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Steve

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The European Honda Accord is sold as an Acura TSX in the US. Acura IS a direct competotor to Lexus, and consequently the Accord IS actually a worthy comparison to a Lexus IS. I own a new Accord and it's build quality, ride & handling is much better than it's 'competitors' such as the Mazda 6, Mondeo and 407 etc... In anycase, the IS200 is a Toyota Altezza!!! :P

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Just a few coments.

Residual values.

Okay they have slipped a little in the last 12 months due to the new model, but that's life. However, for most of it's life the IS has had better residuals than any of its competitors and by some margin. Don't forget, when residuals are calculated, they are based against the cars new list price for that model, and don't include all the extras that you add on. Adding £3k's worth of extras won't make it worth any more when you come to sell it, therfore the 3 series or C lass or whatever is worth less in percentage terms than the percentage guide figures suggest, and even they are lower than the IS.

As for Honda as a direct competitor, I'm sure they think so too. Best to compare it once the new IS is out, then we'll see I guess...

Model line up - comparing one manufacturer against another using how many drivatives they have a factor is only valid if you are trying to compete on volume and therefore profitaiblity. Lexus are not chasing volume like the Germans - Toyota does that for them and wins hand down, end of story. A competitor is judged using factors of quality, performance, ride, smoothness, refinement, quietness, engineering, technology etc.

In the end, the price is the price, Lexus have built and designed a fabulous new car which peolple will either buy and enjoy or they won't. No amount of discussion will change colours, specs or prices. So far, everyone I have spoken to has confirmed their order and are looking forward to their new car.

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Just a few coments.

Residual values.

Okay they have slipped a little in the last 12 months due to the new model, but that's life. However, for most of it's life the IS has had better residuals than any of its competitors and by some margin. Don't forget, when residuals are calculated, they are based against the cars new list price for that model, and don't include all the extras that you add on. Adding £3k's worth of extras won't make it worth any more when you come to sell it, therfore  the 3 series or C lass or whatever is worth less in percentage terms than the percentage guide figures suggest, and even they are lower than the IS.

As for Honda as a direct competitor, I'm sure they think so too. Best to compare it once the new IS is out, then we'll see I guess...

Model line up - comparing one manufacturer against another using how many drivatives they have a factor is only valid if you are trying to compete on volume and therefore profitaiblity. Lexus are not chasing volume like the Germans - Toyota does that for them and wins hand down, end of story. A competitor is judged using factors of quality, performance, ride, smoothness, refinement, quietness, engineering, technology etc.

In the end, the price is the price, Lexus have built and designed a fabulous new car which peolple will either buy and enjoy or they won't. No amount of discussion will change colours, specs or prices. So far, everyone I have spoken to has confirmed their order and are looking forward to their new car.

You do sound like a saleman who has just walked out of the briefing for the new IS250 :) .

Sadly no amount of spin will get me to buy a new IS250 or any other Lexus Brand

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I believe in the product, simple as that.

Having worked for other 'luxuary' brands in the past, I am in the privileged position to make direct comparisons between them, not just at face value, but all the behind the scenes info that only we get to see.

Out of all the different brands I have worked with, Lexus is the only one I'd recommend to a family member.

I'm not here to try and pursuade people to buy another Lexus, but often you see people who miss the point, or fail to see the bigger picture, where an insiders view point might bring a little clarity?

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No amount of discussion will change colours, specs or prices.

So, what you are saying is that Lexus do not listen to their customers? My ***, they really do think they are BMW then!

Well, lets just wait and see how "well" they manage to shift the IS - as by the sounds of it, there won't be many on this forum parting with their cash for it.

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We also now that Lexus has an IS coupe/convertible on the way. :whistling:

I think that puts them right in the mix :winky:

Parthiban are you sure about the IS coupe/convertible. I would wait for one of these but so far I've heard nothing about it except for a picture in Autoexpress but it looked "fake".

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Oh no, they're MUCH better than BMW..... and still cheaper spec for spec!

How do they do it?

Maybe many on this forum won't decide to buy one, but in a year or so they will be available used at a lower price.

We have sold all but a few of this year's allocation so far and the car hasn't even been launched! - Hope we don't get a waiting list too long!

One of the things nice about supplying Lexus is that normally customers aren't asked to wait for their new cars, but hey, if demand exceeds supply I guess we'll just have to manage as best we can. Most customers understand when a new model is launched. We shall see.

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I think one of the problems with the current IS model is that it doesn't appear on many company car lists and that's because there wasn't a diesel available. And that is probably (my thinking) into the reason why... and I quote my dealers words "yes sir we have the model available at the docks - give us 2 weeks), because not a lot of people have bought them. Which in hinesight is good to me!

To be honest at £25k for an IS250 it probably will be competitively priced but the guys on this forum are mainly buyers and not company drivers. Even my car allowance wont justify that sort of cash. But I can't wait that long so I'll have to jump ship I think.

If company car drivers are offered the new IS220d then they will become common and Mr Mole will be more than happy with his commision, enough spends for Barbados instead of Benidorm I think!

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Can you imagine walking into Pizzahut and being told "If you want tomato, you can't have onion, and tomota only comes with peppers, so you'll need to buy tomato and peppers" - Well, that is exactly what Lexus are doing with the new IS!

That, everyone, is where BMW and Audi win hands down - you can get what you want on every model - you can have your tomato and onions!

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Ah, yes...

HOWEVER.....

What if it was a tastier pizza, served on a nice plate, by friendly staff, in a nice restaurant with ample parking facilities and that whatever combo is on offer it is still cheaper than the one served next door with only half the ingrediants, seved in a soggy box by an arrogant waiter?

Cars are not at the docks waiting, petrol or otherwise - they are still testing the deisel! Your dealer is not correct.

As for the current model, production stopped months ago, and last time I looked on the computer, there were only a few left in a few showrooms. We sold our last one weeks ago.

Lexus manage supply into the UK very carefully - always just enough to satisfy the demand so customers aren't asked to wait, but never too many so that heavy discounting is needed to clear them - and please tell me that we all know that discounting just makes the car depreciate faster so that you don't gain in the end - see Jaguar for a good example.

As you say, the IS200 is not a friendly car for company car tax and therfore most of the cars on the road are indeed privately owned, which to be honest for many dealers is a blessing in disguise - it can be VERY frustrating to offer someone the full treatment, demonstrations, test drives, quotes, hours of your time for them to go to and buy from a leasing company..... ask the leasing company for a test drive? Rocky ground here I know, and ground without an easy solution, so lets save it for another day - just our side of the fence?

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Anyone see this? http://www.thenewis.com/

Official IS website (for the US)

Gives you a exterior & interior colour configurator. US colours are the same as UK colours, just named differently.

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It seems as if Lexus is quite deliberately targeting a different kind of customer with the new IS. As a current BMW 3-Series owner migrating to Lexus, I believe Lexus is doing all the right things to attract people like me. In particular, the greatest appeal of the new car is its styling, which is so much more distinctive than Chris Bangle's efforts. (I’ve heard a rumour that gifted Italian stylist Leonardo Fioravanti is the designer behind Lexus’ new L-Finesse design language. It may be just a co-incidence that L and F are Leonardo Fioravanti’s initials.) Whatever, I thought the design of the E90 3-Series really was the last straw; BMW just didn’t listen to its customers.

The volume seller for BMW is the 320 diesel with a manual transmission. The IS 220d will be extremely competitive with this model from launch. Add Lexus' reputation for build quality, reliability and dealer service and you have the ingredients of a true competitor. I have no doubt that more options that widen its appeal will be offered on the new IS as it grows in popularity. In fact, I'm pretty confident that a more focused high-performance model will also make an appearance too. As Top Gear magazine says, the IS will be the car that really does it for Lexus.

You might ask why current 3-Series owners like me rejected the Lexus IS first time round. The answer is that instead of being distinctive in its own right, it seemed too much like a blatant rip-off of the 3-Series. Much of the interior detailing was too fussy and the ergonomics didn't appeal as much. There were also a variety of other features that polarised opinion, like the dashboard gauges. Some people loved them. I thought they were kitsch in the extreme lacking the subtlety of classic German design.

Consequently, the old IS may have had too narrow an appeal; (it seems to be driven almost exclusively by pilots and IT personnel - which probably tells you something, although I don’t know what)! Because the new model is such a departure in so many areas, many existing IS owners seem to feel alienated by the new model. Maybe they'll come round to it when the market roundly applauds its quality and dynamics.

Actually, I think the real loser with the new IS is not BMW, even though the new IS is bound to steal sales from the 3-Series. No, it is Audi that will lose out the most. I had initially considered an A4 instead of the 3-Series. But the face-lifted B8 version of the A4 released last year isn't much of an improvement in my book; it only corrects deficiencies that should never have existed in the first place. Moreover, Audi's are essentially built on a front-wheel drive chassis with dynamics compromised by poor weight distribution, ponderous nose-heavy under-steer and poor steering feel. The biggest problem is still Audi's traditional Achilles heel: electronics.

As I think I've said elsewhere, the Germans are all going for volume. As they do so they do not appear to be able to maintain quality levels. In this category of car, you really do have to get the basics right: handling, build quality, reliability, comfort and so on. The Germans are increasingly failing to do this. So in one sense, people are considering Lexus for the first time, not only because it has improved product quality; but because the Germans have dropped the ball.

For me the final nail in the coffin of German ownership is sales volume. There are just way too many BMW’s on the road. They have lost the cachet they once had. Lexus' ambitious targets are a drop in the ocean compared to the German brands’ sales figures. Smaller volumes don’t only mean greater exclusivity; they mean less chance of building it wrong.

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In fact, I'm pretty confident that a more focused high-performance model will also make an appearance too. As Top Gear magazine says, the IS will be the car that really does it for Lexus.

Well if Lexus confirmed that an IS350 will come to the UK, I'd pay a deposit now! Might even tempt me away from the mythical GS450h :shifty:

The biggest problem is still Audi's traditional Achilles heel: electronics.

Audi's biggest problem is the bunch of criminal scum who call themselves Audi Dealers (1st hand experience I'm afraid).

For me the final nail in the coffin of German ownership is sales volume. There are just way too many BMW’s on the road. They have lost the cachet they once had.

As they say, in the UK for every new car (SC, LS, RX, GS or IS) that Lexus sells, BMW sells thirty four 3-Series alone!

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Two Sides to Every Story

Side One

I, too, thought that the 'indicative' prices for the IS250 where high and came away from the dealer feeling somewhat disappointed. I was shown the new GS300 and told that the IS would not be very different. I then asked myself, "Why buy an IS when for a couple of K more, I could have a GS"? I also 'Built a BMW' on the web and the 325 with all the extras was close on the Lexus SE-L price - shouldn't Lexus be trying to undercut rather than equal?

My first IS200 cost me 22K in 1999 and I was expecting some inflation hike, but is 24.6K for the SE with slightly less equipment reasonable? Like many others, I respected Lexus for their simplicity in having a very short extras list (satnav). The new line-up, not only adds another spec into the range (SE-L), but has complicated the extras debate. To get Bluetooth I have to have satnav. To have satnav, I have to have the super Hi Fi. This deal then gives me a reversing camera (whether I want it or not). ...and of course the sunroof is now an extra.

Side Two

I have thought long and hard and I have read the comments from this thread. I have contemplated the reasons that Lexus may have for pricing accordingly and I have come to the conclusion that Lexus is endeavouring to raise the anti with this model and probably bring it more into line with the other models in their prestige range.

I am sure that Lexus (aka Toyota) has employed, at vast expense, marketing companies to ascertain the optimum pitch for this model and have taken their advice.

Lexus does offer an excellent product and after sales service with their no quibble warranty claims and a friendly atmosphere whether you are at the dealerships for a full service or a touch-up pencil. The brand is prestigious and the reliability of the product is unprecedented

The Solution?

So, Lexus, how about this to please all the people all of the time.

1. Keep your prices at the set level to convey the exclusiveness of the marc.

2. Offer some good trade-in deals for existing Lexus owners (e.g. book + 2K) to ensure that the large following do not start looking elsewhere.

This would keep the residuals of the new and existing models at a high level but would give us loyal punters a good reason to stay with the brand.

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Only two responses...

1) Why should Lexus try to undercut? Surley the best product with the best service and the best reliability should be the most expensive?

However, the IS250 is less expensive than the same spec 325i at any trim level.

Remember - Lexus have not got where they are today by selling cheaper cars - they are growing faster than any other luxuary brand because they build the best cars and offer the best service.

2) By offering more than your car is worth to keep your business is commercially identical as offering a discount of the same amount, which is in turn saying that the car is not worth its asking price. Plus, what is a dealer supposed to do with a car that he has traded in at the price he should be selling it at? Sell it at no proffit?

Remember,

1) 2.5 litres costs more than 2.0 litres, as with EVERY other brand

2) Lexus build higher quality, more reliable cars than the Germans (J.D. Power)

3) Lexus offer better service (J.D.Power)

4) New IS is cheaper spec for spec. (Trust me it is, many hours research)

5) Deisel will restore the company car market and boost volume

Fortunately, current Lexus owners, and owners of other brands, are placing and confirming orders at a very encouraging rate, I just hope some of you will join them.

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I remain to be convinced about the pricing, certainly in comparison to the outgoing IS300 of similar spec. E.g.

IS300 £27,102 + Satnav £2,340 + Metallic paint £375 + parking sensors £210 = £30,027

(includes full leather, cruise, HID, sunroof, 5-spd auto)

IS250 SE-L £28,000 + Satnav £2,710 + Auto £1,000 + Sunroof £800 + Metallic £510 + Cruise £2,150 = £35,170

(includes HID, full leather, parking sensors)

The kicker seems to be that the base price is similar but you now pay extra for sunroof, auto box and cruise control. Sure the new IS has a few extra safety tricks up its sleeve, but do people really go out and buy a car on the basis of it having 10 airbags rather than 8 and a pre-crash sphincter-tightening system? :winky:

I'll probably trade up when the current car is 3yrs old, mainly because I DON'T want an Audi, BMW or Mercedes, but the extra £5K is a pain.

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IS300 £27,102 + Satnav £2,340 + Metallic paint £375 + parking sensors £210 = £30,027

(includes full leather, cruise, HID, sunroof, 5-spd auto)

IS250 SE-L £28,000 + Satnav £2,710 + Auto £1,000 + Sunroof £800 + Metallic £510 + Cruise £2,150 = £35,170

(includes HID, full leather, parking sensors)

Actually Cruise control is standard on all the new IS's. The cruise you are referring to is Adaptive Cruise Control, where it senses the speed of the car in front of you and slows down/speeds up as required.

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1) 2.5 litres costs more than 2.0 litres, as with EVERY other brand

ok......so as per my post on the other current topic for this, WHY is the new 250 £4-5k more than the current IS300????

i know i've looked at it purely on basics in my comparison, but i DO recognise that the 250 is a brand new model & more advanced etc, etc - i still can't justify that jump in price.

just as a side note, using terms like -

" Getting a bit tedious this whole debate isn't it?"

"This brief summary should help those still confused."

"...if you can't afford one, either wait until the used market developes or buy a cheaper car."

really gets my back up :angry: IMO, it comes across as sooooo damn condescending that i want to poke you in the eye with a sharp stick! everyone is entitled to their own opinion & our comments on prices etc are just as valid as your 'high & mighty' responses. please, have a little respect for other people...

Abbie

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On paper, the pricing of the IS250 does seem excessive compared to the previous IS. However, we should reserve judgement until we have seen the car in the flesh and driven it.

Even though I've placed a deposit on one and chosen the spec, I still have the right to change my mind once I've driven a demonstrator when it arrives in October at my local Lexus dealership. In the mean time, I will be testing other cars that the Lex is going head to head against, (a new 325/330 M Sport probably) so that I can make a fair comparison. If the Lex is pants, I will be getting my deposit back, but I honestly expect it will be a great drive.

Mr Mole => The debate in this forum is a perfectly valid one. So what if people have placed orders and finalised their specs. Like me, they have the right to change their mind after seeing a car in the flesh and test driving one. Only time will tell if this car is a success, not an order book of 'potential' customers.

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Actually Cruise control is standard on all the new IS's. The cruise you are referring to is Adaptive Cruise Control, where it senses the speed of the car in front of you and slows down/speeds up as required.

Good point - my mistake :blush: (In that case I can save myself a couple of grand) :D

Still comes out £3K extra for the equivalent IS250 vs. the IS300 tho. Would be interested to know what 'an encouraging rate' for pre-launch orders is? One thing the IS can do without IMHO is to become as ubiquitous as the 3-Series... they're everywhere! :sick:

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"really gets my back up IMO".......

Fair point, well made. Was written tongue in cheek, post edited, no offence.

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"really gets my back up  IMO".......

Fair point, well made. Was written tongue in cheek, post edited, no offence.

:D thankyou... if you are doing a bit of 'tongue in cheek', try using some of these :P :huh: :winky: gets the point across better without being too serious! :whistling::whistling::whistling:

now...what about my Q on the comparison with the 300? come back when you're not too busy selling all those new 250's eh?! :tomato:

Abbie

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I have to agree that the pricing of the new IS is much higher than expected.

I don't think the brand yet has the kudos of the Germans so needs to be careful what it charges. Charging too much too soon could could dampen the loyalty of its exising user base before new buyers fully accept it as a true alternative to the likes of BMW and Audi.

:tomato::tomato:

That said, I've seen this car in the flesh and at the time I thought it was a notch above the GS. And the GS is pretty special...

:zee: :zee:

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Erm....

The new IS250 isn't £3-4k more than the old IS300... It is if you load it up, but the SE with the auto box is pretty similar, with the exception of the HID lamps and the auto dimming mirrors, but the new car has lots in its favour too....

Both approx 200 bhp too....

With reference to keeping valued Lexus customers and not putting the price up too much, can I ask a genuine question?

Would a typical IS200 owner decide not to buy one, and instead buy a more expensive German car that they know is an inferior just to make a point?

And did the typical IS200 owner buy their car instead of a German brand just because it was less expensive?

Badge snobbery is an issue in Europe (not is the USA), but the tides are turning. You wouldn't believe the amount of times we here that people "wouldn't be seen dead in a BMW"

or, "Mercs are poor quality these days" or "yeah, but everyones got one of those"

Customers out there are much more aware than you might think, and Lexus' reputation of fine quality and service really is starting to draw customers from elsewhere, irrespective of price.

Best thing I can suggest is that whenever any of you are ready to change your car, have a go in the new IS250 then ask yourself the question, is the alternative better or worth more money? Only you can answer.

Also, how many of you would buy a less expensive 1.8 4 cyl version in a year or so.....? just curious ;)

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