Doctor, Doctor, Can I Have A Prescription?

[Mark D]

Doctor Bones,

Here are my geometry results from yesterday - should I be concerned about my caster which is over 7 degrees. Would this indicate a problem?

Last year when my geometry was done, the caster was 6deg19 - so is it a problem that is getting worse?

Thank you for any light you can shed on this.

[Tony-Bones]

Just explaind in full then pc 'crashed'........ now tempted to see how high i can kick it, i feel i will come back to the solution... :tsktsk:

[Tony-Bones]

'All better now'....

The Castor issue is not getting worse, it's just not getting addressed?

On the print it clearly shows the OSF Camber at 4' Positive, this is wrong.

Because it's 'in the green' i would seem to be ok to the opperator but this does display a lack of understanding.

Methode for Correction

As the OSF Camber is moved toward the Negative, the Toe will violently move Negative, as the Toe is corrected it will allow the wheel to rotate around the Kingpin and move back toward Negative :D

What has been missed is the fact that the Castor 'is' adjustable on the IS 'indirectly'.

If the company that set the geometry fail to understand the methode, they are welcome to contact me and i will explain it....... even talk them through it if needs be :winky:

[Mark D]

'All better now'....

The Castor issue is not getting worse, it's just not getting addressed?

On the print it clearly shows the OSF Camber at 4' Positive, this is wrong.

Because it's 'in the green' i would seem to be ok to the opperator but this does display a lack of understanding.

Methode for Correction

As the OSF Camber is moved toward the Negative, the Toe will violently move Negative, as the Toe is corrected it will allow the wheel to rotate around the Kingpin and move back toward Negative  :D

What has been missed is the fact that the Castor 'is' adjustable on the IS 'indirectly'.

If the company that set the geometry fail to understand the methode, they are welcome to contact me and i will explain it....... even talk them through it if needs be :winky:

←

Thank you very much.

I'll go back to them and show this information to them and let them know of your v.generous offer, hopefully I'll be able to get it fixed for free.

Out of interest, what are the implications of me not getting this corrected?

[Tony-Bones]

'All better now'....

The Castor issue is not getting worse, it's just not getting addressed?

On the print it clearly shows the OSF Camber at 4' Positive, this is wrong.

Because it's 'in the green' i would seem to be ok to the opperator but this does display a lack of understanding.

Methode for Correction

As the OSF Camber is moved toward the Negative, the Toe will violently move Negative, as the Toe is corrected it will allow the wheel to rotate around the Kingpin and move back toward Negative  :D

What has been missed is the fact that the Castor 'is' adjustable on the IS 'indirectly'.

If the company that set the geometry fail to understand the methode, they are welcome to contact me and i will explain it....... even talk them through it if needs be :winky:

←

Thank you very much.

I'll go back to them and show this information to them and let them know of your v.generous offer, hopefully I'll be able to get it fixed for free.

Out of interest, what are the implications of me not getting this corrected?

←

Good question:.....As things read the car will drift left, at high speed the steering will 'tremble' and feel 'worrid'

Left turn in will be light, right heavy.

Tyre wear will result from this set-up through the 'toe out on turns' ( Akerman ) theory......... long story?...... boring read!.. Facts are the geometry recovery was incomplete.... just get them to put things right!.....then display the results here

[Mark D]

Good question:.....As things read the car will drift left, at high speed the steering will 'tremble' and feel 'worrid'

Left turn in will be light, right heavy.

Tyre wear will result from this set-up through the 'toe out on turns' ( Akerman ) theory......... long story?...... boring read!.. Facts are the geometry recovery was incomplete.... just get them to put things right!.....then display the results here 

←

I did notice when driving that the car had a slight left pull, I wasn't sure if it was geometry or just the road camber - but now I am wiser.

I'll be back down to them this weekend, and I'll let you know how I get on - hopefully including a new print out with all boxes green

Thank you ever so much kind Sir.

[Tony-Bones]

Good question:.....As things read the car will drift left, at high speed the steering will 'tremble' and feel 'worrid'

Left turn in will be light, right heavy.

Tyre wear will result from this set-up through the 'toe out on turns' ( Akerman ) theory......... long story?...... boring read!.. Facts are the geometry recovery was incomplete.... just get them to put things right!.....then display the results here 

←

I did notice when driving that the car had a slight left pull, I wasn't sure if it was geometry or just the road camber - but now I am wiser.

I'll be back down to them this weekend, and I'll let you know how I get on - hopefully including a new print out with all boxes green

Thank you ever so much kind Sir.

←

Expect nothing more!.... the geometry was not complete, as indicated and explaind all should become matter of fact!....i will/ follow/ support/ explain any area to you or for them here/ pm/ email/ work # or home# to resolve this simple geometricall problem.......

[Mark D]

Expect nothing more!.... the geometry was not complete, as indicated and explaind all should become matter of fact!....i will/ follow/ support/ explain any area to you or for them here/ pm/ email/ work # or home# to resolve this simple geometricall problem.......

←

Pride is a terrible thing!

I went back to the Tyre Centre today to ask about getting the geometry corrected.

The guy told me it was not possible to adjust the caster on the IS.

I told him it was, indirectly by adjusting the Toe and camber

He told me it might change it a bit, but not significantly enough to bring it with in the green limits. "I guarentee it"

I explained your offer to talk him through it

He declined "that won't be neccessary"

I asked him if he knew Ackermans theory

He said no - with a blank look on his face

I asked if he would try adjusting the camber to see if it works

He agreed, but again guaranteed it wouldn't fix it. "we adjust cars here every day etc"

With him being unwilling to talk to you in case you show up the fact that he can't do his job right - what information should I arm myself with when I go down again.

I don't mind reading up on some theory, if needs be, to talk to him (or his boss).

Thanks again for your help.

[Tony-Bones]

Expect nothing more!.... the geometry was not complete, as indicated and explaind all should become matter of fact!....i will/ follow/ support/ explain any area to you or for them here/ pm/ email/ work # or home# to resolve this simple geometricall problem.......

←

Pride is a terrible thing!

I went back to the Tyre Centre today to ask about getting the geometry corrected.

The guy told me it was not possible to adjust the caster on the IS.

I told him it was, indirectly by adjusting the Toe and camber

He told me it might change it a bit, but not significantly enough to bring it with in the green limits. "I guarentee it"

I explained your offer to talk him through it

He declined "that won't be neccessary"

I asked him if he knew Ackermans theory

He said no - with a blank look on his face

I asked if he would try adjusting the camber to see if it works

He agreed, but again guaranteed it wouldn't fix it. "we adjust cars here every day etc"

With him being unwilling to talk to you in case you show up the fact that he can't do his job right - what information should I arm myself with when I go down again.

I don't mind reading up on some theory, if needs be, to talk to him (or his boss).

Thanks again for your help.

←

' :tsktsk: cheeky s*d!!... i feel really sorry for you!.. how dare they 'belittle you like this :tsktsk:

View this!..... on your print does the nsf camber read -37'.. does the osf read +4'... it does!..... both are 'in the green' but the osf camber position is 'Wrong'.

The reason for the 'Advanced' Castor position is 'Absolutely' due to that + camber position!

Of all the 110 or so IS 200's and 300's i have set from LOC alone nearly everyone needed the Castor to be re-set ( indirectly ) 'Don't' just believe me.... 'ask' the members!.......'members' tell him!.

For your 'Armour!' one simple law with geometry is the final result.... albeit good or bad there is an absolute need for 'symmetry', 'Tell' them to explain why your front camber angles are / / ? ...... insist that they move the osf camber to 37'- and do you have an 'email address'..... i feel they need 'Education' :winky:

Edited October 22, 2005 by ColinBarber

[Mark D]

'F**king cheeky s*d!!... i feel really sorry for you!.. how dare they 'belittle you like this :tsktsk:

View this!..... on your print does the nsf camber read -37'.. does the osf read +4'... it does!..... both are 'in the green' but the osf camber position is 'Wrong'.

The reason for the 'Advanced' Castor position is 'Absolutely' due to that + camber position!

Of all the 110 or so IS 200's and 300's i have set from LOC alone nearly everyone needed the Castor to be re-set ( indirectly ) 'Don't' just believe me.... 'ask' the members!.......'members' tell him!.

For your 'Armour!' one simple law with geometry is the final result.... albeit good or bad there is an absolute need for 'symmetry', 'Tell' them to explain why your front camber angles are /  /  ? ...... insist that they move the osf camber to 37'- and do you have an 'email address'..... i feel they need 'Education' :winky:

←

I don't feel belittled, because I was able to sit there and tell him that he had not done the job right - knowing that it was down to his ignorance.

I feel pity for him, for not being able to take the opportunity to develop his knowledge and understanding of his job - just so he wouldn't look bad.

I've checked them out and can't find an email address - but I like your style :)

Symmetry - so simple and obvious - yet overlooked by some one who does this 'everyday'

I'm sooooo looking forward to reminding him about his "guarantee" that the caster won't be affected by the camber.

Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you!

[Tony-Bones]

'F**king cheeky s*d!!... i feel really sorry for you!.. how dare they 'belittle you like this :tsktsk:

View this!..... on your print does the nsf camber read -37'.. does the osf read +4'... it does!..... both are 'in the green' but the osf camber position is 'Wrong'.

The reason for the 'Advanced' Castor position is 'Absolutely' due to that + camber position!

Of all the 110 or so IS 200's and 300's i have set from LOC alone nearly everyone needed the Castor to be re-set ( indirectly ) 'Don't' just believe me.... 'ask' the members!.......'members' tell him!.

For your 'Armour!' one simple law with geometry is the final result.... albeit good or bad there is an absolute need for 'symmetry', 'Tell' them to explain why your front camber angles are /  /  ? ...... insist that they move the osf camber to 37'- and do you have an 'email address'..... i feel they need 'Education' :winky:

←

I don't feel belittled, because I was able to sit there and tell him that he had not done the job right - knowing that it was down to his ignorance.

I feel pity for him, for not being able to take the opportunity to develop his knowledge and understanding of his job - just so he wouldn't look bad.

I've checked them out and can't find an email address - but I like your style :)

Symmetry - so simple and obvious - yet overlooked by some one who does this 'everyday'

I'm sooooo looking forward to reminding him about his "guarantee" that the caster won't be affected by the camber.

Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you!

←

You are welcome!... don't forget 'Geometry' is all i do and know, some 25yrs at it and i still have a lot to learn...... the possibilities are endless and so is the lack of understanding within the industry, i feel real concern for people like you that need to seek help after repairs are done by a so called 'expert', which you paid for and now dispute the outcome.

Feeling worried about your situation i need to 'up-date' your armour

When the camber is lowered to 37'- the 'toe' will rotate 'negative' by about 10/ 15mm, it's the recovery of the 'toe' that allows the wheel to rotate around the 'kingpin' and move the castor... 'But'

They must do another castor swing!....

'what's this'

The geometry is 3D so the method involved captures certain angles with the front wheels on a lock.... after any adjustment there 'will' be a need to re-capture the new positions, this is done by the 'castor swing'.

If the new print shows the camber in its new position but 'NO' movement in the castor i would be because they didn't do another 'swing'!

Does anyone here have one of my printouts you can display!

[Mark D]

You are welcome!... don't forget 'Geometry' is all i do and know, some 25yrs at it  and i still have a lot to learn...... the possibilities are endless and so is the lack of understanding within the industry, i feel real concern for people like you that need to seek help after repairs are done by a so called 'expert', which you paid for and now dispute the outcome.

Feeling worried about your situation i need to 'up-date' your armour 

When the camber is lowered to 37'- the 'toe' will rotate 'negative' by about 10/ 15mm, it's the recovery of the 'toe' that allows the wheel to rotate around the 'kingpin' and move the castor... 'But'

They must do another castor swing!.... 

'what's this'

The geometry is 3D so the method involved captures certain angles with the front wheels on a lock.... after any adjustment there 'will' be a need to re-capture the new positions, this is done by the 'castor swing'.

If the new print shows the camber in its new position but 'NO' movement in the castor i would be because they didn't do another 'swing'!

Does anyone here have one of my printouts you can display!

←

I'm starting to feel bulletproof now :)

Is a 'caster swing' a basic alignment term they are likley to be familiar with?

I think I understand why it will fix it now - which should help when I'm 'discussing' the matter.

Does this sound right?

As the camber is adjusted towards the negative, the wheel will 'toe out' - then the toe is pulled in by rotaing the wheel around the kingpin which moves the wheel forward and brings the Caster in to spec l

[Mark D]

I think when this is resolved, I'll have to write a little letter to the head office detailing the situation - and include a link to the wheels-inmotion website for reference material when they realise they need to retrain.

[Tony-Bones]

You are welcome!... don't forget 'Geometry' is all i do and know, some 25yrs at it  and i still have a lot to learn...... the possibilities are endless and so is the lack of understanding within the industry, i feel real concern for people like you that need to seek help after repairs are done by a so called 'expert', which you paid for and now dispute the outcome.

Feeling worried about your situation i need to 'up-date' your armour 

When the camber is lowered to 37'- the 'toe' will rotate 'negative' by about 10/ 15mm, it's the recovery of the 'toe' that allows the wheel to rotate around the 'kingpin' and move the castor... 'But'

They must do another castor swing!.... 

'what's this'

The geometry is 3D so the method involved captures certain angles with the front wheels on a lock.... after any adjustment there 'will' be a need to re-capture the new positions, this is done by the 'castor swing'.

If the new print shows the camber in its new position but 'NO' movement in the castor i would be because they didn't do another 'swing'!

Does anyone here have one of my printouts you can display!

←

I'm starting to feel bulletproof now :)

Is a 'caster swing' a basic alignment term they are likley to be familiar with?

I think I understand why it will fix it now - which should help when I'm 'discussing' the matter.

Does this sound right?

As the camber is adjusted towards the negative, the wheel will 'toe out' - then the toe is pulled in by rotaing the wheel around the kingpin which moves the wheel forward and brings the Caster in to spec l

←

Almost!

When the toe is recovered the wheel will pivot 'backwards' this will reduce the castor, this is your current problem....... imagine castor as the first part of a 'walking step?'.. the extension of the step needs to be expected and reliable...this forward extension 'geometrically' is termed as 'positive' it would be expected the next part of the step ( partner ) to extend and offer equal forward movement if not then the position will be negative relative to the first steps position......i think

The term 'Swing' I'm sure must differ from company to company, i don't know how to guide you with the 'terminology'.

Here is an example of how the industry 'views' you?.... after the geometry there are 'two' versions of the results, the 'Dumb' one is for the customer and the 'full one' is for the technician/ company..... the printout you showed was the 'Dumb' one... that's why there so few angles were shown on the print

You will need to insist that the 'Castor' is measured before and after the camber recovery, and that you want the 'full' print report.... one area on the full report is the KPI/ SJI... this is the King Pin Inclination and the Swivel Joint Inclination terminology there differs by machine type, if that's on the print then it's the full one.....

OR

Just have them read my site

and please let them know WIM is 'watching'

[Mark D]

I think I'll have a good read over your site before I go down. I'm thinking I might go Wednesday morning if work permits. I take possession of my new house on Thursday, so thime won't be somthing I'll have a lot of after that.

[Tony-Bones]

I think I'll have a good read over your site before I go down. I'm thinking I might go Wednesday morning if work permits. I take possession of my new house on Thursday, so thime won't be somthing I'll have a lot of after that.

←

I will support you at any point if needed! PM me if you want any contact #

In addition it may help if i write the full procedure for adjusting the geometry on the IS200/ 300/ SC and either display it here or on my site.

[Mark D]

I think I'll have a good read over your site before I go down. I'm thinking I might go Wednesday morning if work permits. I take possession of my new house on Thursday, so thime won't be somthing I'll have a lot of after that.

←

I will support you at any point if needed! PM me if you want any contact #

In addition it may help if i write the full procedure for adjusting the geometry on the IS200/ 300/ SC and either display it here or on my site.

←

Sounds like a good idea - then next time I get the geometry done, I'll go somewhere else - and ask if they are willing to follow the procedure - if not then it's on to the next place until I find someone who is willing to approach the job with an open mind.

[Tony-Bones]

I think I'll have a good read over your site before I go down. I'm thinking I might go Wednesday morning if work permits. I take possession of my new house on Thursday, so thime won't be somthing I'll have a lot of after that.

←

I will support you at any point if needed! PM me if you want any contact #

In addition it may help if i write the full procedure for adjusting the geometry on the IS200/ 300/ SC and either display it here or on my site.

←

Sounds like a good idea - then next time I get the geometry done, I'll go somewhere else - and ask if they are willing to follow the procedure - if not then it's on to the next place until I find someone who is willing to approach the job with an open mind.

←

'Educated mind' :D advice should be free...... IS200/ 300/ SC geometry procedure will be constructed for all to read or 'argue'

[Mark D]

All booked for tomorrow at 10am - should be fun.

I'll report back soonest.

[Tony-Bones]

All booked for tomorrow at 10am - should be fun.

I'll report back soonest.

←

'Be sure, educated and forceful' insist on three things!

1:- the osf camber at 37'-

2:- another 'Castor swing' after correction

3:- an apology

[Mark D]

Hi Tony,

I've sent you a PM about my visit today. No print out unfortunatley :(

[Tony-Bones]

Scary pm!... really 'scary!'

Actual content belongs to Mark D.

It would seem that armed with knowledge coursed some panic and now things are worse.

'To be continued'.......

[Mark D]

Scary pm!... really 'scary!'

Actual content belongs to Mark D.

It would seem that armed with knowledge coursed some panic and now things are worse.

'To be continued'.......

←

Not to worry - as discussed, I'll seek out a tyre center who is willing to cooperate with me - and we can take things from there :)

[Tony-Bones]

Scary pm!... really 'scary!'

Actual content belongs to Mark D.

It would seem that armed with knowledge coursed some panic and now things are worse.

'To be continued'.......

←

Not to worry - as discussed, I'll seek out a tyre center who is willing to cooperate with me - and we can take things from there :)

←

'INDEED'

[ColinBarber]

I hope you got a refund?