like us lol 😆 

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I guess in some way that makes sense - because we cannot enjoy our cars anymore (goverment does everything in their power to ruin it), then it no longer matters how car actually drives or how it looks. The only remaining criteria becomes "to be mediocre/universal from all aspects"... that is what cross-overs are doing - they sort of wants to be coupe and sport, sort of wants to be practical, sort of wants to be economical, sort of want's to go off-road... but in reality they just suck at everything. But that doesn't really matter anymore, because soon we will only be allowed to drive once in a week at most... so what is the difference of how your shopping trolley looks like, or how it handles? 

This as well coincides with increase of the drivers who don't really know if they want to drive at all or don't they... and obviously in rapid decrease in true motoring enthusiasts.

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51 minutes ago, Karlbar2k said:

sadly all cars have gotten bigger over time.  new polo is bigger than mk1 golf, Weirdly the one car I have had that seems to have stayed the same size over 4 versions is the Lexus RX (not counting the 450h L as thats added 2 seats)

 

Most certainly cars have increased in size, equivalent model for model but even the 4th Generation RX has a larger footprint than previous models if not quite so tall, so even the RX is not an exception.

It would be interesting to know why people opt for SUV's, just about all of which don't look as good or handle as well as saloons and coupes. My excuse for making the change was because I found it difficult to get in and out of a saloon and found the RX more comfortable on my arthritic back.  Some feel they are safer in a larger, heavier vehicle.  There is some truth in this. Yet notwithstanding being less economical and being subjected to derogatory comments like "Chelsea tractors", SUV's have become increasingly popular.  Maybe it's just become fashionable.  It's much easier for manufacturers to respond to a demand than to create one.  They have also collected a lot of what otherwise might have been MPV buyers, causing contraction in the market for MVP's.

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5 hours ago, Shahpor said:

As someone who prefers saloon and hatchback cars, I can't understand the desire from people for tall, bigger cars. 

People like me, who have back injuries or other ailments or joint problems that make getting in and out of saloon cars difficult, find it far, far easier in an SUV-type car.

Usually more luggage space in an SUV and the tailgate opens wider than a boot, allowing easier loading.

Higher seating position allows for better view.

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17 minutes ago, Herbie said:

People like me, who have back injuries or other ailments or joint problems that make getting in and out of saloon cars difficult, find it far, far easier in an SUV-type car.

Usually more luggage space in an SUV and the tailgate opens wider than a boot, allowing easier loading.

Higher seating position allows for better view.

only ended up going SUV route after wifes back got that bad she cant get into a low car anymore, and im not talking mcclaren low either even the Octavia scout didnt help

we did try small upright cars so looked at things like Meriva etc and then settled on and had an Audi A2 for a few years but biggest issue was no Auto box which LED to the line of RXs we have had for her since.  

also we are now looking at caravan so the weight and size matters  more.  But I do understand that a lot of SUVs are just Chelsea tractors 😄

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5 hours ago, Shahpor said:

What is wrong with people today 🙄

As someone who prefers saloon and hatchback cars, I can't understand the desire from people for tall, bigger cars.  I don't blame the manufacturers since they are only reacting to demand, but it is a shame that 'normal' cars are disappearing fast.

No offense intended, but the size of RX's, BMW X5's and Audi Q5's are bordering on the ridiculous now and there is just no need for such a large car.

The old highway code used to say to look through the car in front to see any potential hazards before they are too close, but that is not possible in my GS now.  Not to mention the parking problem as they are sometimes too big to fit in a single bay.

Back on topic, this stems from the article claiming that this new car is to be considered 'tiny', which demonstrates the sad stat of affairs.

I really do agree with your "what's wrong with people today"? Especially when it comes to a lack of tolerance of other people's, views, opinions choices and a general live and let live approach to life. I see this increasingly in all aspects of life today, this inexorable drive towards a homegeneous existence where everyone has to conform no individuality allowed. It's a poor prognosis. 

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1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

saloons are disappearing like melting snow and car manufacturers are turning into suv/crossover companies. Just look at Lexus..

lx/gx/rx/nx/ux.  soon lf1/lfz/lf-sa ( thats the yaris based one).  Thats where the demand and money is

So what possible difference does it make? Did the designer of the carriage have complaints of "what's wrong with just a horse"? 😅

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I don't think anyone needs justification why they getting SUVs, but let's face it - majority of people don't have back injuries. These cross-overs are being marketed to young people - they don't have back injuries... Luggage space is larger on SUVs... guess what - UX has none... it is far worse than my RC which is considered poor in terms of luggage capacity, so it is not luggage either.

As for "higher seating positions allows for better view"... yes absolutely, because nowadays you have to sit higher, because everyone are in bloody SUVs... I can't go as far as saying it is selfish, but it is self-fulfilling. The more people buy SUVs, the more difficult it becomes for everyone else around to see, resulting in more people getting SUVs. It is like somebody standing-up in the concert "to see better"... guess what the guy behind him has to stand-up now... and soon we have everyone standing... So it is not a zero-sum game - for you to see more... I have to see less.

And all this has nothing to do with tolerance, if we all could have the cars we like that is all good, but studently people like me who want "normal" car have nothing to choose. So it is not lack of tolerance - I am just upset that cars I like are not getting made anymore and then it is being blamed back onto "us" (car buyers) - apparently that is because we want SUVs. Not it is not the case - they (car companies) only make and market SUVs, so we can only buy SUVs... if they would make and market more other cars, we would buy more other cars.

And I appreciate that with age and family SUV may be practical car... but before it was like you get hatchback when you are teenager, you go into coupe when you get to your 20's, then you go into estate or off-roader, when you get family... and when you get to middle-age crisis you get 911 (coupe again)... and when you past it then you get yourself large saloon.

Now people go like - small SUV, slightly bigger SUV, mid-size SUV, sports SUV, luxury SUV... just depressing!

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2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

Phil, I for one do not think that Linas` contribution requires any analysis.

You are once again seeking to occupy a position somewhere between Academia and Greece. Stop analysing and for once in  a while give us your declared position on the subject in question.

Yours lovingly, Roy.🤣

Well you place me John in something of a conundrum 🤔. As you know the word Academia is in itself from the Greek, essentially meaning theoretical with no practical purpose in mind therefore no decision required or needed. Yet you challenge me to make such a decision, just what is a fellow to do 😱

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42 minutes ago, Barry14UK said:

Most certainly cars have increased in size, equivalent model for model but even the 4th Generation RX has a larger footprint than previous models if not quite so tall, so even the RX is not an exception.

It would be interesting to know why people opt for SUV's, just about all of which don't look as good or handle as well as saloons and coupes. My excuse for making the change was because I found it difficult to get in and out of a saloon and found the RX more comfortable on my arthritic back.  Some feel they are safer in a larger, heavier vehicle.  There is some truth in this. Yet notwithstanding being less economical and being subjected to derogatory comments like "Chelsea tractors", SUV's have become increasingly popular.  Maybe it's just become fashionable.  It's much easier for manufacturers to respond to a demand than to create one.  They have also collected a lot of what otherwise might have been MPV buyers, causing contraction in the market for MVP's.

The mrs opted for an SUV for these reasons. Easy to get in and out, better driving position on the road, more space for the family and because she wanted one. There are a lot of people that like SUV's. I guess it's personal choice.

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