Turbo Vs. Super Charging

[Monster-Mat]

debates are good.....

thats what this forum is for

Mass-debates :D

Edited November 26, 2005 by Monster-Mat

[Obsessed]

Most forums are.

It seems to be a big waste of time with most people..

I'm just happy to be able to talk to others with turbo charged cars as they are not very popular here in oz.

I'm hoping to learn a few little tricks that you guys might have worked out.

[RoadRash]

You can tune your fuel system to pump more fuel through the same injector.  :winky:

Higher fuel pressure on same injector size = more fuel

Bigger inejector on same pressure = more fuel

Higher fuel pressure on bigger injectors = more fuel

B)

So I was wondering why you needed 750cc injects?!?  :duh:

Bigger injectors on too less fuel pressure = less fuel = less power

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Tell me your being funny????

Higher fuel pressure on same injector size= more fuel.. what breakfast cereal pack did you read that on?? (I wonder why they sell different size injectors then?)

Please tell me you understand that no matter how much fuel pressure you pump into a fuel rail the injectors can only flow what they are capable of..

Once again, if the fuel pressure and reg are fine but the engine is still not getting enough fuel.(on max duty) It must be because the injectors are not providing enough fuel.. as you put it :duh:

Not only is to small of an injector on a built motor limiting your power its risking your motor due to running lean. (please dont say you can up the fuel pressure) :shutit:

---> My car made more power on the same boost with bigger injectors and now has plenty of fuel for higher boost.. ---> The smaller injectors were maxed out.

So if you still dont understand why I put bigger injectors in my car I dont want to get into a debate as I'm sure it will be a waste of time.

P.s I'm sorry to everyone for getting off track but I still pick turbo :winky:

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Have you ever learned Physics??

Then you should know that:

VOLUME = DIAMETER x PRESSURE

Q = v * A

Q= Volume

v= speed (depends on Pressure = m/s)

A= area (depends on diameter of pipe/injectors size)

So if you raise A (injector size) or v (pressure) or both, the injected fuel volume per time unit will raise. :winky:

If you don't believe..... get back to school.

EDIT:

And notice:

An injector is nothing else than an OPEN/CLOSE valve.

It can only longer or shorten the open time, given by the ECU, that's why you leaned out although your duty cycle was maxxed out.

The more pressure you pump thru the injector the more fuel you get.

Simply Physics...... you need more knowledge than Mechanics to tune up a car. ;)

[AIRFORCE1]

the more base pressure behind the injector the more it will flow.injector ratings are quoted at 3 bar fuel pressure generally.the problems with increasing fuel pressure to effectly increase injector cc is that you get to the point very quickly that you mess up the spray and hence make no gains.

Your better using bigger injectors and sticking to the pressure they work best at :)

[RoadRash]

The highest recommended fuel pressure is ~5bar.

It doesn't have a messed up effect on spraying but there is a huge difference in power.

As far as I know, the more pressure the better the spraying of the fuel. :)

Of course.... when still raising boost, once you will have to get bigger injectors. :winky:

[Obsessed]

learned physics..

learnt english?

You should open your own mechanical workshop.... Your great at pyhsics, your car must fly :D

All these pro engine builders fitting large injectors to big HP cars need to speak with you..

I'll tune my car and you tune your car. But thanks for the advice

I was going to buy new cams so it rev'd harder but now after talking to you I might just buy smaller profile tyres. :winky:

[Monster-Mat]

learnt english?

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Mike(Roadrash) is from Austria, i think to make this a fairer discussion Obsessed, maybe we should continue in German?

see the point.......maybe your comment was a bit off!

Edited November 27, 2005 by Monster-Mat

[RoadRash]

learnt english?

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Mike(Roadrash) is from Austria, i think to make this a fairer discussion Obsessed, maybe we should continue in German?

see the point.......maybe your comment was a bit off!

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Exactly :P

learned physics..

learnt english?

You should open your own mechanical workshop.... Your great at pyhsics, your car must fly  :D

All these pro engine builders fitting large injectors to big HP cars need to speak with you..

I'll tune my car and you tune your car. But thanks for the advice

I was going to buy new cams so it rev'd harder but now after talking to you I might just buy smaller profile tyres. :winky:

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Aber wir können auch in Deutsch weiterdiskutieren. ;)

Jedenfalls wenn Du den Benzindruck erhöhst, erhöhst Du auch die Durchflussmenge. :D

Find out what I wrote..... Mat don't help. :P

And please don't confuse Austria with Australia, as Americans do, we don't have kangaroos.

I won't open my own mechanical workshop, because performance tuning isn't something what people want here.

The exhaust gas laws are too strict, so you have 2 options to do it illegal or never. ;)

And it seems you confused something.... you was talking about big HP cars.

Of course... I wrote to fit bigger injectors when raising to higher boost for getting HI-HP.

I built up my IS200 Turbo comepletely myself inclussive exhaust and fuel system upgrade.

I have a wideband lambda and it says a constant A/F through the rpm-band @0.6bar, which it didn't do before I upgraded my fuel system.

And I didn't exchange the injects. My fuel system is running @ ~4bar and if I want to go with 0.8bar boost, I only need to raise the fuel pressure and set it up with the S-AFC.

So if I want more than 300HP I would anyway need bigger injectors. ;)

DAZ's IS put +260BHP on the ground and at JAE we comparised with driving around and the acceleration of his and mine was very close.

The higher fuel pressure is to help giving more fuel in the mid-HP range.

Comprende Amigo??

[Gord]

I think you wrote = I love you and want to move to Australia, so i can carry on modding cars :D :D :P

[Monster-Mat]

I think you wrote = I love you and want to move to Australia, so i can carry on modding cars  :D  :D      :P

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close, but no cigar!

[Obsessed]

And please don't confuse Austria with Australia, as Americans do, we don't have kangaroos.

So if I want more than 300HP I would anyway need bigger injectors. ;)

You can speak in whatever language you want.. It still does not change your grammar! (which was incorrect...)You want to give criticism, but you dont want to take it?

I would never confuse you for an Aussie dont worry about that!!

So your now saying you would upgrade your injectors for more 300HP??

Because your first post mentioned something about I wouldn't need to, as just higher fuel pressure would produce more power than my transmission could ever handle.

Since you are so knowledgable and pointed out the error in my ways.. Please enlighten me with your wisdom..

I made 335rwhp at 15 psi and will be running 24psi once the wastegate is sorted out.. I will crack the 400rwhp.. So should I fit the smaller injectors and up the fuel pressure, because I'm sure my transmission will handle it... (Even knowing just a change of injectors picked up over 5rwhp and will be sufficent for the higher psi)

As I said before you tune your car and I'll tune mine.. We can compare later. :winky:

[RoadRash]

And please don't confuse Austria with Australia, as Americans do, we don't have kangaroos.

So if I want more than 300HP I would anyway need bigger injectors. ;)

You can speak in whatever language you want.. It still does not change your grammar! (which was incorrect...)You want to give criticism, but you dont want to take it?

I would never confuse you for an Aussie dont worry about that!!

So your now saying you would upgrade your injectors for more 300HP??

Because your first post mentioned something about I wouldn't need to, as just higher fuel pressure would produce more power than my transmission could ever handle.

Since you are so knowledgable and pointed out the error in my ways.. Please enlighten me with your wisdom..

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I never said "to use small injectors no matter how many HP you want to go".

It's limited of course, but it seems you don't have an idea of tuning cars, oherwise you would know all that.

When you have a car with 150HP and boost it up to 250 or 300HP then it's enough to raise the fuel pressure.

Do you want to go higher HP then you will have to change injects once.

Did you do the work on your car by yourself or a professional workshop??

I'd like to know, because ordinary you should know all that stuff and not to give sensless critic all the time and talking ****. ;)

You're offtopic all the time and never tell me why I shouldn't get more HP on turbo cars when raising FP?!? :duh:

I made 335rwhp at 15 psi and will be running 24psi once the wastegate is sorted out..  I will crack the 400rwhp.. So should I fit the smaller injectors and up the fuel pressure, because I'm sure my transmission will handle it...

:tsktsk: :yack: :duh:

He doesn't understand.....

HELP!!!!

You would know the answer when you would have any little idea of tuning cars.

Now I know why he is calling himself "obsessed". :shutit:

[Obsessed]

[I never said "to use small injectors no matter how many HP you want to go".

I believe you wrote..

With 440cc injects and the correct fuel system setup the engine should produce more power than the transmission can ever take. So does this mean my transmission will not handle more than 300hp professor??

It's limited of course, but it seems you don't have an idea of tuning cars, oherwise you would know all that.

I believe I said

Why limit or risk your motor? Sounds like your coming around..

You would know the answer when you would have any little idea of tuning cars.

HAHAHAHA

Obviously you cant even read between the lines..

I was being sarcastic... Why would I want your help. How much power did your car have Mr professor?? Your injectors were most probably to small.. :P

If I dont know how to tune cars It surly shows with my 2lt.. :winky:

But yet your giving backyard advice which will shorten the life of injectors and seals. Its a short fix that will give no long term remedy especially when they are maxed out at half boost..

Your now saying 250-300 is enough to change injectors..Stop contradicting yourself. If you read my first post I said I had 335 at the wheels at only half boost.

You're offtopic all the time and never tell me why I shouldn't get more HP on turbo cars when raising FP?!?

We are not talking about other peoples cars, you were talking about MY car which was maxed out at half boost and MY choice of injectors. So who is off topic??

Uping the fuel pressure will not help me. And my choice of bigger injectors obviously worked and is going to be able to supply enough fuel at higher boost and power levels which will be well over 300 at the wheels.

Sounds like you have a great knowledge of motor cars and love to share it on the internet..

As I said we can compare power figures later. :winky:

You should stop worrying about my choice of injectors which was the right, and worrying about looking like an idiot.. Mr internet mechanic. I wonder how much other bad advice you have given people or have they just (learned) to ignore you as I should have in the first place.

And I call myself Obsessed because I have a clothing label under that name :D

[Monster-Mat]

stop being abusive......!!

[StainlessSteelRat]

I don't know about everybody else, but I can't keep track of this thread. Between the abuse and the injector sizes I've know idea what's going on. :duh:

So am I right in saying that you only need 1 injector and six fuel pumps....

S.

[RoadRash]

PPfff...... funny boy.

Ask Marcus, Dave and any others about my Help. ;)

Forget it..... you really don't want to understand what I was meaning, you turn words around themselves as you like :duh: as your name says "OBSESSED"

You don't even can quote posts correct, how can you modify cars then??

So does this mean my transmission will not handle more than 300hp professor??

NO! Don't know where you take this SH*T from?? :duh:

I didn't say the tranny can't handle more than 300HP.

I meant that with 440cc your engine COULD produce more power than your tranny can take.

I don't know who is bad in English... ME OR YOU??

Your now saying 250-300 is enough to change injectors..Stop contradicting yourself. If you read my first post I said I had 335 at the wheels at only half boost.

you wrote with 500cc.

And I wrote for 250-300HP it's enough to raise fuel pressure.

Don't know what's wrong with you, you should think first, then write and then booze and not booze, then write and not think.

Uping the fuel pressure will not help me. And my choice of bigger injectors obviously worked and is going to be able to supply enough fuel at higher boost and power levels which will be well over 300 at the wheels.

You should stop worrying about my choice of injectors which was the right, and worrying about loooking like an idiot.. Mr internet mechanic.

N1 Joke

I wasn't worrying about your choice.

I told ya that with higher FP you can also get more fuel (as I did on mine) and you didn't believe and since then you only write useless cr*p and no facts.

Internet Mech..... HAHA....

I hope you won't help poeple to max out their duty-cycles because then they need bi-cycles.

Some things I would recommend for you:

- Learn Physics then you know how to calculate volumes, flow rates and so on

- Learn "How to quote posts" then you don't need to write everything a 2nd time

(do you? Or have you learned how to copy texts?)

- Learn Languages it's the most important thing in the world to communicate to

people, at all in the internet.

- Learn Mechanics, then you know how to tune cars and don't need 750cc injects

on a 330HP car

- Learn to listen what people say/write then you don't need to turn their own

words and phrases into bullsh*t

- Maybe once you change your name from "obsessed" to "insightful"

[Obsessed]

The only reason we have not gone past 335 at he wheels is becuase the Interal waste gate is not holding boost past 15psi. We are in the middle of a turbo swap.. So dont worry the injectors haven't started working yet.. :winky:

This guy OBVIOUSLY knows what his talking about...

I am willing to compare power figures with you so I can see where I am going wrong.

Your right stainless steel

Sorry for getting off track.. And wrecking what was a good thread. (hope it can be amended)

About the abuse, I'm sorry I called him an idiot as I definity can think of other words to discribe him. Besides only the new comers get in trouble for abusing

[legendswraith]

Is there really any point in getting into arguments i personally use this to fill the gaps in my own knowledge or correct things i have misunderstood, as there are alot of people out there with alot more practical knowledge than me.

From what i understand of injectors though they are designed to spray in a particular pattern under a certain psi. This pattern will give you near enough the most efficient burning (i know the need to overfuel etc). So when you are upping your horse power if you are putting more fuel into the engine at a higher pressure to maintain the spray pattern you would have to change injectors at a rate that would match the supply pressure of the fuel to the size of injector. For example huge injectors and low supply pressure would give you "tuliping" rather than a spray and your performance would suffer (at what point this happens i don't know) as the combustion cycle would be inefficient due to the fuel remaining poorly mixed.

I stand or at least sit to be corrected as my knowledge is crossing over from gas turbs.

Think this topic need to be renamed as well as its moved well away from what it originally was but there is some good information and facts here it wold be a good resourse for those in the process of modding and it could be used as a forum to beat out solutions for turbo/supercharger problems and upgrades

[Fever]

Obessed stop bashing a long standing, knowledgable and helpful LOC member with your childish comments! Debating and discussing is one thing but speaking to people with an attitude like yours is what cr*ps up this club!

>>>Anyway, on topic, I'm loving the S/C route at the moment...if you want to spend less cash and get some good power increases its the way to go! But like others have said, if you have money to burn it's all about the turbo!

Put it this way, you can add bits as you save more cash...

1. S/C install

2. Induction kit

3. Rear Exhaust section

4. Manifold (minus precats)

5. High flow cat

6. Lightened Flywheel

7. Uprated Clutch

8. ECU upgrade and re-map

I reckon its safe to say that you could do all that, almost hit 250Bhp and still be able to run the standard engine internals, injectors, etc!

...well thats what I'm working on at the moment! :D

[Mr Singh]

Is this the same 'Obsessed' from Altezza Club Aus?

If so, Hallooo :winky:

[gsportcars]

Cracking debate their lads!!!!

Some good reading in there!! :P

I can see where both parties are coming from but can also see the flaws.

Put simply- there is no need for 700cc injectors to produce 330bhp.

but also as Jonny(airforceone) mentioned, upping the fuel pressure is ok to a point but it can ruin the spray pattern if raised too much.

I am waiting on a set of 315cc injectors which will allow me to run .6/.7bar of boost while still only using the normal recommended 3bar of fuel pressure.

This will suit me fine until I do the engine rebuild but then I will need injectors about 440/450cc to run the higher boost. (can't bloomin wait!!!! :D )

Obsessed- where did you source your injectors from and do you have any old aftermarket ones that you may be looking rid of????

Marcus- looking forward to hearing how the motor runs with the forged goodies in there!! what make of pistons/rods did you get?

Oh and as I said in a previous post---turbo all the way!!!! :D

[legendswraith]

Cracking debate their lads!!!!

Some good reading in there!! :P

I can see where both parties are coming from but can also see the flaws.

Put simply- there is no need for 700cc injectors to produce 330bhp.

but also as Jonny(airforceone) mentioned, upping the fuel pressure is ok to a point but it can ruin the spray pattern if raised too much.

I am waiting on a set of 315cc injectors which will allow me to run .6/.7bar of boost while still only using the normal recommended 3bar of fuel pressure.

This will suit me fine until I do the engine rebuild but then I will need injectors about 440/450cc to run the higher boost. (can't bloomin wait!!!! :D )

Obsessed- where did you source your injectors from and do you have any old aftermarket ones that you may be looking rid of????

Marcus- looking forward to hearing how the motor runs with the forged goodies in there!! what make of pistons/rods did you get?

Oh and as I said in a previous post---turbo all the way!!!! :D

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can we do upping fuel pressure by adding restrictors too :D

[6Speed]

On all my other cars, NA and Turbo, I have always used an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. To me this is one of the first things you do along with an induction kit and exhaust. Tweeking the fuel pressure is alot easier than changing injectors and keeps it running sweet.

There does come a point where larger injectors are needed but this usually involves lots of power and a complete fuel system upgrade.

[gsportcars]

can we do upping fuel pressure by adding restrictors too :D

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Don't know what you mean??? :duh:

Should I get me coat

[Bazza]

Cracking debate their lads!!!!

Some good reading in there!! :P

I can see where both parties are coming from but can also see the flaws.

Put simply- there is no need for 700cc injectors to produce 330bhp.

but also as Jonny(airforceone) mentioned, upping the fuel pressure is ok to a point but it can ruin the spray pattern if raised too much.

I am waiting on a set of 315cc injectors which will allow me to run .6/.7bar of boost while still only using the normal recommended 3bar of fuel pressure.

This will suit me fine until I do the engine rebuild but then I will need injectors about 440/450cc to run the higher boost. (can't bloomin wait!!!! :D )

Obsessed- where did you source your injectors from and do you have any old aftermarket ones that you may be looking rid of????

Marcus- looking forward to hearing how the motor runs with the forged goodies in there!! what make of pistons/rods did you get?

Oh and as I said in a previous post---turbo all the way!!!! :D

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can we do upping fuel pressure by adding restrictors too :D

←

On all my other cars, NA and Turbo, I have always used an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. To me this is one of the first things you do along with an induction kit and exhaust. Tweeking the fuel pressure is alot easier than changing injectors and keeps it running sweet.

There does come a point where larger injectors are needed but this usually involves lots of power and a complete fuel system upgrade.

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not easily possible on the IS

as it doesnt use a return fuel line, the regulator being in the fuel tank

so to install a rrfr you would need to run a return fuel line, obviously possible but not a quick cheap job