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Plane Lost


Y2Kanjar
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as it went into the ocean everyone will be dead - forget what u see on the "safety on board cards" there is no getting out of that one.....

appears they may have flown into a thunderstorm - a big no-no, but of course its all speculation at the mo as is the sudden loss from radar which tends to sugest something more ominous

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yea hitting the ocean at that speed etc would be like hitting a brick wall??

i've been through/close to a thunderstorm in a plane before and scared the poop out of me!! could see the lightning bolts from the window and smell the ozone from the static - scary stuff. question i have though, and maybe rob could answer this, if a plane was to get hit by lightning, surely it would act like a Faraday cage and therefore not compromise any of the integrals of the plane??

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Condolences to the families of the passengers and crew.

I've been on 2 flights where the plane has been hit by lightening 1 into Greece where the plane filled with smoke and we made an emergency landing in Athens and more recently on the approach to Prague when there was a big flash the plane jolted and we made the landing on another runway to avoid going around again.

Being born on Friday the 13th doesn't help!

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I dont get how they just loose a plane though, the flight paths are surely set and tracked, so then when it randomly went of radar doesnt it flag up somewhere, at traffic control at either the destination or the place they've just left ?

All seems a little weird.

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Don't all planes have GPS now though?

It's really sad though, I suppose planes must be designed to withstand lightening strikes but you never know what state the plane was in, have they found anything at all yet or is it still completely missing?

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Don't all planes have GPS now though?

It's really sad though, I suppose planes must be designed to withstand lightening strikes but you never know what state the plane was in, have they found anything at all yet or is it still completely missing?

Well I'm sure they'd have GPS or similar, yes, but that would only mean they knew themselves where they were, not that anyone else did.

Experts have said that lightning strikes are entirely routine, and don't bring planes down. But some sort of multiple failure was involved. There now appears to be more info on it in a Brazilian newspaper, see here. That begins to make it sounds more like a structural problem perhaps caused by being in a violent storm ?

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yea hitting the ocean at that speed etc would be like hitting a brick wall??

i've been through/close to a thunderstorm in a plane before and scared the poop out of me!! could see the lightning bolts from the window and smell the ozone from the static - scary stuff. question i have though, and maybe rob could answer this, if a plane was to get hit by lightning, surely it would act like a Faraday cage and therefore not compromise any of the integrals of the plane??

yes thats a fairly accurate discription, although damage would occur at the entry and exit points as normally there is some rivet damage but that is a minor point and on its own wouldnt be a huge cause for concern.

there is also some localised paint discolouration as u would expect.

if can effect the aircraft systems but that is not so common - eg flickering screens, radio loss for a short period etc.

lightening strikes are common and are really nothing to worry about.

it is true that the aircraft can not be tracked position wise whilst in mid atlantic due to radar limitations but they can still have data and voice communications via satelite or HF radio comms.

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yea hitting the ocean at that speed etc would be like hitting a brick wall??

i've been through/close to a thunderstorm in a plane before and scared the poop out of me!! could see the lightning bolts from the window and smell the ozone from the static - scary stuff. question i have though, and maybe rob could answer this, if a plane was to get hit by lightning, surely it would act like a Faraday cage and therefore not compromise any of the integrals of the plane??

yes thats a fairly accurate discription, although damage would occur at the entry and exit points as normally there is some rivet damage but that is a minor point and on its own wouldnt be a huge cause for concern.

there is also some localised paint discolouration as u would expect.

if can effect the aircraft systems but that is not so common - eg flickering screens, radio loss for a short period etc.

lightening strikes are common and are really nothing to worry about.

it is true that the aircraft can not be tracked position wise whilst in mid atlantic due to radar limitations but they can still have data and voice communications via satelite or HF radio comms.

Yeah surely if there was a problem and they we're going down, would they not have radioed to the nearest airport where ever that may be with there problems etc.

It was an Air france plane though so they were probably on strike last time it was in for an overhaul/service LoL

Im sure all will become clear one day when all the information is allowed out to the public.

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using normal radio comms (HF) the communication point would have been stockholm radio which is a relay point, or the next planned destination which was senegal/morocco but having many experiences with morrocan and senegalise comms its a bit eratic.

they could have contacted anywhere in the world via the satellite system so its very strange that they did not unless the situation was so extreme comms is the last thing on their mind and that i can perfectly understand.

acc to acars (Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System... which sends constant data transmission) there was loss of cabin pressure, an electrical malfunction - which means nothing on its own i wish to add, and some reports mention a steep dive but this is to be clarified.

i find it a little bit strange that NO debris or trace has been found so far but it is an exhaustive task and is the search for a needle in a hay stack.

i think they will be extremly lucky to ever recover the data recorders TBH..... i really hope they do as time is running out due to the 30 day pinger limit.

but also stranger is the sos beacon which is g force/water activated and it floats and many have an automatic release mechanism but unsure of the system on the 330-200 (ill have to look at it when next back in work) but no good to anyone if its trapped inside the fuselage

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Details have emerged of the moments leading up to the disappearance of flight AF 447 with 228 people on-board, with error messages reportedly suggesting the plane was flying too slowly and that two key computers malfunctioned.

Flight data messages provided by an Air France source show the precise chronology of events of flight AF 447 before it plummeted into the sea 400 miles off Brazil on Monday.

These indicate that the pilot reported hitting tropical turbulence at 3am (BST), shortly before reaching Senegalese airspace. It said the plane had passed through tall, dense cumulonimbus thunderclouds.

At this stage, according to a source close to the investigation cited by Le Monde, the Airbus A330-200's speed was "erroneous" - either too fast or too slow. Each plane has an optimal speed when passing through difficult weather conditions, which for unknown reasons, had not been reached by flight AF 447.

Airbus is expected to issue recommendations today to all operators of the A330 model to maintain appropriate thrust levels to steady the plane's flight path in storms.

At 3.10am, the messages show the pilot was presented with a series of major failures over a four-minute period before catastrophe struck, according to automatic data signals cited by the Sao Paulo newspaper, le Jornal da Tarde.

At this time, the automatic pilot was disconnected – either by the pilot or by the plane's inbuilt security system, which flips to manual after detecting a serious error.

It is unclear whether the pilot wanted to manually change course to avoid a dangerous cloud zone – an extremely difficult manoeuvre at such high altitude.

At the same moment, another message indicates that the "fly-by-wire" electronic flight system which controls the wing and tail flaps shifted to "alternative law" – an emergency backup system engaged after multiple electricity failures. This system enables the plane to continue functioning on minimum energy but reduces flight stability. An alarm would have sounded to alert the cabin crew to this.

at 3:12, another message indicates that two essential computers providing vital information on altitude, speed and flight direction ceased functioning correctly.

Two new messages at 3.13am report electricity breakdowns in the principal and auxiliary flight computers.

At 3.14am, a final message reads "cabin in vertical speed", suggesting a sudden loss of cabin pressure, either the cause or the consequence of the plane breaking up in mid-air.

Despite the precise details, sources close to the investigation contested the chronology and denied that the two computers providing altitude, speed and directional data malfunctioned.

The suggestion that the pilot gradually lost control of the plane appears to counter reports that the plane exploded in mid-air.

These were lent more weight today after a Spanish pilot in the vicinity at the time reported seeing an "intense white flash".

"Suddenly we saw in the distance a strong and intense flash of white light, followed by a downward, vertical trajectory which broke up into six segments," the chief pilot of an Air Comet plane from Lima to Madrid told the Spanish newspaper, El Mundo. He has reported his observations to investigators.

Some experts have supported the theory that the plane exploded, given the wide area where debris has been found.

However, Brazil's defence minister, Nelson Jobim, said an explosion was "improbable" given the 13-mile trail of kerosine spotted on the sea. "If we have fuel slicks, it's because it didn't burn," he said.

Paul-Louis Arslanian, the head of the French air accident bureau in charge of the investigation, also said there were other possible reasons for wide debris area, such as high winds and choppy seas.

Yesterday he warned against hasty "speculation" and said that the search would take time.

Four naval vessels and a tanker are in the area around 400 miles off Brazil's northeastern coast. Some 11 spotter planes are searching for more debris, after finding a seat and a 23-foot metal object thought to be part of the fuselage. A French mini-submarine will arrive in the zone next week.

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wouldnt rely too much on newspaper reports as well known to be inaccurate

example:

Airbus is expected to issue recommendations today to all operators of the A330 model to maintain appropriate thrust levels to steady the plane's flight path in storms.

true and this has been transmitted already and is a reminder of the limitations and procedures

At this time, the automatic pilot was disconnected – either by the pilot or by the plane's inbuilt security system, which flips to manual after detecting a serious error.

not stricty true.. yes it does disconnect if there is an error but it will also disconnect in heavy turbulance when it can not keep the AC in the predetermined range of operation

It is unclear whether the pilot wanted to manually change course to avoid a dangerous cloud zone – an extremely difficult manoeuvre at such high altitude.

no need to manally disconnet the AP Auto Pilot to change course, just dial in a deviation, and the system does the rest, its not a difficult manouver and altitude was within the operating scope for the a330.

At the same moment, another message indicates that the "fly-by-wire" electronic flight system which controls the wing and tail flaps shifted to "alternative law" – an emergency backup system engaged after multiple electricity failures. This system enables the plane to continue functioning on minimum energy but reduces flight stability. An alarm would have sounded to alert the cabin crew to this.

complete crap....... no such thing as wing and tail flaps in this sense - ailerons and elevators yes. alternative law is in reference to the autopilot disconnect and removes the flight envelope protection - the pilot has manual control and can move the flight controls out of the protection limit. NO chime sounds to alert cabin crew.... the alert would be for the flight deck crew via ECAM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECAM

3:12, another message indicates that two essential computers providing vital information on altitude, speed and flight direction ceased functioning correctly. Two new messages at 3.13am report electricity breakdowns in the principal and auxiliary flight computers.

there are 3 flight computers and they constantly check each other for errors and have dedicated power supplies, elec breakdown in all 3 computers raises serious questions but the error message on its own means nothing as its not in context to "what broke down

At 3.14am, a final message reads "cabin in vertical speed", suggesting a sudden loss of cabin pressure, either the cause or the consequence of the plane breaking up in mid-air.

vertical speed doesnt always mean a cabin pressure loss - i wont comment further on this as im unsure of the the other possible meanings

Despite the precise details, sources close to the investigation contested the chronology and denied that the two computers providing altitude, speed and directional data malfunctioned.

tthey are general error messages that need further investigation - think of them like OBD code faults

Some experts have supported the theory that the plane exploded, given the wide area where debris has been found.

no debris has been found

i wouldnt belive too much of what has been said on the news stations - listen to the official news conferences and the info from there - far too much specualtion going on with this but it is to be expected

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Some bodies found too now, apparently (according to BBC).

this doesnt look very good.

did u think the plane was not in the sea??

its a very tragic accident and i really hope they uncover the full reasons behind it.

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Some bodies found too now, apparently (according to BBC).

this doesnt look very good.

did u think the plane was not in the sea??

its a very tragic accident and i really hope they uncover the full reasons behind it.

yeah i thought it was but thoght there would have been some survivors.

i agree very tragic accident.

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Some bodies found too now, apparently (according to BBC).

this doesnt look very good.

did u think the plane was not in the sea??

its a very tragic accident and i really hope they uncover the full reasons behind it.

yeah i thought it was but thoght there would have been some survivors.

i agree very tragic accident.

survivors?? even if some had survived an impact like that (which is VERY unlikely) the sheer cold will have killed any others within a few hours i'd suspect mate.

just hope lessons can maybe be learnt somehow from all this?

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Some bodies found too now, apparently (according to BBC).

this doesnt look very good.

did u think the plane was not in the sea??

its a very tragic accident and i really hope they uncover the full reasons behind it.

yeah i thought it was but thoght there would have been some survivors.

i agree very tragic accident.

survivors?? even if some had survived an impact like that (which is VERY unlikely) the sheer cold will have killed any others within a few hours i'd suspect mate.

just hope lessons can maybe be learnt somehow from all this?

didnt think about that so realistically thinking there would be no survivors at all.

hope they do learn a lesson from it.

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no mate, i doubt it very much. i'd be absoloutly amazed if anyone survived the actual crash to be honest mate, as unfortunate as that may sound.

flying is commonly regarded as the safest form of transport, but unfortunately its when things go wrong (which they rarely do in such a big way) that the sheer cost of lives gets into triple figures - i *think* thats the reason the new double decker airbus had a seat number restriction???

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