Is220d Sport Faster Than Is250 Auto?

[Roonaldo]

I mentioned this in the "New Model IS 220d" thread only a couple of days ago. Naturally I was told I was "misguided" and talking "absolute rubbish". I'm sure you will, too. SOP on this forum.

You have to adjust to the driving style of a diesel or petrol. Yes if you are travelling at say 40 mph and floor the petrol auto it doesn't seem to do much. I had a C270 CDI before that and did notice it when I booted the petrol. So you have to use the gears and rev higher. But the sound - ooh it's like comparing champagne to cheap lambrusco when you rev the petrol. A beautiful creamy v6 growl as opposed to a weedy unrefined coarse sound. That's what I'm talking.

The petrol is quicker PERIOD. Get over it. Torque is nonsense.

Listen to yourself

[Roonaldo]

Finlex sounds like one of those Passat TDI drivers that says "Hey my TDI has more torque than an M3 so it must be quicker".

Complete tosh.

Ha ha ha !!! :D

Yeah, very funny...well done

[FinLex]

What an absolute joy it is to discuss about cars with such experts as GaryC. Torque is nonsense? No, such claims are nonsense.

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Just drive a diesel without a Turbo, and you'll see how important Torque is! the Turbo helps in that area like u won't beleeeeeve

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Just drive a diesel without a Turbo, and you'll see how important Torque is! the Turbo helps in that area like u won't beleeeeeve. It's a combo between Torque, gearing and BHP, which is why a petrol sports car would be quicker!

[Roonaldo]

which is why a petrol sports car would be quicker!

Tell that to the Audi R10 :P

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

which is why a petrol sports car would be quicker!

Tell that to the Audi R10 :P

Yeah but...that's a racing car, not a standard ports car!! That R10 is awesome...and Audi still make incredible road diesels too...

[GaryC]

Still don't agree with the 220d comments. I have driven a few 3.0 v6 diesels.

Audi A6 3.0 TDI, Audi A4 3.0 TDI, BMW 530d and BMW 535d and Mercedes C320 CDI.

Of all of these the only one that felt like a rocket ship was the Mercedes C320 CDI - wow that flew.

Now that is much quicker than an IS250 no question but it's 0-60 in 6.9 secs.

Different kettle of fish from 4 cylinder 2 litre and 2.2 litre diesels - no offence.

[dgman]

gary c,the trouble is that you have made yourself look like a proper jonney buy saying that"torque is nonsense".

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

This thread takes the larf a long way...

Anyone who's driven a 530d and Audi Variable vanes 3.0TDi knows it is much much quicker than an IS - 250 or 220d- not ISF of course!! The 1st gear is "short" in all of these, but you hardly notice that...when you look at the speedo and see you have just cracked 0 to 30mph quicker than you can blink!

530d - does 0-60 in 6.8s (manual or auto) and has 500NM of torque - that's like 400 lb/ft in imperial talk. There really is no competition...there is hardly any flatspot - it start to deliver this torque from just over 1200rpm, so theres hardly any lag and it feels instantaneous.

Infact even a 525d (same engine as 530d, less output) is much quicker than either IS - 0-60 in 7.6s (7.7 for auto) and 400NM Torque - same as 220d. But the extra 20 BHP (over 10% more) makes the difference, as does the normal gearing and torque from 1300 RPM...and the 535d (same engine with twin turbo's) is just in a different league as the 1st turbo kicks in at Idle speed ...

In Steptronic mode the 525d will comfortably take 6th at 55mph, at around 1100 RPM. The Steptronics don't try and change you down to 5th (protection feature) until you drop to below 1000rpm - so I reckon 50mph in 6th will work, though I've not tried it yet (still sort of running in...)

The other thing I've noticed is this:

Take an IS220d. Leave in neutral, engine on and handbrake up (!). Idle speed. Hit the accelerator...it takes an age for the revs to build - almost a delayed reaction...and remember the turbo isn't really needed as it's not pulling anything other than it's own pistons...

Do the same in any IS250, BMW or Audi diesel and the needle sweeps around immediately...almost petrolesque in the diesels...

That my friends is where one of the problems with the drive is in a IS220d - relatively speaking of course - then when you add the gearing, narrow power delivery etc, you do get this feeling of impeded performance...looking objectively, there is no point in trying to defend it. Just try it and compare it...and that is the reason why the IS250 starts off so quickly compared to the 220d. The engine response is there...this is why the IS250 drivers believe they have a faster car...

And GaryC - Torque is everything...like I've said before, on a rolling start the IS220d is quick...assuming one knows when to change gears on the IS220d, which takes some practice...

I know it's easy for me to chuck eggs now that I'm in Bavarialand, but I do still miss some elements of that Lexus!!! Namely the toys...

[GaryC]

gary c,the trouble is that you have made yourself look like a proper jonney buy saying that"torque is nonsense".

There's no trouble at all mate - you can think what you like.

Most people go solely off torque figures and think the higher the torque the faster the car. Rubbish !

My Merc C270 diesel had 370Nm of torque. My IS250 has 252Nm of torque.

So which one is faster ? My IS250 is much quicker in all cases IF YOU DRIVE IT PROPERLY.

The pull actually feels quicker as well and it so swift and smooth through the gears...IF YOU DRIVE IT PROPERLY.

In fact a few weeks ago I was following a C270 CDI round a roundabout and turning right onto a motorway slip road.

As I'd expected he would, the Merc put his foot to the floor to test his huge TORQUE and take me to the cleaners - so he caned it up the slip road.

I put my car in sport mode and dropped it into second gear and flew past him. He couldn't keep up and the engine sound was lovely whereas all he was doing was chucking out loads of black smoke (and running out of steam at 4000 revs).

I'm not saying the IS250 is the fastest car in the world but it beat my old car hands down with the higher torque and it did it gracefully.

Look I know you are just being protective of your nice little car but if you are really wanting to drive an executive car (which is what owning a Lexus is all about isn't it) then you wouldn't really want a car that's a manual or a diesel.

What exec wants a car chucking out a load of black smoke and a course unrefined engine sound ?

That's a side issue anyway - my point was about torque being nonsense. Applies to the case above it IS NONSENSE !

[GaryC]

The engine response is there...this is why the IS250 drivers believe they have a faster car...

But it is a faster car.... all the figures say that APART FROM TORQUE (which is nonsense).

[GaryC]

And GaryC - Torque is everything...

Yeah right mate.....torque is everything. Yeah right, whatever you say mate...

BMW M3...

Engine Size 2990 cc

Cylinders 6

0-60 mph 5.8 s

Power Output 286 bhp

Valves 24

Torque 320 Nm

Top Speed 155 mph

Mercedes C270 CDI...

Engine Size 2685 cc

Cylinders 5

0-60 mph 8.8 s

Power Output 170 bhp

Valves 20

Torque 370 Nm

Top Speed 140 mph

[Parthiban]

Just to add my 2ps worth, it's not quite as clear cut as described above..............I do totally agree that in overtaking circumstances from 50-70 etc, diesels usually have far more punch than the equivalent petrol if they are in the right gear, and this is all down to the extra torque.

However this isn't the whole story as the amazingly high torque levels that diesels provide are usually over a very narrow band, whereas the petrols provide lower torque but over a much larger range of the rev band.

As an example, using stats off the Mercedes website:

C320CDI: 510Nm from 1600-2800rpm

C280: 300Nm from 2500-5000rpm

C350: 350Nm from 2400-5000rpm

Not only does this make the car more fun to drive as the power is more accessible, it is also faster except in those specific circumstances diesel drivers always talk about which is pretty much just overtaking on a motorway...............

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

This could become the most monumental w1lli waving competition ever...

GaryC - read my post #30 - it's a combination between BHP, Torque etc that gives you performance and forward momentum... It's horses for courses of course as Parthiban says. Different animals so this argument will never cease until somone takes one of each to the track...Petrol delivers les torque but spreads it across the rev band.

Also - IF you actually bother to drive a modern Variable Vane Turbo charged diesel, then it is quicker in any gear at any speed. The Torque delivery is much flatter. If you want a good comparison to the IS250, just go an drive the new A4 2.0TDi. It might not rev as much as a 250, but it feels much faster than a manual IS250 which in typical VVti form doesn't deliver anything until you get past 4500RPM. You feel you have to constantly thrash a VVti ptrol to get any decent performance (ECT or not).

You put yer foot down in a modern VV diesel and it just flies...no lag (or very little) and no nonsense.

Both the Lexus IS220d Torque delivery and that of the 270CDi is like that from the era of Helen of Troy...things have moved on a lot thanks to Audi and BMW (on the whole). Lexus won't even make an Auto diesel - like you rightly say who wants an executive car that's a manual??? I did - but never again! That 270CDi engine was introuced back in 2003...or was it earlier? And they haven't really changed it much in 5 years!!

Hopefully for Lexus the new facelift will bring some sensibility to this.

One final thing - food for thought...the Diesel R10 always beats the petrol heads at Le Mans....

[84Stoney]

Oh dear, what a funny one!

I don't know where you get your info from:

Most people go solely off torque figures and think the higher the torque the faster the car.

Says who? Never heard that in my life.

Look I know you are just being protective of your nice little car but if you are really wanting to drive an executive car (which is what owning a Lexus is all about isn't it) then you wouldn't really want a car that's a manual or a diesel.

What exec wants a car chucking out a load of black smoke and a course unrefined engine sound ?

That's a side issue anyway - my point was about torque being nonsense. Applies to the case above it IS NONSENSE !

Maybe an Exec who appriciates the joy of driving, and the fact that the manual is quicker (for the IS250, as per stats), not all Execs are too lazy to change their own gears!

Many 220Ds will be company cars and accountants need to be satisfied.

Tell me this "GaryC": If Torque is nonsense and means nothing, how quick would your car be if it had, oh I dont know, 50Nm of torque?

I appreciate that you are saying that Torque ALONE does not neccessarily make a quick car, but it is a major contributing factor. FACT.

This guy understands what makes a car fast:

It's a combo between Torque, gearing and BHP.

I'm not defending the Diesel, I have a long standing and irrational hatred of oilers. I'm just defending the usefulness of Torque and general common sense!

Carol Shelby once famously said "Horsepower sells cars, Torque wins races." Would you tell him Torque is nonsense? Do you have a greater understanding of engines than Shelby?

Didn't think so.

(If you do not know who Carol Shelby is, try Wikipedia, while there, look up "Torque"!)

[Parthiban]

You put yer foot down in a modern VV diesel and it just flies...no lag (or very little) and no nonsense.

This is what seems to be the case with a lot of modern diesels, haven't tried them but I'd definitely like to have a go - the main one being the 335d with it's two different sized turbos.............the stats make it sound like a monster but I'd love to see how driveable it is. I'm pretty sure that it's the reason why they went for forced induction (a big BMW no no) on the 335i instead of a bigger engine as a normally aspirated engine just wouldn't be able to cut it :shutit:

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

You put yer foot down in a modern VV diesel and it just flies...no lag (or very little) and no nonsense.

This is what seems to be the case with a lot of modern diesels, haven't tried them but I'd definitely like to have a go - the main one being the 335d with it's two different sized turbos.............the stats make it sound like a monster but I'd love to see how driveable it is. I'm pretty sure that it's the reason why they went for forced induction (a big BMW no no) on the 335i instead of a bigger engine as a normally aspirated engine just wouldn't be able to cut it :shutit:

Parthiban,

I've driven both a GS450h and a 535d. On paper they seem similar on the basic stats.

The difference though is in the 535d's torque. It IS everything! Compared to my new car (same engine) the 535d is a monster and I would have never thought about a BMW until I drove that. It has this surge of power from takeoff like I've certainly never felt before, and when you want to overtake t's like a direct connection between the engine and the throtle. Very Porsche Carera 4S like, but even more brutal at low revs (whereas the Porkr needs lots of revs). No hesitancy - no matter what gear. It is awesome. I've never driven a 335d or a 335i, but I can only imagine....

BMW are doing the Merc "thing" now - limited few engines, tuned for different purposes and forced induced at a price as apropriate!! Must save them £m's in development, assembly and component logistics.

I know that there are lots of Petrol heads who hate diesels, but believe you me, the newest generation of turbo diesels are just so driveable, and quick!

[Parthiban]

I've got no doubt they're good, the stats are very impressive and reviews always say about how driveable they are..............I hate diesels with a passion, but if I ever had to swap to the darkside, I'm pretty sure the 335/535d would have to be my weapon of choice............

This does confuse me though, now development has moved on so much and turbo lag is not so much of an issue anymore, why not produce more FI petrol engines?

Just looking at the figures for the 335d vs. the 335i, both 3ltr turbocharged units, I'm pretty sure the 335i would waste the diesel at every opportunity. Obviously ignoring economy for a bit, the petrol is also lighter and surely less nose heavy so would handle better too............I really don't get it to be honest

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

I've got no doubt they're good, the stats are very impressive and reviews always say about how driveable they are..............I hate diesels with a passion, but if I ever had to swap to the darkside, I'm pretty sure the 335/535d would have to be my weapon of choice............

This does confuse me though, now development has moved on so much and turbo lag is not so much of an issue anymore, why not produce more FI petrol engines?

Just looking at the figures for the 335d vs. the 335i, both 3ltr turbocharged units, I'm pretty sure the 335i would waste the diesel at every opportunity. Obviously ignoring economy for a bit, the petrol is also lighter and surely less nose heavy so would handle better too............I really don't get it to be honest

You've got to try them mate. In Lexus terms, the performance differential is like GS00 v GS450h. Both are quick enuff but it's the hybrid with the torque of the Electric motor which is smooth yet blistering.

This whole Diesel v Petrol thing is now to close to call. Whether you're a petrol head wanting high revving octane induced power, or lazy low revving cetane....

I have compared a 530i (272bhp) with the 535d (286bhp), and in any gear at any speed the 535d absolutely blows the 530i away. Everything from the sound of engine (almost V8 worble) to the "punch" in the back when you accelerate. It has 580NM of torque in the "zone" where both Turbo's are on song compared to an IS220d which is impressive enough with 400NM. I know that some won't like hearing this, but in this case Torque is what provides that thrust and momentum - so much so that you just run out of road. The car chassis is so well balanced that you don't notice any weight issue at all - at least not on a couple of hours worth of testing.

I suspect that a 335i will be quicker from a standing start (it has over 300hp) and will rev to 7000 RPM like a sports car whereas the 335d will have the lowend overtaking prowess of a muscle car...in that case it depends what you want - lazy low end grunt or high revving stuff....

We did look at a 335i Auto Sport saloon, with all the toys - satnav, leather etc - 6 moths old and £29k. Didn't drive it though as I wanted a 5 Series M Sport.

It really is horses for courses and I absolutely did NOT want a diesel this time. I drove several 5's - all Petrol (523/525/530). They all performed well and were eonomical - but one drive in the 525d and it was obvious which was more entertaining to drive - The Diesel. The combo of Torque and gearing (even with the Auto box) sealed it, so it won!

[Parthiban]

It really is horses for courses and I absolutely did NOT want a diesel this time. I drove several 5's - all Petrol (523/525/530). They all performed well and were eonomical - but one drive in the 525d and it was obvious which was more entertaining to drive - The Diesel. The combo of Torque and gearing (even with the Auto box) sealed it, so it won!

That really is interesting, when I find time I'm definitely going to have a go

[javadude]

The diesel Seats seem to be doing well in the BTCC...