2006 Rx400H Inverter Failure

[SVS]

Hi guys,

My RX400h just suffered the dreaded hybrid inverter failure, discussed elsewhere on this forum. It's done only 40 000 miles, but it is out of the 6 years warranty. My VIN number is fairly close to the range which was recalled back in 2011, this repair is extremely expensive (I was quoted over £4000 by Lexus Edgeware road) and Lexus UK absolutely refuses to do anyhting to help.

I must say that it was a scary experience as the engine just stopped dead at 50 mph and I barely managed to steer the car to the side of the road.

Do you think there is anything I can do apart from biting the bullet, i.e. writing to Toyota UK? complaining to VOSA? trying an independent specialist for repairs, etc? Any advice will be greatly apreciated.

[ISJason]

sorry to hear about it sir.

Please let us all know how you get on.

If your car's serial number was close to the ones that were recalled, maybe you have a fair case against Toyota

for contribution towards the repair costs..? Just a thought.

good luck

J

[ColinBarber]

If your car's serial number was close to the ones that were recalled, maybe you have a fair case against Toyota

for contribution towards the repair costs..? Just a thought.

Certainly worth a try but I wouldn't hold your breath. The recall was for poorly assembled (soldered) inverter boards. Toyota should be aware which ones were affected - it either was or it wasn't, being close doesn't really mean anything unless they are unaware of a batch that was also affected.

The inverter could fail for a number of reasons, it would be nice if Toyota take a look and if it was due to the same reason as the recall then replace it for free. If they were to do this it would probably be sent back to Japan for analysis so don't expect a quick resolution.

If Toyota won't play then the best option would be to track down a used one from a written off 400h, preferably one that was rear-ended.

[ihpj]

It never hurts to ask Lexus for a contribution; but I don't hold out much hope for the OP because the manufacturers liability has to stop somewhere and all Customers are given the option of buying an extended Lexus Warranty to cover these eventualities.

For folks running these hybrids, a Lexus Waranty is essential IMHO.

[ColinBarber]

For folks running these hybrids, a Lexus Waranty is essential IMHO.

and for any type of German car an extended warranty is essential

Failure rate of hybrid drivetrains is well below that of industry norm. You mainly only hear about the bad on forums but we see very little on these forums or over on the Toyota forums of hybrid issues.

[SVS]

For folks running these hybrids, a Lexus Waranty is essential IMHO.

and for any type of German car an extended warranty is essential

Failure rate of hybrid drivetrains is well below that of industry norm. You mainly only hear about the bad on forums but we see very little on these forums or over on the Toyota forums of hybrid issues.

There was a recall for the 2006 model, so there must have been some sort of a manufacturing or design problem with the inverter.

[SVS]

It never hurts to ask Lexus for a contribution; but I don't hold out much hope for the OP because the manufacturers liability has to stop somewhere and all Customers are given the option of buying an extended Lexus Warranty to cover these eventualities.

For folks running these hybrids, a Lexus Waranty is essential IMHO.

I did ask and they refused even to talk to me. I agree that the manufacturer's liability should stop somewhere and I wasn't asking them for a free ride, just for a bit of good will and some help with a very expensive repair. I don't think that this component should have failed after just 40 000 miles, but I do accept that it was out of warranty.

[ColinBarber]

For folks running these hybrids, a Lexus Waranty is essential IMHO.

and for any type of German car an extended warranty is essential

Failure rate of hybrid drivetrains is well below that of industry norm. You mainly only hear about the bad on forums but we see very little on these forums or over on the Toyota forums of hybrid issues.

There was a recall for the 2006 model, so there must have been some sort of a manufacturing or design problem with the inverter.

The recall was for some 2005-2006 vehicles - not sure what percentage - it was a manufacturing issue. The power transistors weren't soldered correctly, dry joints develop with the high current which eventually leads to the transistors failing.

With this particular defect it can fail in two ways, either just the transistors fail and the hybrid system is shut down with the engine going into limp mode or when the transistors fail there is a momentary short circuit which blows the fuse and you coast to a stop.

[SVS]

"The recall was for some 2005-2006 vehicles - not sure what percentage - it was a manufacturing issue. The power transistors weren't soldered correctly, dry joints develop with the high current which eventually leads to the transistors failing.

With this particular defect it can fail in two ways, either just the transistors fail and the hybrid system is shut down with the engine going into limp mode or when the transistors fail there is a momentary short circuit which blows the fuse and you coast to a stop."

I assume that my case falls under the second category and it failed exactly when I accelerated (thus drawing the high current) and the car just coasted to a stop.

[ColinBarber]

I assume that my case falls under the second category and it failed exactly when I accelerated (thus drawing the high current) and the car just coasted to a stop.

the problem is you have no evidence at this stage that the fault you have was caused by the same manufacturing issue associated with the recall. There are multiple components within the inverter that could of failed and even if it was the same transistors the cause may not have been poor soldering.

The issue I have with this situation is that had your vehicle been a Toyota it would still be under hybrid warranty which runs for 8 years. I fail to understand how Lexus/Toyota expect customers to pay so much more for a Lexus vehicle compared to a Toyota and receive an inferior warranty.

[SVS]

I absolutely agree about the lack of evidence and being an RF engineer I will be getting the unit dismantled and investigated if I have time. On the other hand it would be nice to have some goodwill and understanding from what is supposed to be a reliable and luxury brand.

[ihpj]

For folks running these hybrids, a Lexus Waranty is essential IMHO.

and for any type of German car an extended warranty is essential

Well the point I was trying to make was that with other marques, like German as you suggest, they are still an internal combustion engine. You can find any number of specialists or mechanics to work on them and a manufacturers extended warranty isn't essential. However, with Lexus backing the relatively new and young technology of hybrid (with its complex internals and engineering) you don't have the luxury of finding any number of independent garages that specialise in fixing them if they (more aptly he hybrid part) go wrong. Hence leaving you to go back to a Lexus main dealer...and without the Lexus extended warranty, it's a wallet emptying experience.

So, I say again, those folks owning and running hybrids should give very careful consideration to insulating themselves from expensive repair bills. And the Lexus extended warranty becomes essential (IMHO).

[teejaybee]

Does anyone have a link to the VOSA actual recall page, I've just searched VOSA putting in dates from Jan 2005 to Jan2007 and they say there are no results!

[ColinBarber]

you have to search Toyota

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/searches/expand.asp?uniqueID=24A70F5C720D3186802578BE0047BC57&freeText=Blank&tx=VOSA

there are two chassis batch numbers potentially affected

JTJHW31U#02000101 to JTJHW31U#02008127
JTJHW31U#00001030 to JTJHW31U#00049415

[teejaybee]

Thanks for this, mine wasn't amongst them...phew!

[Tyrosman]

I haven't a clue re. the mechanics of a hybrid but should't the petrol engine take over in the event of an electric drive system failure?

[ColinBarber]

I haven't a clue re. the mechanics of a hybrid but should't the petrol engine take over in the event of an electric drive system failure?

which it does do and go into a limp mode except when the fuses of the system are blown.

[steve2006]

From personal experience in the electronics industry the use of "Lead Free Solder" has greatly contributed to the early demise of PCBs (Printed Circuit Boards).

This stuff needs a higher soldering temperature to melt it and the flow is poor, this I feel contributes to more initial heat related stress to the components being soldered and poorer contact between the components,solder and circuit pad, the latter resulting in the dry joints mentioned previously especially where vibration is also a factor.

Fortunately I still have a supply of the conventional lead tin alloy solder which when finally used up will prompt my retirement from the job!

I came across a PCB the other week where all the components were embedded in a type of epoxy resin simply to prevent repair of the board, the failed component could be seen but not replaced. Component cost 15p replacement PCB £250.00!

Not exactly an environmentally friendly approach by the manufacturer but driven by the modern "throw away" society.

I would love to get my hands on one of these defective invertors to actually see what the problem is. The problem will be no circuit diagrams will be made available to assist in fault finding as it will be a closely guarded secret to ensure Toyota have the upper hand when it comes to supplying a complete replacement and charging accordingly.

Another question, the old invertor will be classed as WEEE and as such has to be properly recycled under the regulations so what happens to your old unit? Do you think perhaps they could be returned to the manufacturer,repaired and then resold as "reconditioned" at a lower cost than an outright new unit or is this already happening and you receive a recon unit as a replacement.

From an environmental point that would be the ideal solution but hey paying £4000.00 is better than say £2000.00 for Toyota profit margins.

[ColinBarber]

In theory in this situation we shouldn't be dealing with a soldering issue because it would have been included in the recall if it was affected. I too would like to see this unit, I'm sure it could be repaired for less than the cost of a replacement.

[SVS]

Thanks for this, mine wasn't amongst them...phew!

Mine wasn't either....

[SVS]

In theory in this situation we shouldn't be dealing with a soldering issue because it would have been included in the recall if it was affected. I too would like to see this unit, I'm sure it could be repaired for less than the cost of a replacement.

It looks like they have all the bases covered. I was told that I cannot have the old unit after a replacement inverter is fitted because it has to go back to Lexus and the residual value of the broken "sealed unit" is £1000. The more I think about it the more dodgy it looks - if it cannot be repaired, then why want it back, if it an be repaired, why they are fitting a brand new inverter.... or do they? They don't have any inverters in stock either and the lead time is almost two weeks.

[ColinBarber]

I imagine they want any failed component of the hybrid drivetrain to go back to Japan for analysis.

Have you tried breakers? I would have thought you could get one for £500 at most.

[SVS]

From personal experience in the electronics industry the use of "Lead Free Solder" has greatly contributed to the early demise of PCBs (Printed Circuit Boards).

This stuff needs a higher soldering temperature to melt it and the flow is poor, this I feel contributes to more initial heat related stress to the components being soldered and poorer contact between the components,solder and circuit pad, the latter resulting in the dry joints mentioned previously especially where vibration is also a factor.

Fortunately I still have a supply of the conventional lead tin alloy solder which when finally used up will prompt my retirement from the job!

I came across a PCB the other week where all the components were embedded in a type of epoxy resin simply to prevent repair of the board, the failed component could be seen but not replaced. Component cost 15p replacement PCB £250.00!

Not exactly an environmentally friendly approach by the manufacturer but driven by the modern "throw away" society.

I would love to get my hands on one of these defective invertors to actually see what the problem is. The problem will be no circuit diagrams will be made available to assist in fault finding as it will be a closely guarded secret to ensure Toyota have the upper hand when it comes to supplying a complete replacement and charging accordingly.

Another question, the old invertor will be classed as WEEE and as such has to be properly recycled under the regulations so what happens to your old unit? Do you think perhaps they could be returned to the manufacturer,repaired and then resold as "reconditioned" at a lower cost than an outright new unit or is this already happening and you receive a recon unit as a replacement.

From an environmental point that would be the ideal solution but hey paying £4000.00 is better than say £2000.00 for Toyota profit margins.

They would let me have the defective board unless I pay £1000, it doesn't look like they this is because of some tightly kept industrial secret, but rather to prevent people like you and me having a closer look.

[steve2006]

That's interesting as I understood you were entitled to recover any defective parts replaced on a vehicle as technically they belong to the car's owner.

What would happen therefore if your inverter was stolen and you needed a replacement without having one to return?

Does it actually state on the estimate the replacement inverter is brand new?

[SVS]

I imagine they want any failed component of the hybrid drivetrain to go back to Japan for analysis.

Have you tried breakers? I would have thought you could get one for £500 at most.

I haven't tried breakers, because my local Lexus dealer would not instal a second-hand inverter and even JEM told me that they won't touch a hybrid.