Are They Really That Bad

[Northern Boys Luv Gravy]

Just my 2p worth; I don't think it's fair to have a pop at Jamboo - all he's ever done is report the good and bad regarding his car and work with his dealer to resolve any issues. Incidentally, I still find Lexus dealer to be the best in the business. Any dealership of any marque will charge an arm and a leg for things like towbars and car kits - it's the way of the world and why no-one in their right mind gets these things fitted there.

I also think that perhaps the fuel economy of the IS250 Auto against the 220d is being inflated a bit as well. I've had 2 and they have consistently averaged only 29mpg - rising to 35mpg on a long motorway run. A 220d will average 38mpg - more on a long run, so it is more than 30% more economical. After being given a 220d for the day i found it more relaxing and refined than the equivalent A4 with only 1st gear being a bit problematic - then again it will happily pull away in 2nd so that is surmountable. I've also got 3 colleagues with 220ds and they love them - in fact 2 are putting in orders for new ones when their contracts run out, so it's clear that not everyone is dissatisfied by any means.

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

One very final thing...if you seriously knew that you would get 25-45MPG with a 220 diesel and 23-44MPG (both real world) with the 250 Auto, would you seriously have bought a diesel manual gearbox'd Lexus? So come on 06G220d and dgman, why did you buy it?

I am not going to get "jibed" out by people who ignore common sense and don't want anthing negative posted. And no I'm not even going to post my A4 resuts on this site because I feel hunted. Just grow up - and stop behaving like 3 year olds.

I am getting 38-42mpg consistently on my usual mix of driving. Better on long runs obviously. So I am getting what I expected and I am happy.

Interesting comment elsewhere about low sulphur diesel. The manual recommended to only use low sulphur diesel and, on buying the car, I checked to see which brands in Ireland are low suphur. The answer I got is that they are all low sulphur now.

As I have posted before, but it seems to need repeating for some readers, I feel, that over time, this forum became biased toward negative comment. Does the heading on this thread, "Are they really that bad?". not support that interpretation. Why would someone post a thread like that if that was not the message the forum is conveying to them? And don't they have the right to know that there are many happy is220d owners out there? Let them make their decision using heir own success criteria and all the facts, not just a selection of the facts. And finally, what offends me is being repeatedly told that my experiences are not valid or being told that I don't live in the "real world."

There was no intention to offend (sorry if it did), however, I now have become accustomed (seriously) to question the circumtances within which anyone gets the sorts of MPG figures you do, Finlex, dgman does etc. So it comes down to speed (which is why I made the exaggerated comment of speed limits in Ireland and the real world - your journeys could be typically A road at 50-62mph), component fixes or fuel.

I did ask about the likelyhood of pipe getting choked again, and was told that both the revised component and new associated ECU mapping will stop it...time will tell!! Apparently it is a breather pipe (I think) which heads off towards the EGR valve, and the service managher at Leicester knows all about it...

It is absolutely possible that all new cars are fixed...and I would only re-iterate that the IS220d is excellent Value for money, still the best looking car in this class, and every one should buy with their eyes wide open and be totally happy!!

NBLG - the trip I did ysterday - I did that in an IS250 Auto courtesy car at very similar speeds to what I did in my car:

result:

Difference on that run was circa 10% in favour of my car, which is fully run in and the latest software and hardware

Just my 2p worth; I don't think it's fair to have a pop at Jamboo - all he's ever done...

PS - NBLG - how do you know Jamboo is a "He"

[dgman]

I do ignore mag tests - 'cos the MPG figure they give is normally based on what they got after they thrashed it. That ain't real world.

I haven't read the Autocar mag, but I reckon that is what it will be. If they did that to the IS, I wonder what it would have got...

I can only measure what it gives after I drive it...and I ain't so stupid that I would drive an a4 so gently that it blows the IS away - gis a break!

Bottom line is mine has had 2 lots of bits replaced since new around emissions/fuel consumption, plus 2-3 ECU reprogrammes. There is clearly something wrong with the cars, and Lexus are doing their best to resolve it.

ow seriously guys - is 25-29mpg from a diesel good? That's what most of us get in town in the UK...mine was as bad as 23 until yesterday!

So back to topic, is it really that bad, make up your own mind. I would still say go get the 250 Auto - ...!

t.hey did test the is when it was launched it returned 37 same as merc.i think you said that when the competition started to use partical filters etc we may se similar figures from their vehicles.ido sympathise with your plight.

What do you mean you "Sypathise with my plight"?

Oh I see -you're referring to a test from what, 2 years ago when the IS came out? That would have been against the old C class - and was that renowned for fuel economy? I don't think so - in fact it had govt test figures almost the same as the IS from what I recall - it was the old 4 cylinder C class engine (150bhp?) which had been around for a while!

I would suggest you actually drive the new C220CDi and post an unbiased thread on what you think about how it compares overall. I have driven it twice, and previously posted exactly what I thought.

I always tell it like it is - I'm not here to impress anyone, but more importantly I'm not going to post advice on here which may make someone spend their money unwisely, which is why I always say - test the IS220d properly, compare it to other cars and then decide. That's where I believe the value of the experience of an owners club member/s comes into play.

If you have £20+K to spend and space is not a priority and you will consider an Auto then the IS250SE Auto is the perfect car...the Manual is OK, but as an Auto it is a proper Lexus, and from my experience almost as economical in overall terms as the IS220d...

I have no issues with my dealer - I use the Lexus Leicester (same as Philty and Harrydavey) - they have always been courteous and professional during all my episodes of despair and I am actually impressed with them!

One other thing - I do take some offence at being told that my poll was ecouraging bad input...people will see (if they bother to actually read the results) that many have no issues and loads of people are totally satisfied/would buy another. How can you see that? Because there are specific questions asking for those answers. You have to remember that some of us have had more warranty visits than we care to count and the poll was designed to see if my experiences (and those of a few more) are actually representative. If you think that these polls are not fit for purpose then contact the admin team and have them or the option of creating them removed!

If you seriously think that there are only a minority of cars with the problem, then Lexus would not have developed umpteen fixes to fix it! Simple fact.

If anyone wants an all "cuddly positive" poll then create one, no ones stopping you! May you basque in the sunshine...

To just poop the Poll as not having a sufficient sample frame is quite frankly silly. If anyone thinks they can do a better job, go ahead. Lets see if you can do a better job.

One very final thing...if you seriously knew that you would get 25-45MPG with a 220 diesel and 23-44MPG (both real world) with the 250 Auto, would you seriously have bought a diesel manual gearbox'd Lexus? So come on 06G220d and dgman, why did you buy it?

I am not going to get "jibed" out by people who ignore common sense and don't want anthing negative posted. And no I'm not even going to post my A4 resuts on this site because I feel hunted. Just grow up - and stop behaving like 3 year olds.

iimean that i sympathise with the dissatisfaction that you have with your car.as to the autoexpress economy figures these relate to latest models.what combined avg is going to make you a happy camper.

[Northern Boys Luv Gravy]

PS - NBLG - how do you know Jamboo is a "He"

Is there something you're not telling your wife and us??

[VrmmVrmm]

Give a dog a bone!

We're not willing to let go of this bone yet!....Are we?

This thread has cracked it...which goes to show the usefulness of varied opinion. I was tempted to think that the UK model of IS220D may be slighty different spec (this does happen) Now...I'm fully convinced its the DIESEL and its sulphur content. That is the main culprit in terms of performance acceleration and economy. If your 5th injector is choked up then the engine will be both sluggish and poor on mpg. I can tell without fear of too much contradiction the last car I had was a 2.0 litre merc petrol...very lively. The IS220D is like a rocket when I want it to be ...by this I'm specifically mean go...go...go. It streaks away.

So... yes...it appears the grievences are valid (never doubted any of you) but not necessarily the car. Its the bloody fuel and probably always has been.

I remember as you will if you've been following this kind of thread (many of them) from the start, some were able to comment on the supermarket diesel as opposed to using main line brands ...Esso...Shell...etc and you reported clear differences that you actually measured. It would be interesting for those with the know how to find out the sulphur levels of diesel sold across UK & Europe. You never know we might be able to solve something that the mighty Toyota/Lexus corporation cannot.

OR Perhaps they knew this all along when they stipulated that the fuel MUST be low sulphur diesel....interesting when you think about it!

Well done everybody ...let go of the bone....grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[dgman]

Just my 2p worth; I don't think it's fair to have a pop at Jamboo - all he's ever done is report the good and bad regarding his car and work with his dealer to resolve any issues. Incidentally, I still find Lexus dealer to be the best in the business. Any dealership of any marque will charge an arm and a leg for things like towbars and car kits - it's the way of the world and why no-one in their right mind gets these things fitted there.

I also think that perhaps the fuel economy of the IS250 Auto against the 220d is being inflated a bit as well. I've had 2 and they have consistently averaged only 29mpg - rising to 35mpg on a long motorway run. A 220d will average 38mpg - more on a long run, so it is more than 30% more economical. After being given a 220d for the day i found it more relaxing and refined than the equivalent A4 with only 1st gear being a bit problematic - then again it will happily pull away in 2nd so that is surmountable. I've also got 3 colleagues with 220ds and they love them - in fact 2 are putting in orders for new ones when their contracts run out, so it's clear that not everyone is dissatisfied by any means.

to be fair i don't think anybody is having a pop at jamboo.he is frustrated with his car and if any of us were in his shoes we would probably feel the same.he should not feel hunted just because the happypunters are saying it as they see it.the poll does appear to be abit of crusade. spot on with your economy comments.

[Matus]

SO because someone posts a negative opinion of the IS220D no one should take any notice of them? What utter rubbish. I'm paid to drive a car very fast as part of my job so I know a thing or two about how to drive. The IS220D is a very nice looking car that fails in all it attempts to be. It is not fast in comparrison to its competition. It has the worst fuel economy of the class I'm getting 33mpg around town driving like Miss Daisey. The gearing is crap. The ride harsh and the engine noisy. Couple that with poor dealership standards common in a lot of places judging by the review section and the IS220 doesn't seem very appealing. I'd recommend test driving one for a day before you commit to buying one. If you have to have a deisel I'd recommend looking elsewhere. If you really want an IS go for the IS250.

Mate, I have to reply when I read this...

So, you are a fast driver, good driver, also rider (like me :) ) so I don't understand howcome did you not recognize the "crap gearing" on test drive. I am more surprised why did you spent so much money on such a bad car? You must be lexus lover then...

Harsh ride? What are you comparing to? I am not saying that it is like with Mercedes's air matic DC, but the BMW 320d on 16" rides with the same "harshness". Don't know the new C class, but I am sure that new A4 will be harsher.

Noisy engine? you must be joking. I have tried many diesel cars but IS and BMW320d are the quietest. Here are the interior measurements:

60 km/h 3rd (dB) BMW 59,2 Lexus 59,5 Alfa 61,4

80 km/h 4th (dB) BMW 61,8 Lexus 62,9 Alfa 65,7

100 km/h 5th (dB) Lexus 64,1 BMW 64,5 Alfa 66,3

(alfa is the 159 2,4 JTD modell)

Consumption - yes, I agree, that consumption is a bit higher than competition. But trust me, if you're driving between 2000 and 2600, it means that you use the power, and driving like this won't give you 40+mpg of any actual diesel car with 177hp.

Jamboo> on spritmonitor.de, 11 bmw 535d has the average 9,24l/100km and the IS220d 8 cars have the average of 7,42l/100km, so it is certainly not truth that the 535d has the same consumption as IS220d.

[Matus]

Dealerships are not to be trusted. Another fine example of why not; I wanted a tow bar fitting to mine. Price from the dealership £800. Tow-bar centre down the road, (and the one the dealership would have used I hasten to add), £325. Rip off R us. Hands free car kit fitted £250. Same kit from Halfords fitted £99.

do you think it is different in audi,mercedes, bmw

[Matus]

The car isn't bad, but it isn't the best. I'm not disatisfied with it entirely.

this car is not perfect, I agree.

But which one is?

[Matus]

I'm totally with VrmmVrmm on this one.

It's funny, actually. VrmmVrmm and I both have a Jan 07 model with about the same amount of kilometers on the clock. We both seem to have 47.1 MPG since new. We both drive predominantly below 60 mph and below 2000 RPM. We both drive mostly on extra-urban roads. Under these circumstances, the 220d returns reasonable MPG. Under some other circumstances, it seems not to. Everyone can make of that what they want, but let's try and keep our feelings under control.

I drive in different conditions, but 2 weeks ago I had a 100km trip (50kms there and 50kms back, within 1,5 hour so perfect conditons to measure the consumption), only contry roads (90kph, 5th) + villages (65kph, 4th) and I stopped with 5,2l/100km (54mpg). Aircon and seat heating on.

So I agree with youse, it is archievable. My car is 12/2005, no changes in engine parts at all (AFAIK)

[Matus]

BTW - what's yournational speed limit in Ireland? Mainly 50mph I've heard - mainly A roads - it's no wonder you get 45+mpg. Drive it in the real world matey!

In Slovakia we have limits: city 60kph, country roads 90kph, highway 130kph.

My consumption is in the signature.

However I agree that the speed affect the consumption a lot - not the max level of the speed, but the normal speed and its connection with usable gear and rpm

[Matus]

The IS appearance makes it look like it is meant to go fast and not be driven like a milk float in order to get a barely reasonable fuel return. One of its big attractions is the looks.

I think you misunderstood the lexus's message.

Lexus doesn't make sports cars, they make luxury cars. Luxury, quietness, refinement...these don't go hand in hand with sporty driving.

BTW why didn't you buy IS250?

[Matus]

Its easy to say in hindsight that we should all have asked for the car for a day/week to try out but that doesnt happen for most people in real life. They see a car they like, go to the garage on a saturday, drive it around the block with the salesman( slowly) and then imbued with great ideas spend the next two weeks trying to get the best deal they can get from finance people.

I wish I could buy my next 25k car like bread rolls!

Seriously, I had two test drives with IS before I bought it. I tested motorbike for one day (and 600km) before I bought it. I was testing 25min the skiboots before I bought them.

Maybe I am crazy, but at least I am satisfied with my shopping :-)

[Matus]

In Jamboo defence, I've done over 60k and in the dozens of times the car has been back to lexus Leicester, have driven lots of 220d and all have very simular mpg (30-33). There are now lots of people with bad mpg figures, I think I have only seen 2 from England but perhaps they all use Honestjohn!!! :shutit:

Harry, no offence to you man, but after this post I start to think that the "problem" is between the seat and steering wheel ;-)

[Matus]

Driving mine like an old codger for the last few days to see what fuel economy I could realise around town resulted in 33.8mpg max. If the traffic is really heavy it drops almost immediately due to that rubbish first gear. Now I'm bored sick doing it so will be resorting back to how the car should be driven. I estimate I'd get around 430 mile to a tank driving around town like I'm on sleeping pills. No more I tell you, no more!

well, I don't know, but 33,8 for pure urban driving looks OK for me. What would you expect from 177hp diesel engine?

[Matus]

All in all I'm a happy, contented IS220d driver - sure I could get better responsiveness if I'd bought a BMW and better economy if I'd bought the A4 or the Volvo but that's not why I bought the Lexus - I knew when I signed on the dotted line that it wasn't the best performer in every area but as an overall package I think it takes a lot of beating & I for one would recommend it to someone who wanted a good looking, well engineered, well specified car that they'd enjoy driving. If economy was their overriding criteria when choosing a new car then no, the IS220d isn't for them - but I'd have to ask why they were looking at it in the first place.

Guy

I would use the same words - but I am already after 1,5 years and 26k kms.

[VrmmVrmm]

WORTH A READ...(give it a go)

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/sulphur/cb...phurcontent.pdf

It relates to Diesel...Sulphur...NOX...Euro III...Euro IV...etc...etc

It is interesting and serves as an aid to understanding what may or may not be happening to the now infamous 5th injector re: coking up.

The negative consequence being a complete fall off in the expectations for the IS220D.

Lexus have claims that relate to meeting the standards mentioned in this document. The tolerances of various specifications make it a 'must do' when you choose which fuel you regularly use. According to this it is crucial...if you wish your vehicle to meet performances stated as being achievable. In searching for this document I also stumbled on an article/press release from BP re: the petrol and diesel fuels meeting a UK Parliament directive in force since 4th December 2007 (11 weeks ago only)

[Matus]

I am sorry for so many posts from me.

Anyway one more: I read you have problems with 1st, standing start...

There are two problems which are causing this: heavy flywheel and sharp (sensible) clutch. Engine response is slow in low rpm and sharp clutch causes stalling the engine.

When I drive petrol cars, it is OK to press the accelerator and depress the clutch at same time. This is not possible with the IS. Press the accelerator, let the engine get the speed a bit* and then start to depress the clutch.

*when accelerating "normally" I let it spin till 1200-1500rpm. When I need quick start I let it to 2000rpm. It needs a bit of practise but it is worth.

[philthy]

SO because someone posts a negative opinion of the IS220D no one should take any notice of them? What utter rubbish. I'm paid to drive a car very fast as part of my job so I know a thing or two about how to drive. The IS220D is a very nice looking car that fails in all it attempts to be. It is not fast in comparrison to its competition. It has the worst fuel economy of the class I'm getting 33mpg around town driving like Miss Daisey. The gearing is crap. The ride harsh and the engine noisy. Couple that with poor dealership standards common in a lot of places judging by the review section and the IS220 doesn't seem very appealing. I'd recommend test driving one for a day before you commit to buying one. If you have to have a deisel I'd recommend looking elsewhere. If you really want an IS go for the IS250.

Mate, I have to reply when I read this...

So, you are a fast driver, good driver, also rider (like me :) ) so I don't understand howcome did you not recognize the "crap gearing" on test drive. I am more surprised why did you spent so much money on such a bad car? You must be lexus lover then...

Harsh ride? What are you comparing to? I am not saying that it is like with Mercedes's air matic DC, but the BMW 320d on 16" rides with the same "harshness". Don't know the new C class, but I am sure that new A4 will be harsher.

Noisy engine? you must be joking. I have tried many diesel cars but IS and BMW320d are the quietest. Here are the interior measurements:

60 km/h 3rd (dB) BMW 59,2 Lexus 59,5 Alfa 61,4

80 km/h 4th (dB) BMW 61,8 Lexus 62,9 Alfa 65,7

100 km/h 5th (dB) Lexus 64,1 BMW 64,5 Alfa 66,3

(alfa is the 159 2,4 JTD modell)

Consumption - yes, I agree, that consumption is a bit higher than competition. But trust me, if you're driving between 2000 and 2600, it means that you use the power, and driving like this won't give you 40+mpg of any actual diesel car with 177hp.

Jamboo> on spritmonitor.de, 11 bmw 535d has the average 9,24l/100km and the IS220d 8 cars have the average of 7,42l/100km, so it is certainly not truth that the 535d has the same consumption as IS220d.

Again different opinions and maybe spec cars? I found the BMW and the Audi to be much quieter than the Lexus but the rep of the dealerships and reports of engine failures with the BMW coupled with over inflated prices meant it was a non starter. The 1st gear issue was raised with the dealer after the test drive who advised that it needs plenty of revs to get it going. Fine, but that doesn't help achieve the claimed MPG figures. Some cars have quirks, clearly the 1st gear is the IS220Ds. The S40 D5 I tested in comparrison was better comfort wise but the materiels used in the interior badly let the car down. I didn't opt for the IS250 as I assumed the 220 would be more economical. With funds required for other things the deisel was always going to be first choice. The IS220D is for me the best looking car in the class. No denying it. It's just a shame that it doesn't do just one thing perfectly instead of being mediocre at everything. I disagree that Lexus aren't about speed as well as luxury. The IS250 BHP is good enough to shame a lot of competition and the ISF is a clear statement of their intent. The reason Lexus doesn't get associated with performance is because the majority of the fleet is aimed at the elderly/company exec market. At 177BHP the IS220D is good enough to give early Octavia VRS a run for their money and with the 400nm of torque should leave a lot of cars standing on acceleration. It can do it but the ride is harshly compromised as a result. These are just my opnions of course. As said throughout, my previous dealership were never a problem. Jamboo uses the same Lexus delaership and doesn't have any problems. Maybe the fact they cocked up with the delivery standard of mine is makng them nervous every time they have to deal with me and as a consequence they keep fouling up. Then again I'd have thought they'd have ensured a double inspection took place for the next few visits to make sure everything was correct.

[Rillo]

This week's AUTOCAR has review of 8 diesels including IS220. Not pleasant reading if you are a fan I'm afraid....

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

It isn't, is it...

Blimey - 8th out of nine cars tested (Beaten by the new Laguna, Mondeo, Passatt BMW3, Merc C, new A4 and Alfa 159). At least it didn't come last...that was left for the Saab 93!

[Parthiban]

If there's one thing this thread has done, it's made me want to try an IS220d really badly! I hate diesels with a vengence, so it would automatically be on the back foot, but I've got to see if it's really as bad as it comes off on this site!

I've only ever driven one diesel, an A3 1.9TDI when my IS200 got stolen a few years ago, and I absolutely hated it. There wasn't a single thing about it that was good and made me miss the lex even more..............the worst part was that when I drove it the way I drive the IS (that gets me around 21mpg), I was only getting around 30-35mpg out of the A3, which is a much smaller car.

This is where I wonder why everyone whines about the economy so much, the audi had 110bhp, so why is 35mpg around town in an almost 2 ton car with 177bhp bad??!!!

But as I haven't driven one, I'm not going to imply anything about what anyone has said so far, but I'm sure as hell going to drive one at the first opportunity I get - may even request to borrow one for the day when I get my car serviced in a few months.........

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Parthiban - on the face of it it's not too bad...but I would ignore what anyone tells you OR what the books say...having said that....

Some of the cars are so far off the official test results for MPG, it seems un-believable (or so they say)....others are achieving it (or so they say)

Until Monday and prior to the new pipes/remap, I was getting 23ish mpg in town consistently, and at best 40 mpg on a motorway run at 70mph with Cruise and AC off. Since then I'm seeing 26-29 in town and 39 (!) on a run....it seems better in town than on a Motorway. I've done 270 miles this week (26 miles in town) from a full tank, and the trip shows me 38.5mpg as of this morning...and remember - I was getting mid-high 40's when the car was running in and until 5500 miles...even when fully loaded...I only ever crept up to 73mph once to over take...

You really have to drive it over a period of time and then decide. You have to be sure about the gearing, and whilst I've been told it's sorted, the 5th Injector problems, pipes Coking up...hopefully the newer ones are sorted out now...

Bottom line is that the Jury is still out on mine and I will perservere for a few weeks and then let the Garage know if it really has worked or not... Nuff said...like I say - go test drive one....only you can decide!!

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

VrrmVrrm - I'm gonna spit the Bone out with the Dummy :o but before I do, there is the point that if it is the Sulphuric content, then Toyota should have known how this engine would behave against the sulphur in the derv here...also - is the AVensis, RAV4 and Corolla Verso experiencing this issue? Not that I've seen...

Anyway - time for another Thread. Just a big thanks to all for an amazingly lively debate....nothing personal intended or taken (hopefully)...it's all in the pursuit of perfection (where have I heard that before)

NBLG - shucks mate - you've forced my closet doors open

[nate73]

Parthiban - on the face of it it's not too bad...but I would ignore what anyone tells you OR what the books say...having said that....

Some of the cars are so far off the official test results for MPG, it seems un-believable....

Until Monday and prior to the new pipes/remap, I was getting 23ish mpg in town consistently, and at best 40 mpg on a motorway run at 70mph with Cruise and AC off. Since then I'm seeing 26-29 in town and 39 (!) on a run....it seems better in town than on a Motorway. I've done 270 miles this week, and the trip shows me 38.5mpg as of this morning...and remember - I was getting mid-high 40's when the car was running in and until 5500 miles...even when fully loaded...

You really have to drive it over a period of time and then decide. You have to be sure about the gearing, and whilst I've been told it's sorted, the 5th Injector problems, pipes Coking up...hopefully the newer ones are sorted out now...

Bottom line is that the Jury is still out on mine and I will perservere for a few weeks and then let the Garage know if it really has worked or not... Nuff said...like I say - go test drive one....only you can decide!!

Jamboo, The problem of coking wont occur/re-occur if the correct fuel is used. It only takes 4000 to 5000 miles for components to become clogged. If you use either BP Ultimate or Shell v-power it will clean any contaminated part it comes into contact with over the same distance. I've now done over 2000 miles on v-power and there is a noticable reduction on vibration at lower rev's, so much in fact I can now even use 6th on the motorway!. I'm still holding judgement on the mpg issue until lexus have replaced the egr valve and other bits. I should theorectically see an improvement immediately.

On another note, guy I know dropped into the office this morning. He runs an accord 2.2ctdi and get 650 miles before the fuel light comes on - all motorway! He is a bit old mind - probably 65mph!