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So Have I Been Censored On Here?


scythe
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Though I always enjoy reading this forum, I don't often post on here, mainly because I don't really have very much to say. There are posters here with a vast knowledge about these cars that I simply don't have, plus there is a natural and gentle pressure against those with cars that aren't Mk4 LS400s. I've had a Mk3, a couple of 430s and now am more than happy with my current 460, which I've had for 5 years, and will probably have for another 5 years on. Also, and this may just be a bit of paranoia, when I have made posts it very often just brings the thread to an end. No one else replies, and the thread dies! However, as I said, I do like reading what is here.

Last night, however, there was a post put on by a Lexus sales executive, basically just putting a few pictures of one of the new LS460s in his showroom. I'd got no problems with this, and I know that people on here love pictures, so I had absolutely no objection to him or his post. However, because he works within the Lexus network, and may have some influence on those above him, I decided to take the time to make a full comment:

Hi Tim,

Please don't think I'm having a go at you. It's not my intention to do that; I do think it's very up-front of you to come on here to try to sell cars, and I do admire that. My problems are with the new
LS. Normally I'd let something like this go, but you work as part of the Lexus chain, and maybe there is some chance that people will listen to you.

First thing is the looks. Some people do buy a LS to look the part, and they do indeed buy the gold ones that stand out, much like the one you've got there. Maybe they will appreciate the look of the front. There are however many other people who buy dark colours (not black - that stands out almost as much as gold) such as blue and green, and maybe a subdued red. These are people who buy a lexus for themselves, and not as a thing for other people to look at. I suspect most people like that don't want a car with a grotesque front.

Second is the equipment level. What has become of the precrash at the front, that prepares you in advance for an accident? The precrash at the rear, that protects you against whiplash? Does the car still have adaptive cruise, or has the radar at the front that was part of the precrash also gone? What about the double-action lane keep, and the infra red cameras that were part of the precrash? The car is specified no better than a basic LS460. There is no equivalent LS460 SE-L, which was by far your best seller back five or so years ago.

Third, following on from the second, is the price. For it's basic specification, with, what is now also old technology, the car is considerably overpriced.


I'm sure you understand the demographics of Lexus buyers - I don't, partly because they are so few and far between. The ones I've met have been knowledgeable and thoughtful, and not easily persuaded to
part with their money.

It appears to me that Lexus is trying to kill this car in the UK. Lexus could accept that not everyone wants a hybrid, especially one that doesn't really seem to save money, and that people do want a fully specified petrol engine car. It could also cut the price and vastly increase turnover. But it seems to me as though this car is priced so as not to sell, and to enable Lexus to eventually withdraw it and perhaps Lexus itself from Europe.


I think it would be a terrible shame if this happened, especially for many loyal Lexus owners.


I know you've got to shift this car, and I wish you well with that. I hope though that when you have internal meetings with Lexus, that you'll remember some of what I've said here, and pass upwards some of my feelings.

: o )

This morning I looked to see what comments people had made, but found that the whole thread has disappeared. I searched to see if it was somewhere else, but it isn't. The whole thread has gone.

I seem to have ended this particular thread with a bang. Are my views too extreme? I've seen cars for sale removed, but whoever does the removing usually retains the rest of the thread, explaining that the person should be a gold member. Have I been censored? And if so, by whom?


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I'm guessing it was removed as it was an advertisement. Nothing wrong with you expressing your views. That's part and parcel of the joy of the forum!

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I'd agree with jp. it may have been pulled by the moderators.

Maybe one of them who knows will explain all.

There is certainly nothing wrong with expressing your point of view....precisely what a forum is at heart.

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Whether your thread was or was not against forum rules you should have been told, in advance, that your thread was being pulled and perhaps told to transfer it to 'sales' after becoming a Gold Member

I have no say whatsoever as to how this forum is run but I do think that before removing someones thread they should be told. The only acception to this is if the post/thread could be consider as libel/slander

However in law its best NOT to moderate a blog as to do so means you lose the protection in law now allowed to forum/blog owners. You should ONLY remove posts/threads if asked to by the subject otherwise leave it alone

See here http://www.gcdtech.com/blog/should-you-moderate-comments-on-your-website/

To comply remove ALL suggestion that a website is moderated

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Whether your thread was or was not against forum rules you should have been told, in advance, that your thread was being pulled and perhaps told to transfer it to 'sales' after becoming a Gold Member

I have no say whatsoever as to how this forum is run but I do think that before removing someones thread they should be told. The only acception to this is if the post/thread could be consider as libel/slander

However in law its best NOT to moderate a blog as to do so means you lose the protection in law now allowed to forum/blog owners. You should ONLY remove posts/threads if asked to by the subject otherwise leave it alone

See here http://www.gcdtech.com/blog/should-you-moderate-comments-on-your-website/

To comply remove ALL suggestion that a website is moderated

Interesting! Can I say, though, that it wasn't my thread - I was only commenting in the thread someone else had started.

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I get emails telling me what topics I'm following have changes and just seen my last email about the above topic, clicked the link through to read it and hey .. presto . it's come up " error " and can't be found, so it's vanished into the ether ...........

Malc

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Hi Scythe,

I cant agree about putting Mk4s on a pedestal over other marks. I am seeing as many threads on all marks and all appear to be treated with as much info equally.

I like others on here have said the original was pulled because it was advertising and only gold members can do that.

I have sometimes wondered if I have put an end to a disscussion as it seemed sometimes I posted on a thread and that was that but for that to be true you are considering the possibilty that all the members of The LOC have a conspiracy against you/me and that is just rubbish. It could be that your last statement on the thread was so profound that it couldnt be answered or added to.

Just keep posting. I have always found everyone to be friendly and very knowledgable and its even better when you can meet them at a meeting and finally put faces to the names. Mike

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Don't know if this fit's, but when i tried to login yesterday i could not at all, sent me off to a website saying no connection.

Maybe just a glitch me thinks.

And you do as we all do have the right to speak, if what you say is against the rules then you should be warned of what it is and how it is against the rules, and also what action is to be taken, thread removed etc

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I agree with scythe and go so far as to say that there is a bit of MK4 LS400 bias/biggotry on the forum - however I can hold my own so don't really mind. I've owned two of them and know they are great cars but so are many others. Beer, cars and women are all very personal choices.

I did think the 460 sales pitch was a bit rich - however it was informative and perhap the mods could have asked the poster to edit it rather than delete it or upgrade to Gold and sell it properly. The rules are the rules and the poster was taking the P.

I must admit I am not keen on the front end looks of many of the current crop of new cars they are very agressive (including the Lexus) and the new 460 photo shoot confimed that - it is annoying that all the car designers seem to follow each other like sheep. Not like us on this forum :)

Bren

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To put you guys all in the picture the thread was removed by a Moderator as it was deemed to be selling and as we all know the rules of the LOC require anyone selling parts or even brand new cars in this case to be a paid up Gold member.

As moderators we always contact the originator of the thread in as nice a way as possible to inform them via a PM the reason the thread has been removed. We also inform them about Gold membership and if they wish to join they are quite welcome to advertise items for sale within reason.

Although threads are removed from the public forums they are never deleted but put into a special section in the Moderator"s forum where they can be seen by the management team and if after discussion a thread is deemed to be acceptable after all it can be reinstated.

In some cases it is possible to edit posts to remove the advertising content but please bear in mind Moderators give their time and effort for free so it is not possible to contact every member who has made a contribution to the thread informing them of its removal.

Regarding the "Other thread" that disappeared yesterday and I think I know the one. It was also removed as it was considered a for sale offer by a non Gold member so same rules apply.

I'll give you a typical example of the dilemma often faced by Moderators and this is the "I'm thinking of selling my Lexus,what do you think it is worth" thread. Now is that an out and out obvious for sale ad or a member with genuinely no idea how much to sell the car for on Autotrader?

We also receive reports from members for club rule infringements and these are always welcome,saves me for one being on here 24/7/365.

The login in problems have been experienced by other members including myself but it seems to be working OK today but if problems persist I will ask Admin to investigate.

Finally I have brought many threads to an abrupt halt usually by saying something amusing or completely stupid so don't worry it happens.

I hope this clarifies the situation but if you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

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Thanks for the insight Steve. Clarified beautifully sir.

Much as I figured.

Appreciate your honest words....they're not lost on me in the slightest. I know all too well what it is like to be a mod on a site.

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Yes Steve - it was my thread that was removed. I was lamenting the passage of my late but not so beloved LS430 and mentioned that I would strip various goodies off it if anyone wanted them. I can see that only Gold members should be able to do this (I was a gold member once), so removal of the thread was legitimate.

Incidentally I was offered 5% discount off insurance by Lexus this morning of I signed up for Gold membership, but considering they were quoting £588 when my existing insurer was quoting £319 , a 5 % saving isn't going to sway me :-)

I will test the dealership with what discount they will give me on roof bars when I pick up the car tomorrow, and will report back.

have any of you gold members got decent discount on servicing? And how exactly does it work? I mean once i began using an independent guy, the Lexus service department would often cut their prices to try to win my custom back. If I agree to one of those prices and then slip out the Gold membership card, would they then give me another X% discount?

Mike

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Yes Steve - it was my thread that was removed. I was lamenting the passage of my late but not so beloved LS430 and mentioned that I would strip various goodies off it if anyone wanted them. I can see that only Gold members should be able to do this (I was a gold member once), so removal of the thread was legitimate.

Incidentally I was offered 5% discount off insurance by Lexus this morning of I signed up for Gold membership, but considering they were quoting £588 when my existing insurer was quoting £319 , a 5 % saving isn't going to sway me :-)

I will test the dealership with what discount they will give me on roof bars when I pick up the car tomorrow, and will report back.

have any of you gold members got decent discount on servicing? And how exactly does it work? I mean once i began using an independent guy, the Lexus service department would often cut their prices to try to win my custom back. If I agree to one of those prices and then slip out the Gold membership card, would they then give me another X% discount?

Mike

I cant say I have ever used my Gold membership to get any discount and that wasnt the reason I joined. I felt that I was going to hopefully be a long term member of the LOC and know that there are always exspenses in running these things and was happy to contribute and join on that basis. Mike

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To put you guys all in the picture the thread was removed by a Moderator as it was deemed to be selling and as we all know the rules of the LOC require anyone selling parts or even brand new cars in this case to be a paid up Gold member.

As moderators we always contact the originator of the thread in as nice a way as possible to inform them via a PM the reason the thread has been removed. We also inform them about Gold membership and if they wish to join they are quite welcome to advertise items for sale within reason.

Although threads are removed from the public forums they are never deleted but put into a special section in the Moderator"s forum where they can be seen by the management team and if after discussion a thread is deemed to be acceptable after all it can be reinstated.

In some cases it is possible to edit posts to remove the advertising content but please bear in mind Moderators give their time and effort for free so it is not possible to contact every member who has made a contribution to the thread informing them of its removal.

Regarding the "Other thread" that disappeared yesterday and I think I know the one. It was also removed as it was considered a for sale offer by a non Gold member so same rules apply.

I'll give you a typical example of the dilemma often faced by Moderators and this is the "I'm thinking of selling my Lexus,what do you think it is worth" thread. Now is that an out and out obvious for sale ad or a member with genuinely no idea how much to sell the car for on Autotrader?

We also receive reports from members for club rule infringements and these are always welcome,saves me for one being on here 24/7/365.

The login in problems have been experienced by other members including myself but it seems to be working OK today but if problems persist I will ask Admin to investigate.

Finally I have brought many threads to an abrupt halt usually by saying something amusing or completely stupid so don't worry it happens.

I hope this clarifies the situation but if you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

I have absolutley no problem with threads/posts being removed. What does cause me concern is if they are removed without notifying the poster. Also if you want to avoid being sued be careful revealing that this forum is moderated If you do admit moderation it needs to be 24/7 throughout the year

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To put you guys all in the picture the thread was removed by a Moderator as it was deemed to be selling and as we all know the rules of the LOC require anyone selling parts or even brand new cars in this case to be a paid up Gold member.

As moderators we always contact the originator of the thread in as nice a way as possible to inform them via a PM the reason the thread has been removed. We also inform them about Gold membership and if they wish to join they are quite welcome to advertise items for sale within reason.

Although threads are removed from the public forums they are never deleted but put into a special section in the Moderator"s forum where they can be seen by the management team and if after discussion a thread is deemed to be acceptable after all it can be reinstated.

In some cases it is possible to edit posts to remove the advertising content but please bear in mind Moderators give their time and effort for free so it is not possible to contact every member who has made a contribution to the thread informing them of its removal.

Regarding the "Other thread" that disappeared yesterday and I think I know the one. It was also removed as it was considered a for sale offer by a non Gold member so same rules apply.

I'll give you a typical example of the dilemma often faced by Moderators and this is the "I'm thinking of selling my Lexus,what do you think it is worth" thread. Now is that an out and out obvious for sale ad or a member with genuinely no idea how much to sell the car for on Autotrader?

We also receive reports from members for club rule infringements and these are always welcome,saves me for one being on here 24/7/365.

The login in problems have been experienced by other members including myself but it seems to be working OK today but if problems persist I will ask Admin to investigate.

Finally I have brought many threads to an abrupt halt usually by saying something amusing or completely stupid so don't worry it happens.

I hope this clarifies the situation but if you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

I have absolutley no problem with threads/posts being removed. What does cause me concern is if they are removed without notifying the poster. Also if you want to avoid being sued be careful revealing that this forum is moderated If you do admit moderation it needs to be 24/7 throughout the year

I take your point on being sued but cant think of anything that was said on here to be worth having to lodge at least a quarter of a million pounds in court to get the case going. Mike

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To put you guys all in the picture the thread was removed by a Moderator as it was deemed to be selling and as we all know the rules of the LOC require anyone selling parts or even brand new cars in this case to be a paid up Gold member.

As moderators we always contact the originator of the thread in as nice a way as possible to inform them via a PM the reason the thread has been removed. We also inform them about Gold membership and if they wish to join they are quite welcome to advertise items for sale within reason.

Although threads are removed from the public forums they are never deleted but put into a special section in the Moderator"s forum where they can be seen by the management team and if after discussion a thread is deemed to be acceptable after all it can be reinstated.

In some cases it is possible to edit posts to remove the advertising content but please bear in mind Moderators give their time and effort for free so it is not possible to contact every member who has made a contribution to the thread informing them of its removal.

Regarding the "Other thread" that disappeared yesterday and I think I know the one. It was also removed as it was considered a for sale offer by a non Gold member so same rules apply.

I'll give you a typical example of the dilemma often faced by Moderators and this is the "I'm thinking of selling my Lexus,what do you think it is worth" thread. Now is that an out and out obvious for sale ad or a member with genuinely no idea how much to sell the car for on Autotrader?

We also receive reports from members for club rule infringements and these are always welcome,saves me for one being on here 24/7/365.

The login in problems have been experienced by other members including myself but it seems to be working OK today but if problems persist I will ask Admin to investigate.

Finally I have brought many threads to an abrupt halt usually by saying something amusing or completely stupid so don't worry it happens.

I hope this clarifies the situation but if you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

I have absolutley no problem with threads/posts being removed. What does cause me concern is if they are removed without notifying the poster. Also if you want to avoid being sued be careful revealing that this forum is moderated If you do admit moderation it needs to be 24/7 throughout the year

So are you saying its illegal to moderate a public forum? I don't understand and I'm confused. The mods do a good job deleting SPAM and other material that doesn't belong on a Lexus owners forum.

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To put you guys all in the picture the thread was removed by a Moderator as it was deemed to be selling and as we all know the rules of the LOC require anyone selling parts or even brand new cars in this case to be a paid up Gold member.

As moderators we always contact the originator of the thread in as nice a way as possible to inform them via a PM the reason the thread has been removed. We also inform them about Gold membership and if they wish to join they are quite welcome to advertise items for sale within reason.

Although threads are removed from the public forums they are never deleted but put into a special section in the Moderator"s forum where they can be seen by the management team and if after discussion a thread is deemed to be acceptable after all it can be reinstated.

In some cases it is possible to edit posts to remove the advertising content but please bear in mind Moderators give their time and effort for free so it is not possible to contact every member who has made a contribution to the thread informing them of its removal.

Regarding the "Other thread" that disappeared yesterday and I think I know the one. It was also removed as it was considered a for sale offer by a non Gold member so same rules apply.

I'll give you a typical example of the dilemma often faced by Moderators and this is the "I'm thinking of selling my Lexus,what do you think it is worth" thread. Now is that an out and out obvious for sale ad or a member with genuinely no idea how much to sell the car for on Autotrader?

We also receive reports from members for club rule infringements and these are always welcome,saves me for one being on here 24/7/365.

The login in problems have been experienced by other members including myself but it seems to be working OK today but if problems persist I will ask Admin to investigate.

Finally I have brought many threads to an abrupt halt usually by saying something amusing or completely stupid so don't worry it happens.

I hope this clarifies the situation but if you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

I have absolutley no problem with threads/posts being removed. What does cause me concern is if they are removed without notifying the poster. Also if you want to avoid being sued be careful revealing that this forum is moderated If you do admit moderation it needs to be 24/7 throughout the year

So are you saying its illegal to moderate a public forum? I don't understand and I'm confused. The mods do a good job deleting SPAM and other material that doesn't belong on a Lexus owners forum.

Chris the point Mike was making is if you are the moderator then you could be assuming responsibility for any libellous content or any other legal challenges. It is probably not that much of a problem in the UK but......what do I know. Steve and the other staff do a great job and we all appreciate their efforts.

Bren

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I have to say, I do agree with the OP's point around the LS owners. I
rarely post in the LS section (even when I have something useful to
add) because of the general air of dismisal for anything that comes from
a non LS owner.

As far a the moderation of content, the link posted nullyfies itself in the "After-posting Moderation" section (which is what happens on here) with this

However a 2009 High Court ruling suggested that publishers might not be
held liable for user generated content as long as they removed the
potentially infringing material as soon as practically possible.

So I'm not sure who is going to get sued for what.
You can remove infringing content, and removing a general post doesn't
open you up to anything according to that link. i.e. why would anyone
sue you for removing their "for sale" post when they have already signed
up to the T&C's that explain what can and can't be done in that
arena.

Additionally, the forum T&C's clearly state that

The club moderation team may at its absolute discretion, remove or edit
any post, signature or profile with or without notice or explanation,

As with all T&C's, if you don't agree, don't sign up to them (i.e. participate in the forum).

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To put you guys all in the picture the thread was removed by a Moderator as it was deemed to be selling and as we all know the rules of the LOC require anyone selling parts or even brand new cars in this case to be a paid up Gold member.

As moderators we always contact the originator of the thread in as nice a way as possible to inform them via a PM the reason the thread has been removed. We also inform them about Gold membership and if they wish to join they are quite welcome to advertise items for sale within reason.

Although threads are removed from the public forums they are never deleted but put into a special section in the Moderator"s forum where they can be seen by the management team and if after discussion a thread is deemed to be acceptable after all it can be reinstated.

In some cases it is possible to edit posts to remove the advertising content but please bear in mind Moderators give their time and effort for free so it is not possible to contact every member who has made a contribution to the thread informing them of its removal.

Regarding the "Other thread" that disappeared yesterday and I think I know the one. It was also removed as it was considered a for sale offer by a non Gold member so same rules apply.

I'll give you a typical example of the dilemma often faced by Moderators and this is the "I'm thinking of selling my Lexus,what do you think it is worth" thread. Now is that an out and out obvious for sale ad or a member with genuinely no idea how much to sell the car for on Autotrader?

We also receive reports from members for club rule infringements and these are always welcome,saves me for one being on here 24/7/365.

The login in problems have been experienced by other members including myself but it seems to be working OK today but if problems persist I will ask Admin to investigate.

Finally I have brought many threads to an abrupt halt usually by saying something amusing or completely stupid so don't worry it happens.

I hope this clarifies the situation but if you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

I have absolutley no problem with threads/posts being removed. What does cause me concern is if they are removed without notifying the poster. Also if you want to avoid being sued be careful revealing that this forum is moderated If you do admit moderation it needs to be 24/7 throughout the year

So are you saying its illegal to moderate a public forum? I don't understand and I'm confused. The mods do a good job deleting SPAM and other material that doesn't belong on a Lexus owners forum.

Chris the point Mike was making is if you are the moderator then you could be assuming responsibility for any libellous content or any other legal challenges. It is probably not that much of a problem in the UK but......what do I know. Steve and the other staff do a great job and we all appreciate their efforts.

Bren

Agreed the mods do a great job. Thanks for clearing that up :)

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