Dallas, Texas

[thesmileyone]

I apologise but there is no Lexus model that can beat a Merc S class or BMW 750i at what they do best.

If in doubt put the Passat keys down and test drive an LS460, LS600h

Whilst I find the little dig humouros, I don't actually drive a passat anymore, it was a mere tool for a poor student (and a bloody good one, post remap), I currently drive an Audi A3.

[petayV8]

Well if you can buy a S class for 165k i didnt know and i also didnt know they discontinued the Maybach - i stand corrected. And i did forget about the bi-turbo now you mention it. However i still say that all motor journalist always compare it to the other german rivals and has won numerous awards within that segment which is stated on its wiki page also. Even the 165k S i personally wouldnt compare to Bentleys and Roycles Royces latest offering. were talking about traditional hand built cars that take 6 - 12 months to be delivered where each car is a one off custom product. nothing is impossible when it comes to customising those cars. The Mulsanne also makes 752lb ft of torque at 1750rpm, a dream if you want a super smooth, quiet vehicle. which is my reason for not comparing it to a S class. Its in another league imo. Did i mention 200k was base? theres a 20k wheel option and more after that. I know im going off topic a bit here but just saying (if there was a topic?) :)

[noby76]

I am not missing the point. I know very well those who afford those cars don't care about reliability to begin with. I know they pay the 165K for a badge on a bonnet as Lexus still beats them with regards to build and product differentiation. as the OP mentioned, most properties in the residence he was staying cost 500K upwards and most of them were driving Lexus's. If the Lexus badge, build quality, product differentiation was not up there with a Merc, BMW or Audi, then those high earners wont have one parked in front of their homes or golf course. If they can afford a 500k house then sure they can afford a 165K top tier Merc or BMW but they chose not to.

@thesmileyone

Lexus currently does not have a high performance model Like a highly tuned 6 litre or a bi turbo 5.0 litre as found in the Merc AMG models so a comparison is pointless. lets wait until Lexus brings out a highly tuned LS model then we can go crazy with comparing an LS with a 65AMG or bi turbo model.

and a 320 CDI has an engine capacity of 3220 cc so its not a 2.0 diesel as you claim.

infact lets be truthful about this Mercedez benz has been making cars since 1800's BMW has been making cars since 1900's Lexus brand has been in existence for only 24years. now for a 24 year old brand to start rubbing shoulders, with brands that have been around for over 125 years says a lot about Lexus. as I previously said its not the best Luxury car in the world but its up there and only took 24 years..and wasn't having a dig at your Passat was only asking to drive an LS before making a comment about no Lexus model beating a Merc S class or BMW 7 series. infact the 20 year old LS400 is still said by its owners to be smoother, quieter and rides better than some newer S classes, and 7 series BM's they test drove with around the same capacity engine as the LS.

[Exdee]

I think the most ironic point is you compare Merc's to a Rolls Royce... which is made by......wait for it....BMW.

Poor attempt at dramatization. This is common knowledge.

Lexus is made by Toyota too but they make very different products.

@ Topic: Mercedes is widely considered the most prestigious German brand. It's good to know that Lexus is seen as an alternative, at least in Dallas. I personally am quite happy that Lexus is getting the recognition it deserves in the US. But I couldn't resist to step in when I saw a LS being compared to 'S Class'. Maybe if a model was specified I wouldn't have bothered. The S65 AMG has been compared to a Rolls Royce Ghost (Top Gear) and a Bentley Mulsanne (Motor Trend) so it's definitely not just me.

In fact here is a link to the Top Gear episode (Season 16 Episode 3). It is quite entertaining.

The second segment starts at about the 46 minute mark.

[Derekosb]

This is descending a little.

The Lexus LS is a quite natural competitor of the S Class Mercedes, Audi A8 and BMW 7 Series at the lower end (i.e. "Real World") end of the model ranges but only available in petrol or the very expensive Hybrid. It is never going to be anything but a niche model in the UK.

Prices (new) start at £71,995 but leasing costs are prohibitively high, as are running costs for business.

The S Class starts at £61,435 (although no-one will actually pay that) but more importantly can be leased for less than £500 a month, as can Jaguar's excellent XJ and the other German's. Note however that these are all diesel models as this is the UK.

In the USA the market is totally different as Diesel is irrelevant and not sold.

Base model Merc is the 4.6 Litre V8 S550 costing around $90,000

The base model Lexus LS460 costs $72,585 so the roles are reversed. The S Class is quite commonplace in the UK, certainly compared to an LS. In the USA it will be different and sales figures for May 13 show a quite close number sold (only around 200 apart) although this appears to being a result of deals on the old S Class as a run out model. Sales were up 16% in May and 19% overall in 2013 to date (Source).

Lexus sales were reported as being up as well. The Merc S Class was Number 86 in volume sales, the Lexus LS number 90.

Anyway, the point of my post was that we should be comparing apples with apples.

A diesel S320 CDi in the UK is going to outsell a petrol LS460. Which is the better car is purely down to personal taste. What I will say is that in the UK they are definitely competitors for private sales, less so in the business market.

Derek

[petayV8]

All ill say is it has already been concluded that it really is down to taste and all have plus and pros in another thread a few months back. So lets not repeat whats already been covered

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lexusownersclub.co.uk%2Fforum%2Ftopic%2F81521-drive-an-x5-and-you-wont-go-back-to-lexus%2F&ei=dzuyUce5EoSwOdKFgJgB&usg=AFQjCNHWN1sRx07lcsTo2PEQs8xM4tcL5g&sig2=j2i5OL7rfmmhbbefDGYzEQ&bvm=bv.47534661,d.ZWU

[thesmileyone]

This is descending a little.

The Lexus LS is a quite natural competitor of the S Class Mercedes, Audi A8 and BMW 7 Series at the lower end (i.e. "Real World") end of the model ranges but only available in petrol or the very expensive Hybrid. It is never going to be anything but a niche model in the UK.

Prices (new) start at £71,995 but leasing costs are prohibitively high, as are running costs for business.

The S Class starts at £61,435 (although no-one will actually pay that) but more importantly can be leased for less than £500 a month, as can Jaguar's excellent XJ and the other German's. Note however that these are all diesel models as this is the UK.

In the USA the market is totally different as Diesel is irrelevant and not sold.

Base model Merc is the 4.6 Litre V8 S550 costing around $90,000

The base model Lexus LS460 costs $72,585 so the roles are reversed. The S Class is quite commonplace in the UK, certainly compared to an LS. In the USA it will be different and sales figures for May 13 show a quite close number sold (only around 200 apart) although this appears to being a result of deals on the old S Class as a run out model. Sales were up 16% in May and 19% overall in 2013 to date (Source).

Lexus sales were reported as being up as well. The Merc S Class was Number 86 in volume sales, the Lexus LS number 90.

Anyway, the point of my post was that we should be comparing apples with apples.

A diesel S320 CDi in the UK is going to outsell a petrol LS460. Which is the better car is purely down to personal taste. What I will say is that in the UK they are definitely competitors for private sales, less so in the business market.

Derek

You have summed it up perfectly.

My point about the S320 CDI was that he decided to do a like for like comparison with a brand new LS 600h vs a Merc S320 CDI and a 2004 based S55k. (without the k according to him, just spec but no supercharger). Which is a ridiculous way of comparisons.

Then he states how I need to be model specific because I compared an S Class to an LS. Again, I am being model specific, LS and S Class are both models. Both have different engines within the models.

The big thing about Merc's in the UK is business lease. Most people in the position to buy an LS are MD's or higher... most MD's or higher have the sense to lease a car that depreciates rapidly, and they don't have to worry about reliability either. Merc's and BMW's can be leased all the time... it is hard to lease an Lexus let alone an LS. But he seems to state it as fact that people only buy a Mercedes for the badge...wrong.

For the record Noby76, I have driven the following extensively.

LS 430, LS 600h. Owned a 1992 Lexus LS400, very good car!

Mercedes: S600L (2005), S65 AMG, S63 AMG, S500 (latest model), CL500 and numerous others.

Vw Phaeton (very under rated car, depreciates way too quickly unfortunatly).

BMW 750iL, 760iL, 750i, 740i, 728i (underpowered).

Audi S8 v10, Audi A8 W12,

I could go on. So before you condescend me because I used to drive a Passat, perhaps you should have asked me if I have driven one rather than just assume I haven't.

[stevet]

Is this topic anything about the IS series?

[noby76]

@thesmileyone

seriously I didn't mean to offend all I was saying was to drive an LS before passing judgement about no Lexus being able to match an S Class or BMW 7 series. below is my quote.

" I owned a BMW 520i briefly , I have driven my mates BMW 330Ci few times, rode in my brothers mates S Class 55 with the AMG package not the real AMG in New York as he uses it for Chauffeuring and rode in 2011 E Class 320 CDI as a taxi car when i was in Munich and all are nothing special with the exception of the S55 maintly the engine sound and sound system of that car is beast. so it boils down to what the buyer is looking for."

now point out where in this quote was I comparing an LS to an S320 CDI?? all I was listing were German cars I have driven or rode in and commented on them being nothing special except the S55 there was no mention comparing any to an LS.

we could all come on a forum and list cars we have driven even if we did it in our dreams and no one will know for sure. so I am in no way condescing you for owning a Passat. as I will pick an R36 Passat over an Audi or BMW for their sheer rareness and looks. so I also love me a Passat key my self. we all know Lexus is getting there and getting there very fast in only its 24th year of existence but again we all know the Germans set the benchmark when it comes to automobiles and the Japs always take this and improve on it.

The decision to drive a Lexus over Merc, BMW or Audi or vice versa depends solely on the buyer,and as you have stated if they can afford to Lease a Lexus from new as they tend to be quite expensive to lease from new compared to the German competition. so budget also is a factor I the decision making as each brand has its pros and cons in some way shape or form. with my small budget, I had the chance to either get a 330i BMW , an A4 Audi 3.0 Quattro, a C Class Merc 320 or a Lexus IS300. and I went with the IS just because I like to be different on the road and want Jap reliability but that's me. so its always a buyer decision to drive one over the other and not the fact that Merc or BMW or even Audi does it better than Lexus.

[thesmileyone]

Actually this is what you said. Direct quotes from yourself.

yeh was in New York and Boston summer last year and in my two weeks there, I saw a lot of Lexus , Infiniti and Acura's than I have in UK . the only ones i didnt bump into was the IS-F and LFA. I did see the usual German brands but the BMW's and Audi's were quite rare. infact I have never seen so much Japanese cars compared to UK . the common ones being Honda's and Toyota's the Americans love them and they all seem larger in size aswell. the US Honda Accord is about the same size as a Lexus GS same as the Toyota Avalon which was a car i really took a liking to including some Acura's and Infiniti's . they in US seem to have a lot to choose from with regards to the cars and models compared to the limited ones we have here which brings some varieties compared to the same models and colours we drive here. and the mercs i saw was the C300 4MATICs those ones looked really nice i dont think we even have this model in UK. I dont think the americans drive Lexuses and Infinit's because BMW and Audi's are not affordable as they can finance a car like we can do here its just they not badge snobs like us here in UK where as already confirmed most not in the know think mmh its a BMW its a Merc so it must be good and only people who have 'made it' drive them and they follow the herd. . The Americans know a good thing when they see it and they tend to look past the badge thats why Infiniti's Acura's and mostly Lexus's are doing well there than here.

talking about autoboxes, I always thought autoboxes were boring and not much fun until i bought my IS and its opened my eyes about how fun autoboxes/tiptronics can be in that one can leave it in D mode when they cant be asked during start stop traffic or relaxed driving and have it in M or S mode to select gears for twisty A B roads and up till now i have never had a situation in my IS where i thought geez only if it had a manual box. becuase i can put it in 2nd or 3rd gear same as any manual car can when se both approaching a corner ;) .

IS350 would have been my next Lexus but will settle with either a GS430 or get that Infiniti G37 when the prices are within my budget.

Part about badge snobbery^

and what does Merc S class and BMW 750i do best that hasnt been surpased by Lexuss???

you cant get any more refined than a Lexus - LS460, LS600H

you cant get any quieter than a Lexus - LS400,LS460,LS600H, (infact most reviews i read complain these cars are too quiet)

You cant get anymore reliable than a Lexus - IS,GS,LS,RX,CT All models (maybe except the diesel models)

You
cant handle better than a Lexus - LFA Nurburgring record 7:14 minutes (which super car BMW or Merc has beaten this time?)

You cant get better customer service anywhere than a Lexus customer service.

A load of acheivements by so called Lexus with no actual proof to back it up, just your opinion yet you claim that everything an S Class or 7 Series has done is surpassed by Lexus.

surpassed past participle, past tense of sur·pass (Verb)

Verb

1. Exceed; be greater than.
2. Be better than: "he continued to surpass me at all games".

I am still waiting for you to explain how any Lexus model is better than its competition. Your words, not mine.

[thesmileyone]

Probably also worth looking at your Nurburgring claim.

You cant handle better than a Lexus

LFA Nurburgring record
7:14 minutes (which super car BMW or Merc has beaten this time?)

7:14 was the special LFA Nurburgring package car. £408,000

The LFA itself actually did it in 7:38, in the dry. £343,000

Merc SLS AMG : 740. £160,000.

So more than double the price for 2 seconds faster.

[noby76]

still cant see any where in your highlighted texts of me comparing an LS to S320CDI in your posts above. not trying to throw this thread off topic here but.

most comparison review articles I have read comparing an LS to an S class and BMW 7 series of the same engine capacity. confirms.

The Lexus was more refined to drive

The Lexus was more quieter to drive.

The Lexus in general has a record of being more reliable than the competition

and when it comes to ultimate driving machines, Nurburgring track time records do not lie. the LFA recorded a faster time compared to any super car from Mercedes or BMW. the times are not based on how much the cars are worth but how quickly the track can be covered. so your price comparison is pointless. the track is still open so Merc still has opportunity to throw money into the SLS to bring it to the same price as the LFA and we can see if it beats the LFA time.

and for Lexus being better than the competition is based solely on my experience from test driving the BMW, Audi and Merc when I was looking for a 3 litre car and concluded the Lexus was better. a BMW owner will conclude BMW is better and same as an Audi owner will conclude Audi is better. so not sure where you were going with this question but its a flawed one.