Present-Generation Is250

[Rabbers]

In his post of 17 August, michaelH commented that since some of us surely drive

the new IS250, this should be called the "IS Mark 3 Forum". This is a fair point but,

strangely, it appears to have received no replies.

I was reminded of this post when, earlier this week, I had a long chat with the owner

of a French Lexus dealership from whom I gathered that the first-year sales of the

new 250 were originally projected at a 1:6 ratio with the 300h. This ratio was expected

to vary little from country to country, but has proved unrealistic just about everywhere,

some of his colleagues in both France and Germany having sold no 250s at all to date

in 2014 while meeting or even exceeding their targets for the 300h. One of the few

places where the 250 sells well is said to be Russia, no doubt for good commercial

reasons of its own, but this market does not figure in Lexus' European statistics.

These results are seen by some as a vindication of the decision of some countries -

most notably Italy, Holland and Belgium - to withdraw and not replace the old 250

upon the launch of the 300h, and if the resulting all-hybrid range might have been

considered a last-ditch attempt by Lexus to differentiate itself from competitors

instead of continuing to unsuccessfully go head-to-head with them, it was never-

theless trumpeted as a bold strategic move (which appears to be paying off in view

of sales growth well above that of other premium manufacturers in the first half of

2014). With specific regard to the 250, there remains a widespread belief among

dealers that an attempt to milk an old product by repackaging it (with a new body

and chassis but the same poor fuel consumption) when BMW (3- and 4-series) and

Mercedes (C and CLA) were themselves launching new or renewed models in the

same segment was never going to be successful, and, what is worse, likely to

confuse prospective purchasers of both the 300h and the GS. Thus the new 250

has tended to remain unpromoted everywhere it is sold, and even the prospect of

a hefty discount is rarely enough to overcome serious concerns about depreciation

even in the eyes of those who care less about fuel economy than a nice ride.

Be all this as it may, it is fair to conclude that the chances of spotting a present-

generation 250 on the road are pretty low, at least in Continental Europe, and it

would not be surprising if the market life of this model will be quite short.

[ColinBarber]

Yes the forum should be renamed IS series III - I don't have the ability to edit that I'm afraid.

In another thread I posted this years sales figures for the IS in the UK:

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic/92486-bad-news-guys/?p=879563

The IS250 will be replaced with the IS200t - we don't know when but looking unlikely this year.

[Silver Arrow]

A bit like the GS250 that I have. A dead duck....

To be honest, if it wasn't for the CO2 figures by which all forms of "car tax" are levied, the GS250 is a good car....I do regularly get mid 30's MPG, it smooth, refined, very well made; and for around £20k, you can have a seriously good car in the GS. It's better than a Gen3 IS250 in almost every way - except size....

Now all we get are 2 Hybrids (GS300h and 450h). One (on paper at least) seems under powered, whilst the other is hideously expensive to buy for what it is...

[rayaans]

A bit like the GS250 that I have. A dead duck....

To be honest, if it wasn't for the CO2 figures by which all forms of "car tax" are levied, the GS250 is a good car....I do regularly get mid 30's MPG, it smooth, refined, very well made; and for around £20k, you can have a seriously good car in the GS. It's better than a Gen3 IS250 in almost every way - except size....

Now all we get are 2 Hybrids (GS300h and 450h). One (on paper at least) seems under powered, whilst the other is hideously expensive to buy for what it is...

Once upon a time, about 20 years ago me and my friends were talking about who has the biggest engine. Nowadays all I hear young driver's talk about is who has the cheapest road tax and who's car does the most miles per gallon.

Its become all about running costs when people buy cars now and thats a shame because now all I see on the motorway are uber efficient BMW's and Mercedes vehicles! We are being brainwashed into thinking the best cars are the most efficient ones and being a Jeremy Clarkson fan, I dont like it!

Buy the car that you like, not the one that you have made a compromise on. As for the IS250, I personally think its a better car than the IS300h. Its more fun to drive and has real character, it may not be fast, but the sound when you put your foot down certainly puts a smile on my face, as well as on the passengers'.

I guess we can blame inflation and taxes, right? right??....or perhaps no increases in wages?

[DJP]

A bit like the GS250 that I have. A dead duck....

To be honest, if it wasn't for the CO2 figures by which all forms of "car tax" are levied, the GS250 is a good car....I do regularly get mid 30's MPG, it smooth, refined, very well made; and for around £20k, you can have a seriously good car in the GS. It's better than a Gen3 IS250 in almost every way - except size....

Now all we get are 2 Hybrids (GS300h and 450h). One (on paper at least) seems under powered, whilst the other is hideously expensive to buy for what it is...

Once upon a time, about 20 years ago me and my friends were talking about who has the biggest engine. Nowadays all I hear young driver's talk about is who has the cheapest road tax and who's car does the most miles per gallon.

Its become all about running costs when people buy cars now and thats a shame because now all I see on the motorway are uber efficient BMW's and Mercedes vehicles! We are being brainwashed into thinking the best cars are the most efficient ones and being a Jeremy Clarkson fan, I dont like it!

Buy the car that you like, not the one that you have made a compromise on. As for the IS250, I personally think its a better car than the IS300h. Its more fun to drive and has real character, it may not be fast, but the sound when you put your foot down certainly puts a smile on my face, as well as on the passengers'.

I guess we can blame inflation and taxes, right? right??....or perhaps no increases in wages?

I've never considered the running costs before buying a car, up until now that is. I loved my Jag gas guzzler, the Saab Turbo and the CLK. However, once I'd driven the 300h and seen that performance certainly didn't suffer compared to my IS250, combined with twice the mpg and £10 road tax I was sold. I did test drive an Audi S5, which was awesome, but I'd of lost my license within days and died of frustration watching the fuel gauge drop whilst sitting in traffic.

I think your final point/question is on the money too, the cost of motoring has become eye watering, and many have sen their take home pay eroded by inflation

[Bratman91]

Yes the forum should be renamed IS series III - I don't have the ability to edit that I'm afraid..

You are absolutely right - why on earth whoever decides these things couldn't chose something more descriptive and less confusing is beyond understanding. Do you know who does decide these things?

[Exdee]

It's sad. Looks like the last V6 that is still ported with a standard transmission will be eventually shelved too and we'll be left with nothing but this CVT nonsense. :(

[ColinBarber]

the 200t vehicles don't/won't have CVTs

[Bratman91]

I contacted Owners Club Support and suggested a name change for this forum. Within 12 hours the name has been changed to make it clear that all third generation IS models are covered and not just the 300h. Excellent service from Support, I think.

[rayaans]

A bit like the GS250 that I have. A dead duck....

To be honest, if it wasn't for the CO2 figures by which all forms of "car tax" are levied, the GS250 is a good car....I do regularly get mid 30's MPG, it smooth, refined, very well made; and for around £20k, you can have a seriously good car in the GS. It's better than a Gen3 IS250 in almost every way - except size....

Now all we get are 2 Hybrids (GS300h and 450h). One (on paper at least) seems under powered, whilst the other is hideously expensive to buy for what it is...

Once upon a time, about 20 years ago me and my friends were talking about who has the biggest engine. Nowadays all I hear young driver's talk about is who has the cheapest road tax and who's car does the most miles per gallon.

Its become all about running costs when people buy cars now and thats a shame because now all I see on the motorway are uber efficient BMW's and Mercedes vehicles! We are being brainwashed into thinking the best cars are the most efficient ones and being a Jeremy Clarkson fan, I dont like it!

Buy the car that you like, not the one that you have made a compromise on. As for the IS250, I personally think its a better car than the IS300h. Its more fun to drive and has real character, it may not be fast, but the sound when you put your foot down certainly puts a smile on my face, as well as on the passengers'.

I guess we can blame inflation and taxes, right? right??....or perhaps no increases in wages?

I've never considered the running costs before buying a car, up until now that is. I loved my Jag gas guzzler, the Saab Turbo and the CLK. However, once I'd driven the 300h and seen that performance certainly didn't suffer compared to my IS250, combined with twice the mpg and £10 road tax I was sold. I did test drive an Audi S5, which was awesome, but I'd of lost my license within days and died of frustration watching the fuel gauge drop whilst sitting in traffic.

I think your final point/question is on the money too, the cost of motoring has become eye watering, and many have sen their take home pay eroded by inflation

Yep, Ive seen the cost of living go up annually but my pay has been "frozen" for 7 years running. The only way to get more in my pocket is to do more hours and then, I get hit by 50% tax! No wonder all the practitioners I know are going to Australia, New Zealand etc. The pay is about the same but the cost of living is less and of course, the weather makes you feel less grumpy!

As for the 300h, I think its a good car and if my wife was doing in excess of 5k miles a year it'd be an easy option to choose the 300h. However, as she only does about 3k at most, the 250 will be ideal as I havent really seen too much difference in depreciation as of yet between the 2 models.

[Bratman91]

rayaans said: "As for the IS250, I personally think its a better car than the IS300h. Its more fun to drive and has real character, it may not be fast, but the sound when you put your foot down certainly puts a smile on my face, as well as on the passengers'.".

I agree with you, rayaans. When my lovely white IS250 was written off by a BMW last September, my local Lexus dealer offered me an IS300h at pretty well the same price as the IS250 Premier that I fancied. In spite of what was a very attractive offer, I declined the IS300h because it had a 4-cylinder engine rather than a sweet 6, the boot was shallower and the additional complexity would inevitably result in expensive repairs at some point. Car tax may be lower for the IS300h and fuel consumption better, but as I drive only about 4000 miles per year, this is not a big issue. The IS250 is a superb car although I don't think it is much of an improvement on the previous generations.

By the way, rayaans, isn't the top rate of income tax 45% rather than 50% and this doesn't kick in until a taxable income of £150000+. Australia and New Zealand are great countries but, in spite of all the problems we have, so is the UK. I have lived in a number of countries and the grass is often far less green than it at first appears - the weather isn't always benign either!

[rayaans]

rayaans said: "As for the IS250, I personally think its a better car than the IS300h. Its more fun to drive and has real character, it may not be fast, but the sound when you put your foot down certainly puts a smile on my face, as well as on the passengers'.".

I agree with you, rayaans. When my lovely white IS250 was written off by a BMW last September, my local Lexus dealer offered me an IS300h at pretty well the same price as the IS250 Premier that I fancied. In spite of what was a very attractive offer, I declined the IS300h because it had a 4-cylinder engine rather than a sweet 6, the boot was shallower and the additional complexity would inevitably result in expensive repairs at some point. Car tax may be lower for the IS300h and fuel consumption better, but as I drive only about 4000 miles per year, this is not a big issue. The IS250 is a superb car although I don't think it is much of an improvement on the previous generations.

By the way, rayaans, isn't the top rate of income tax 45% rather than 50% and this doesn't kick in until a taxable income of £150000+. Australia and New Zealand are great countries but, in spite of all the problems we have, so is the UK. I have lived in a number of countries and the grass is often far less green than it at first appears - the weather isn't always benign either!

Yes you are correct, it is 45% this year, didnt realise as the tax return is in October. I was looking at my tax returns for 2013 which were 50%. What a big change!

Back on topic - when I was researching look what I came across!

Based on a 5 year, 4k mile cash purchase including dealer discount - IS250/300h F Sport, premium navigation, leather, metallic paint:

CAP predicts the IS300h to be cheaper by £535 if you buy new!! If you get a pre-owned IS250 it actually predicts the 250 to be cheaper! Reason being - Depreciation of the 300h dips is higher if buying a 1 year old version!? Who would have thought!? Apparently it depreciated more because of the higher asking price, dips after the Lexus 3 year warranty runs out and then dips again after the hybrid warranty runs out. The 250 remains fairly constant throughout.

[ColinBarber]

I guess the pre-owned IS250 option is cheaper due to heavy depreciation within the first year due to dealers trying to get rid of them. Saying that the 300h prices have recently dropped as Toyota and Lexus dealer have been offloading their fleet and demo stock, but most of those have been the higher-end specification models - the low end models prices have remained relatively high.

[Rabbers]

Unless the higher road tax and fuel bills of a petrol-engined car are compensated by greater driving pleasure

in respect of a hybrid equivalent in the same price bracket, as they are clearly considered to be by some

contributors to this thread who prefer the 250 to the 300h, the choice of a hybrid is pretty much obligatory

for private buyers. Whether this choice is not further influenced by a desire to share the warm and fuzzy

feeling that some drivers supposedly get from the thought that they are doing their bit to save the planet is

very much a question of personal attitudes, or of degrees of political correctness best kept to oneself.

However, if we accept that Victorian cities would have been cleaner and healthier places had it been possible

to breed horses that dropped less dung on the streets while eating less hay, it would be illogical not to support

and encourage manufacturers who, in our own time, make cars that reduce pollution and make less noise,

especially when those cars, like the majority of Lexus ones, are a pleasure to own and drive. I am therefore

not at all sure whether we are becoming over-obsessed with fuel economy and being "brainwashed" into

buying hybrids, or whether the increasing share of the market of these and other fuel-efficient vehicles is

not simply the reflection of economic, environmental and sanitary needs that companies like Toyota/Lexus

would have come to acknowledge and act upon even without pressure from regulatory agencies worldwide.

[Silver Arrow]

Hmm. I'm not sure it's obligatory at all. As a privateer, the purchase cost of the Hybrid GS was £7k more. Wow. Thats a lot of extra fuel that could be bought, and whilst the 450h is quicker, in normal driving the GS250 is adequate...and unless you do a lot of miles, the economy thing becomes a fad.

That was my number 1 reason for getting the GS250 - I bought it new within 3 weeks of launch, and had I waited 12 months, I could have bought a 6 month old GS450h Lux for the same money....

The GS is a keeper - and I must admit I was worried about the batteries after the 3rd year - even though they seem reliable in previous Lexus Hybrids. Ultimately, however, you go with your experience - and my experience of the Mk2 IS250 was that it was superb, I loved the engine in that car...

As Rayaans says - the V6 is addictive...

A final though: whilst it (i.e. a hybrid) pollutes less after manufacture (i.e. where it's driven), it will have cost more Co2 in manufacture and transport to the UK than it could ever reclaim in it's life - and that goes for all newly made cars - much more so for Battery equipped vehicles....so I don't buy the argument that it's kinder to the environment. The greenest way to motor is to buy an old car....

[DJP]

Hmm. I'm not sure it's obligatory at all. As a privateer, the purchase cost of the Hybrid GS was £7k more. Wow. Thats a lot of extra fuel that could be bought, and whilst the 450h is quicker, in normal driving the GS250 is adequate...and unless you do a lot of miles, the economy thing becomes a fad.

That was my number 1 reason for getting the GS250 - I bought it new within 3 weeks of launch, and had I waited 12 months, I could have bought a 6 month old GS450h Lux for the same money....

The GS is a keeper - and I must admit I was worried about the batteries after the 3rd year - even though they seem reliable in previous Lexus Hybrids. Ultimately, however, you go with your experience - and my experience of the Mk2 IS250 was that it was superb, I loved the engine in that car...

As Rayaans says - the V6 is addictive...

A final though: whilst it (i.e. a hybrid) pollutes less after manufacture (i.e. where it's driven), it will have cost more Co2 in manufacture and transport to the UK than it could ever reclaim in it's life - and that goes for all newly made cars - much more so for battery equipped vehicles....so I don't buy the argument that it's kinder to the environment. The greenest way to motor is to buy an old car....

A GS450 sounds rather good I must say....

I don't buy the eco bit either it's all a load of smoke and mirrors IMO. The cost of disposal etc etc. Mind you I'm bit of a global warming sceptic anyway.

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

[Silver Arrow]

Hmm. I'm not sure it's obligatory at all. As a privateer, the purchase cost of the Hybrid GS was £7k more. Wow. Thats a lot of extra fuel that could be bought, and whilst the 450h is quicker, in normal driving the GS250 is adequate...and unless you do a lot of miles, the economy thing becomes a fad.

That was my number 1 reason for getting the GS250 - I bought it new within 3 weeks of launch, and had I waited 12 months, I could have bought a 6 month old GS450h Lux for the same money....

The GS is a keeper - and I must admit I was worried about the batteries after the 3rd year - even though they seem reliable in previous Lexus Hybrids. Ultimately, however, you go with your experience - and my experience of the Mk2 IS250 was that it was superb, I loved the engine in that car...

As Rayaans says - the V6 is addictive...

A final though: whilst it (i.e. a hybrid) pollutes less after manufacture (i.e. where it's driven), it will have cost more Co2 in manufacture and transport to the UK than it could ever reclaim in it's life - and that goes for all newly made cars - much more so for battery equipped vehicles....so I don't buy the argument that it's kinder to the environment. The greenest way to motor is to buy an old car....

A GS450 sounds rather good I must say....

I don't buy the eco bit either it's all a load of smoke and mirrors IMO. The cost of disposal etc etc. Mind you I'm bit of a global warming sceptic anyway.

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

Me too mate....I think there is some truth in it, but they have to find a way of pegging China, Brazil and India etc back from developing too much....

[Bratman91]

A final though: whilst it (i.e. a hybrid) pollutes less after manufacture (i.e. where it's driven), it will have cost more Co2 in manufacture and transport to the UK than it could ever reclaim in it's life - and that goes for all newly made cars - much more so for battery equipped vehicles....so I don't buy the argument that it's kinder to the environment. The greenest way to motor is to buy an old car....

I wonder how the carbon footprint of Cuba, where cars are confined almost entirely to old American gas-guzzlers of the 1950's, compares with those of European countries over, say, the last 50 years.

[DJP]

Hmm. I'm not sure it's obligatory at all. As a privateer, the purchase cost of the Hybrid GS was £7k more. Wow. Thats a lot of extra fuel that could be bought, and whilst the 450h is quicker, in normal driving the GS250 is adequate...and unless you do a lot of miles, the economy thing becomes a fad.

That was my number 1 reason for getting the GS250 - I bought it new within 3 weeks of launch, and had I waited 12 months, I could have bought a 6 month old GS450h Lux for the same money....

The GS is a keeper - and I must admit I was worried about the batteries after the 3rd year - even though they seem reliable in previous Lexus Hybrids. Ultimately, however, you go with your experience - and my experience of the Mk2 IS250 was that it was superb, I loved the engine in that car...

As Rayaans says - the V6 is addictive...

A final though: whilst it (i.e. a hybrid) pollutes less after manufacture (i.e. where it's driven), it will have cost more Co2 in manufacture and transport to the UK than it could ever reclaim in it's life - and that goes for all newly made cars - much more so for battery equipped vehicles....so I don't buy the argument that it's kinder to the environment. The greenest way to motor is to buy an old car....

A GS450 sounds rather good I must say....

I don't buy the eco bit either it's all a load of smoke and mirrors IMO. The cost of disposal etc etc. Mind you I'm bit of a global warming sceptic anyway.

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

Me too mate....I think there is some truth in it, but they have to find a way of pegging China, Brazil and India etc back from developing too much....

Yep, and that's not going to happen until their citizens have all the goodies that we lucky one's have. I can really see the Chinese listening to the US, not!