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thought i would say,about six weeks ago a friend of mine came over with his 320d the 163bhp and we were comparing notes.i sat in his car clicked onto his trip computer and it said 37mpg.also if you visit the audi forums there are many mixed veiws on fuel economy.

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thought i would say,about six weeks ago a friend of mine came over with his 320d the 163bhp and we were comparing notes.i sat in his car clicked onto his trip computer and it said 37mpg.also if you visit the audi forums there are many mixed veiws on fuel economy.

You have a point there - our A3s and A4s were only getting 37mpg as well. We've got a 2.0T A3 at the moment and the slight increase in fuel economy is more than compensated by the smoother petrol engine.

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We have similar background, but very different views on this matter. There most definitely is a special driving style for this car. I've driven a lot of diesels, VAG especially. Not a single one of them has been as delicate as the 220d. It has to driven between 1500 and 2000 rpm and full stops have to be avoided at all cost. Uphill driving, not to mention uphill accelerating, is poison. Keeping the momentum is essential, even more so than with any other car I've driven. That is extremely difficult in heavy urban traffic, which is why I don't recommend the 220d to anyone for that kind of use. But in extra-urban conditions, driving like I said, it returns proper mileage. Not top class, but not terrible either.

Finlex i am about to do something very british my friend ...... your background is in engineering is it ? you think what you have stated above is how a car should be driven or you accept that to get a decent economy then thats what you need to do ?

maybe this explains why most F1 teams are based in the UK because my friend you sound like the type of man who i wouldn't employ in an engineering company to sweep the floor .....

if you and anyone else agrees thats that the way i should drive my lexus (or any other car for that matter ) to return good fuel economy i pity you .

YOU ARE WRONG

thst way i think i could maybe get decent fuel economy out of a nice big bentley.......

its no wonder people think there isn't a problem if thats the driving style.

there are cars being used that return good economy the early ones don't , and ok i never stop and start .... err you don't understand england do you and i am sure you would quite simply be horrified by london traffic .

audi arn't

bmw arn't

ford arn't

and fwiw i went out in my neighbours 635d tonight to pop up the road with him ..... and we reste the trip and dis a normal driving stop start up and down hill run and it returned from cold 42mpg

TBH forget it .... you like your car and your happy driving in that fashion and i think you'll continue to enjoy it .

i'll never convince you its a poor diesel engine .

for those who get a good fuel economy from their diesel again thats great .

i don't

others don't

and not 1 single person who owns a diesel and has driven my car has said any different ... the economy is attrotious.

if anyone is in the south UK and wants to drive my car along say a 30 mile journey to show me how driving in a manor approved by the IAM and acheive 40+mpg feel free.

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thought i would say,about six weeks ago a friend of mine came over with his 320d the 163bhp and we were comparing notes.i sat in his car clicked onto his trip computer and it said 37mpg.also if you visit the audi forums there are many mixed veiws on fuel economy.

You have a point there - our A3s and A4s were only getting 37mpg as well. We've got a 2.0T A3 at the moment and the slight increase in fuel economy is more than compensated by the smoother petrol engine.

as i have said before .. i would love to see 37mpg ...... mixed driving this week has given a tank average over 300 miles of 29.9

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Next fall at the "mondial de l'auto 2008" motorshow in Paris, Lexus should introduce either the new IS convertible or the new IS coupe.

I have read in a magazine something that has been rumored for a while : there won't be any IC220d, and the reason is that the IS220d has no future.

The IS220d will remain as the only attempt by Lexus to fit a diesel engine in a Lexus chassis. I tend to believe this. It will then put an end to the endless arguments and discussions you have and we have as well over here on what we already consider as being the only major mistake Lexus made.

I was discussing the other day with the manager of a major Lexus dealership in west France, and he told me "that car is crap". Even hough things have (slightly) improved, the IS220d has ruined in two years a part of the "pursuit of perfection spirit" it took 28 years to Lexus to build.

Today in France, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz are more than happy, A4, Serie 3 and Class C sell like hotcakes.

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Harv,

you completely missed my point. You don't have to drive the way I described, but if you don't then you shouldn't be complaining on the poor fuel economy, either. The fact is that the 220d will not give you good mileage, if you don't drive it like that. If you won't, then it's your fault. If you can't, then you have the wrong car. In short, go get another car and stop whining.

So the secret behind the British engineering is denying the facts? Good luck, my mate.

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20.4mpg ........ my driving ? urban conditions? sorry i don't buy it . what you will also notice is that the complains come from the drivers of the earlier 220d's

Are you serious? I usually get 21mpg out of my IS200 auto with predominantly urban driving, how is 20.4 even possible out of the diesel? Have you contacted Lexus GB? It sounds like there's something seriously wrong with that car..........

We have similar background, but very different views on this matter. There most definitely is a special driving style for this car. I've driven a lot of diesels, VAG especially. Not a single one of them has been as delicate as the 220d. It has to driven between 1500 and 2000 rpm and full stops have to be avoided at all cost. Uphill driving, not to mention uphill accelerating, is poison. Keeping the momentum is essential, even more so than with any other car I've driven. That is extremely difficult in heavy urban traffic, which is why I don't recommend the 220d to anyone for that kind of use. But in extra-urban conditions, driving like I said, it returns proper mileage. Not top class, but not terrible either.

Think I need to agree with Harv here, I wouldn't be able to tolerate having to drive a car that required so much thought, driving would just be so much more tiring!

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We have similar background, but very different views on this matter. There most definitely is a special driving style for this car. I've driven a lot of diesels, VAG especially. Not a single one of them has been as delicate as the 220d. It has to driven between 1500 and 2000 rpm and full stops have to be avoided at all cost. Uphill driving, not to mention uphill accelerating, is poison. Keeping the momentum is essential, even more so than with any other car I've driven. That is extremely difficult in heavy urban traffic, which is why I don't recommend the 220d to anyone for that kind of use. But in extra-urban conditions, driving like I said, it returns proper mileage. Not top class, but not terrible either.

Think I need to agree with Harv here, I wouldn't be able to tolerate having to drive a car that required so much thought, driving would just be so much more tiring!

Agree on what? I'm not saying that it's a joy to drive the 220d in urban environment, but that is the way it needs to be driven to get proper mileage. If that sounds intolerable to you, then the 220d isn't the car for you, either. And that's just fine by me. But the 220d works for me. I'm able to not only tolerate, but enjoy driving it. That seems to be a crime around here, which I just don't get. If I don't find it uneconomical, tiring or troublesome, then it's okay to call me a moron and ignore everything I say? Quite frankly, that is what Harv seems to be doing.

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Agree on what? I'm not saying that it's a joy to drive the 220d in urban environment, but that is the way it needs to be driven to get proper mileage. If that sounds intolerable to you, then the 220d isn't the car for you, either. And that's just fine by me. But the 220d works for me. I'm able to not only tolerate, but enjoy driving it. That seems to be a crime around here, which I just don't get. If I don't find it uneconomical, tiring or troublesome, then it's okay to call me a moron and ignore everything I say? Quite frankly, that is what Harv seems to be doing.

Sorry mate, didn't mean to imply that at all, as long as you can still enjoy the car I've got no problem with it :)

Was just saying that if I had to work that hard, I wouldn't enjoy it at all so you're right, it isn't the car for me :blush:

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Sorry mate, didn't mean to imply that at all, as long as you can still enjoy the car I've got no problem with it :)

Was just saying that if I had to work that hard, I wouldn't enjoy it at all so you're right, it isn't the car for me :blush:

Well said. I too hope that everyone could be happy with their car. And that includes Harv.

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Sorry mate, didn't mean to imply that at all, as long as you can still enjoy the car I've got no problem with it :)

Was just saying that if I had to work that hard, I wouldn't enjoy it at all so you're right, it isn't the car for me :blush:

Well said. I too hope that everyone could be happy with their car. And that includes Harv.

if it gave 40mpg i would love it ....... it would be fine and i would except it not as good as the oposition but not awfull

36mpg whilst doing 200 miles with the cruis on in a diesel was awful plain and simple .

you have a sport diff and belive me i have driven the sport , the ratio's are so much better and tbh i belive thats a major plus for you ....

but if you belive that the way you described is the way to acheive fuel economy then i belive you would see 70mpg out of a VAG car or bmw or even a mercedes .... thats the issue

i don't care about consumption what i do care about is seemingly por consumption compared to others in its class , today we have tested an RS4 cabriolet audi yes it did 20mpg in a semi urban drive , but look what we get for that compromise ,and its similar mpfg to everything else thats simlar that we have looked at .

my wife won't be doing more than a 30 mile motorway commute so we can suffer 25mpg ....

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if it gave 40mpg i would love it ....... it would be fine and i would except it not as good as the oposition but not awfull

36mpg whilst doing 200 miles with the cruis on in a diesel was awful plain and simple .

you have a sport diff and belive me i have driven the sport , the ratio's are so much better and tbh i belive thats a major plus for you ....

but if you belive that the way you described is the way to acheive fuel economy then i belive you would see 70mpg out of a VAG car or bmw or even a mercedes .... thats the issue

i don't care about consumption what i do care about is seemingly por consumption compared to others in its class , today we have tested an RS4 cabriolet audi yes it did 20mpg in a semi urban drive , but look what we get for that compromise ,and its similar mpfg to everything else thats simlar that we have looked at .

my wife won't be doing more than a 30 mile motorway commute so we can suffer 25mpg ....

I tested a lot of cars the last time I was buying. Back then BMW 320d had the 163 hp diesel, Audi A4 the 140 hp, VW Passat the 170 hp, MB 200 CDI the 136 hp and Alfa 159 the 200 hp. Of these, BMW and Audi gave better fuel economy than the 220d, VW and MB about the same than Lexus, and Alfa was worse. I also tested both gearing for the 220d and found out that the sport version was, indeed, better.

Since then, I've refined my driving style a bit more to suit my car. I've tested some other cars, too. Audi A4 1.8 TFSI and IS 250 A are the last two. Audi returned 42 MPG in my typical A-road driving, where I usually get around 50 MPG with my car. IS 250 A returned 40.4 cruising at around 60, whereas my car gave 48.7 on the same exact route. Urban driving with 250 A showed 29.4 and my car, as mentioned, 31.4.

Those two are petrol, of course. The best I've got out of the Audi A4 1.9 TDI 130 hp I used to drive semi-regularly was around 55 MPG. Haven't tested the new common-rail Audi 2.0 TDI or the 177 hp BMW, but what I've read about them in the tests, I would expect those to give me 50+ tank averages and 55+ on a run. No more, no less. Been planning to give these a go for a while now, but just don't seem to get to it.

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Quite clearly, there are issues with the Diesel.

I chose the petrol over the diesel because I could see no advantage. One of my main clients has 1000+ cars in their fleet. (Not all Lex obviously). Well over 80% of the Lexus diesel drivers complain. (I know because I wrote the part of the intranet that tracks transport issues) The figures show it all too. You can see it on paper. It isn't coincidence that all those drivers have the same habits and showing the same issues time after time.

We have to compare cars because we have the option of driving/buying those cars. There has to be a degree of generality. whether it is conditions, driving style, etc. the diesel seems to give the lowest return unless you dramatically try to make it better and even then it hardly compares - you might be lucky and get a bit close.

You are right - there are many factors. Many factors that are more specific to the IS. Others cope fine with these other factors.

Allowing for its shortfalls does not make it good. Different cars have different driving styles but this is too much to accommodate.

I'm pleased it fits in with some peoples driving style and that is great. I really am glad about that. On the whole though, you have to agree that there are some fundamental issues or it wouldn't be receiving so much negative press.

People will badmouth if they don't get what they have been told they are buying. That seems perfectly justified to me. I'm glad I never bought one to be honest and I've had 3 IS's now so you can't suspect I'm not pro Lexus. Cars are the one area that people allow more fluctuation of the published figures too! This isn't a lower class car either.

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Geoffers,

That is exactly what I'm saying. The 220d can be competitive on fuel economy, when the conditions are right. When they are not, the mileage drops more violently than with most other diesels. I would say a lot of these less-than-optimal conditions are typical to urban environment. For extra-urban the 220d is fine, for urban it's not.

That might very well be the reason why I haven't heard a single complaint on fuel economy from a Finnish 220d driver. Extra-urban we have a lot, urban not that much. Lexus IS 220d, the expert's choice for rural driving! :P

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Finlex i am sorry if you think i have been overly agressive in my replys but this really did need to be said and you gave no argument that would stand up for the lexus being a good diesel (if anything you also confirmed how bad it is ) and you don't have the longer standar diff ratio which makes it worse.

Lexus have totally screwed up ,the cars DO NOT give the stated figures and never will its fundementally flawed , its a real real shame because i agree its a lovely car to look at ,the handling is nice (if slightly harsh over some surfaces) and it has r the most comfortable seats in its class by a big margin ..

I truely belive if lexus went back , forgot euro 5 , removed the 5th injector system remapped the engine and changed the gearbox and final drive ratio's they would have a 50mpg car that sold well .

They i can't go back , and thats why they will ditch the diesel they have hurt their brand more than they would ever have wanted to and this issn't the time they should have been doing that , stateside they are fine there is no diesel and thats a big market for them so lets hope they don't suffer to much ,

They are the only japanese car maker who has got close to a european feel inside their car as they all strive to be "german" just ask citreon their latest ads confirm this .

But i think lexus should be man enough to appologise and say we got it wrong , cause the happy users of this diesel are buy far in the minority ... great car ... very poor engine ... andthats VERY poor ... not just disapointing.

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Harv,

if you could look at things from even a slightly more objective perspective, you would see that there is basically just one flaw in the 220d engine: it doesn't return good mileage in heavy urban traffic. Why, I say WHY, can you not see that this isn't enough to make it a complete failure? When you say that the engine is a total lemon, you're basically saying that I and everyone else who bought one have screwed up. I scanned the field, made a thorough comparison, decided on the 220d and so far have not had any second thoughts. When you say that the 220d is a failure, you're also saying that my car is terrible and that I shouldn't be happy with it. When you keep repeating it over and over again, whilst I keep telling you that I really am happy with it, you're basically telling me that you know better than me. Can you not see how frustrating that is? It's not good for you, fine, but try to accept that it is good for me and many others, I'm sure.

It is ludicrous to think that any car manufacturer would go back to Euro 4 limits just to get better mileage. The diesel particulates and nitrogen oxides are very dangerous emissions. Euro 5 is a given, every manufacturer is going there and that's the way it should be.

You not being happy with your car isn't enough to convince me of any serious damage to the Lexus brand. Lexus has gotten a lot of new customers with the 220d and I know for a fact that many of them are very happy with their car. I can see you feel let down, but you really should try to keep yourself from making too coarse conclusions. Please accept that there are many perfectly happy 220d owners who don't share your visions of disaster.

One more thing. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the official fuel consumption figures are not manufacturers' claims. They are the results of an official, neutral test cycle. The 220d as well as every other car out there, really do return the official figures when driven in the way the official test is driven. The problem is that absolutely no one, not even me with my "impossible, unrealistic driving style", can drive like that. This is a serious problem with the test, not with the cars or manufacturers. Lexus is not alone in this and in my experience not even the worst off.

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Finlex ... when will you understand that you have a totally diferent gearing setup .... search the forum the lhd spec cars are not the same ,and again you have a sport anyway so you have totally different geaing

And what part of a 400 mile round trip using cruise control with no traffic at 75mph returning 36mpg don't you understand .... that was motorway .. no traffic at all didn't stop going up ,or back .... 36mpg .... is useless , did you not see the post above , fleet users reported 80% of drivers were unhappy with fuel economy . Do you not understand that thats alot of drivers who have issues , belive what you want but a uk non sport spec car in most situations is awful compared to it direct rivals .

Its not me .... its not jut a few people , its a large percentage of users .... and tell me this ... why does every courtesey car i get in have a tank average of 30 maybe 32 mpg ?

why?

maybe because thats what they do , and thats **** .

if lexus had said it would do 32 and thats what the competition got then no issue , but they don't and lexus havn't .... but you'll never understand whats been pointed out to you by various people on this thread and those who have simply given up saying it.

i am glad you get good economy and i am glad you enjoy your car .... trust me if on a run mine did 40+ mpg i would be happy too

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harv,i feel sure that your car has some problems because last summer i drove back from st.ives at 90mph to leicester and avg just over 40 mpg.i beleive that the low mpg on the loan cars could be down to the high urban useage coupled with the fact that most people cane the loan car.why not ask the dealer to loan you a car for a week for a true comparison.

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harv,i feel sure that your car has some problems because last summer i drove back from st.ives at 90mph to leicester and avg just over 40 mpg.i beleive that the low mpg on the loan cars could be down to the high urban useage coupled with the fact that most people cane the loan car.why not ask the dealer to loan you a car for a week for a true comparison.

the service manager said mines fine ..... i do not belive him.

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harv,i feel sure that your car has some problems because last summer i drove back from st.ives at 90mph to leicester and avg just over 40 mpg.i beleive that the low mpg on the loan cars could be down to the high urban useage coupled with the fact that most people cane the loan car.why not ask the dealer to loan you a car for a week for a true comparison.

the service manager said mines fine ..... i do not belive him.

then tell the dealer that you will have it inspected by a motor engineer preferably a fuel injection specialist.
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Finlex ... when will you understand that you have a totally diferent gearing setup .... search the forum the lhd spec cars are not the same ,and again you have a sport anyway so you have totally different geaing

And what part of a 400 mile round trip using cruise control with no traffic at 75mph returning 36mpg don't you understand .... that was motorway .. no traffic at all didn't stop going up ,or back .... 36mpg .... is useless , did you not see the post above , fleet users reported 80% of drivers were unhappy with fuel economy . Do you not understand that thats alot of drivers who have issues , belive what you want but a uk non sport spec car in most situations is awful compared to it direct rivals .

Its not me .... its not jut a few people , its a large percentage of users .... and tell me this ... why does every courtesey car i get in have a tank average of 30 maybe 32 mpg ?

why?

maybe because thats what they do , and thats **** .

if lexus had said it would do 32 and thats what the competition got then no issue , but they don't and lexus havn't .... but you'll never understand whats been pointed out to you by various people on this thread and those who have simply given up saying it.

i am glad you get good economy and i am glad you enjoy your car .... trust me if on a run mine did 40+ mpg i would be happy too

I understand perfectly well that I have a different gearing than yours. You don't seem to understand that the engine is the same! How many times in this thread alone have you said that the engine is an utter failure? Are you now saying that it's not the engine, but the standard gearing? Because on that I could just about agree with you.

Each and every 220d that I've driven (there are five) have had terrible tank averages on the BC when I've started driving them. Each have returned something entirely different when driven the way I drive. That goes to prove my point: the fuel economy of the 220d is very vulnerable to differencies in driving style. Not a good trait, but it doesn't bother me since I can get the mileage I expected. By the way: my expectations were not based on the official figures, because I know they are BS. Just look at the figures of the standard 220d and the Sport and you'll see my point.

I have not completely ruled out differencies between UK spec and other 220d's. I just don't know why there would be any. It doesn't fit in the Toyota/Lexus philosophy of using the same parts and technology where ever it's possible. And there are many UK owners who are reporting mileage similar to mine.

Earlier cars vs. later ones... Could be. Slight improvements on the production line are well in line with the manufacturer's philosophy. Much more likely than the geographic modifications theory.

Why do you say that I don't understand what has been pointed out to me? Have I said that there can't be economy related issues with 220d owners? I haven't and there are. There are also those like myself, who report reasonable figures. The reason for this split in opinions is what the members of this community have been relentlessly trying to find out. Theories that have been suggested there are plenty. I've already posted at least half a dozen of them in this thread. You haven't commented on these at all, which raises the question: Are you more interested in bashing the 220d than in trying to find out the reason for your troubles?

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it is the engine , and the gearing combined .... its quite simple

drive like miss daisy and you will see terrible economy

drive like a normal driver and you'll see something thats laughable .

there isn't a fix lexus can come up with so they'll drop the model and when they do it will be for no other reason than it being a money sapping failure .

And yes i am and will continue to bash the 220d till someone gives me one that i can drive normally and see 40+ mpg .....

you do and your happy .

the large majority of 220d drivers don't i am not willing to drive like you , that does not make me wrong for not adjusting to drive slower than my gran what it actually does is make the engine terrible !!!!

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it is the engine , and the gearing combined .... its quite simple

drive like miss daisy and you will see terrible economy

drive like a normal driver and you'll see something thats laughable .

there isn't a fix lexus can come up with so they'll drop the model and when they do it will be for no other reason than it being a money sapping failure .

And yes i am and will continue to bash the 220d till someone gives me one that i can drive normally and see 40+ mpg .....

you do and your happy .

the large majority of 220d drivers don't i am not willing to drive like you , that does not make me wrong for not adjusting to drive slower than my gran what it actually does is make the engine terrible !!!!

I guess that answers my question... I don't understand your motive, but maybe I don't need to. Let's just leave it with that.

I regularly get 50+ MPG driving in what is now my very normal driving style. That is about 10 percent less than I would with the very best diesels in the class. Not being the top pick for everything is not the same as being a failure, in my book.

I'll believe that Lexus is dropping diesels when I see it. It is a huge market segment, one that I can't believe they could afford to drop. Toyota is not going to, that's for sure, and when there are diesel engines being developed in-house, there is no sense in not using them for the Lexus line-up as well.

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what i am trying to get across to you is that i have had many cars that have had "special" driving styles to get best from them , they all are used for circuit racing , and MPG has never been high on their feature list .... most people would say the handling was twitchy and dangerous , and would struggle to see the best from them .

They are built to a purpose

However your average mass market fleet diesel engine should be able to nowadays produce 40mpg driven by any monkey .

and yes i would accept 10% down on the market leaders but have a search and even those claiming good mpg are saying it 38 to 39 on a run .... still way off 10% down.

my motive is clear .. for lexus to look and acknowlage the issues and try and have dialogue with there customers to resolve it .

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