3 MSF

Have Lexus pitched the RCF up against the M4?? I thought that was more the media; Lexus have been at pains to state that they have built the car from the aspalt up with the goal of providing 'accessible driving performance'. I've not seen any official Lexus material pitting the RCF against the M4, although I think we have all naturally assumed this, and the media have cemented that belief, but Ian has correctly underlined (IMHO) that they are vehicles with completely different characteristics; one is a track car for the road, and the the other is a powerful. luxurious GT 2+2...

It's a point of view on a personal, subjective matter. I happen to think it's beautiful, looking incredible 'in the flesh'.

The M4 promised to be much of what it is. I love coupes, and after the 323i, 328i, 330i, 335d M Sport, Alpina B3 BiTurbo, Alpina B3s BiTurbo and M3 (V8, Competition Pack), the M4 seemed a logical progression (my experience was that turbos were no issue on the Alpinas, with bags of torque DELIVERED APPROPRIATELY for road or track). Where the M4 isn’t ideal is in the delivery of the incredible torque that the engine delivers – it is in no way progressive. There’s no build up at all. The M4 has actually made me better appreciate the beauty of the M3 V8 engine with its lower, more progressive torque delivery. It’s difficult to get a quick getaway on anything but warm, dry surfaces without the tyres and back-end wanting to rip itself free, bounce around and tyre-squeal whilst the nanny controls do their best to keep things in check. Some will love those characteristics and the way they are delivered, but it’s the case that many of the formal respected automotive journalists / reviewers are stating that the M4 has an issue in that it doesn’t deliver it’s power down so well, even on the track, and it’s for this reason amongst others that the RCF makes up its ground and keeps on the M4's tail, and on some of the twistier closed tracks, beats it. If only the M4 was a little heavier(!), this might not be such an issue, but then its all about compromises and the goals of the designer and marketing teams… Interestingly, the new Mercedes C63 AMG, with its twin turbos has an engineering countermeasure for this issue; the torque generated in the first 3 gears is limited by the ECU to improve traction. Because the RCF doesn’t have turbos and has a progressive torque delivery, it doesn’t suffer with these issues, and where traction could become an issue on the limit, the TVD pretty much takes care of that. I really like the M4 in so many ways – it’s not about taking sides or liking only one 'ultimate vehicle' (where forums often seem to end up going for some reason) but I just preferred the overall feeling of solidity, the smooth and un-burstable progressive power delivery and soundtrack of the RCF V8 (not to mention the Lexus customer experience, whereas the M4 hasn’t exactly been fault free, and BMW aftersales service in no way reflects the fact that you are treated like a king until you’ve signed on the dotted line… The M4’s been in for 5 issues since November, and there’s a whine from the engine bay that’s getting progressively louder that is apparently ‘a characteristic of the model’. Really? And it gets louder with time (just before failure?)? Well, no such whine from the RCF. Now - where’s that piggy-bank…

Guys - I think you need to drive one and make up your own mind, that's if you get the opportunity as the demonstrator vehicles are being snapped-up before they even land at the dealers. I drove one at Derby that they had to borrow from Nottingham on Sunday for the purpose; I have an M4 (and plenty of driving / test track / MIRA development experience as an automotive engineer) and I was very impressed. The vehicle may be on the heavier side (but that's a function of delivering other positives like sound insulation etc) so it's a real feat of engineering to have achieved something so flexible, fast, stable, quiet yet aggressive when kicked and with a wonderful V8 soundtrack that no YouTube video will ever represent effectively... oh yes, it's very well rounded, it looks beautiful in the metal, and exclusivity will be assured...

That being said, I'm not sure what mode Clarkson was in, as I don't recall the engine rev's spooling-up bright yellow on the tachometer; he'd probably got it in economy mode, as to be quite frank, he didn't seem to have a clue regarding any of the technology...

Thanks Chris - I've just been advised that Derby has access to a fully loaded Blue / Grey specimin. Oh dear - this could be expensive...

Rayaan, we should demand that The Stig puts in a lap, and that Clarkson formally apologises to Lexus and the TG viewers. :)

I couldn't agree more Andy. In fact, as a current owner of an M4 (great car, don't get me wrong) I'm off to my Lexus dealer later today with a view to purchase providing they still have any remaining allocation (or can get hold of one somehow...). These things are being snapped-up by those who get the whole Lexus thing, and I know my local dealer has already shifted theirs - even the demo went on virtually day one to a customer who was picking something else up, saw the RCF, enquired, drove, cancelled the other vehicle and purchased!

I think that was just before he shot off into the grass... Best place for him.

Check-out YouTube - there are even a couple of closed-circuit tests where the RCF beats the M4, especially when you throw a few bends in there. The M4 has so much torque and is so light that through the twistys it's all tyre smoke as traction is exceeded or at its limits. A couple have interviews with very well respected professional drivers, and it's my recollection that they're pretty much all complimentary about the RCF, its traction, its chassis balance and so on. Its weight get's mentioned quite frequently too, although I did hear someone say it's carrying a bit less than Mr Clarkson these days...

I'm sure it's been oversimplified, and probably incorrect to a point. Different grades of steel are available, and not necessarily heavier (chemistry and processing / subsequent treatments can take care of that) with regards to bracing etc. Porky isn't a term I heard used around the Press Shop, but maths and physics must've provided the solution for the twist and strength requirements of the RCF. All that aside, I have to agree that an ISF would be welcomed, and may come from a better starting point. As the RCF allocations seem to be rapidly running out (irrespective of the Top Gear 'review'(?), we're all going to need something else to drool over if you're not after the 5 series / E Class equivalent... :)

No - I won't do that - I'm not biased in any way. As an automotive engineer in a former life responsible for body shell construction, I learned alot about Unusual Interior Noise (UIN) and Noise, Vibration and Harshness (NVH) signatures and their root-causes. The GSF and RCF are completely different structures with different resonance and exitation frequencies. Smart use of minimum materials can have a dramatic effect on interior noise, and doors are almost a vehicle within themselves (very complex as an assembly process, usually demanding their own assembly lines away from the main vehicular bodies) and their design can contribute significantly to noise generation or reduction as opposed to a large quarter panel area and volume that will need suppressing as in the case of the RCF. For this reason, a bit of smart design (there will be a team focussed on this, if only to minimise the use of materials to minimise manufacturing costs through Value Analysis (VA - after the event) and even better, Value Engineering (up-front design and manufacturing engineering activities). The GSF will have had much of both, no doubt. So, dont be surprised to hear that 'less is more', as the term 'lean' was derived through analysis of the Toyota Production system, that does 'more with less'.

I'm failing to see the point of your post. Firstly, I own a BMW M4, fully specced, and the M4 and RCF retail about the same around £65k. Maybe the extra weight is the reason the RCF feels that bit more solid, firm and planted on the road. I don't have kids nor do I ferry folk around, so the space in the back is of little importance to me. But I draw a close here - "Forget the brand" - well, that's where you still have opportunity. You see, it's the brand, their philosophy, their respect for people, their JD Power Survey 'Best Customer Service' awards year after year that say so much more than owning a stripped-out track car for the road.The RCF is beautifully isolated from the outside world as a function of strategically placed sound deadening materials, and they come with some mass. My brand new M4 has 'been in' on a number of occasions already for exhaust valve, ECU, rear brake disc, whining from the e/g bay, broken interior component issues - that's more than my 5 previous Lexus vehicles put together! And I'm not biased - I've owned V8 M3, 335d M Sport Coupe, 323i Coupe, 328i Coupe, 330i Coupe, Alpina B3 BiTurbo, Alpina B3s BiTurbo... so, forget the brand? I think you perhaps don't get what 'Lexus' is all about; it's an experience, a good one, not just a car...

That looks fantastic. I went for a test drive today (same colour as yours / grey leather / TVD / ML) only to find a guy who'd gone in to sign for his new IS saw it, drove it and bought it there and then!! So, Lexus Derby managed to rustle-up a demo vehicle from the team nearby in Nottingham (white / red leather / sun roof / ML / no TVD :() First thoughts were how good it looked in the metal. Drove the car for sometime and came to a few conclusions: 1. It's daft comparing this with an M4. One is a track car you can drive on the road, and the other is a road car you could hoon around on a track with, should you wish to do so. 2. RCF incredibly well mannered, a wonderful environment. 3. Engine note - a great sound-track. Better than the more synthesized offering in the M4, but don't get me wrong, the M4 sounds very good too, but there's 'something else' in the RCF soundtrack. 4. Transmission not as immediate as the M4, and had a tendency to need to change-down when acceleration was required. The M4 with all it's torque rarely does this unless you're flooring it. I wouldn't class it as an issue or annoyance, because at the same time it drops you straight into that lovely, evolving soundtrack of the V8 (serious emotional quality here). 5. Lovely, compliant ride. Not fidgety at all. Actually nice not to have to decide what suspension setting you'd like; you get what you get, and it's good. 6. Golf clubs and trolley fit without removing anything from the bag; it's 3 wood and driver out in the M4, and when it's raining out there...well, it's not a deal clincher, but it's certainly nice to just open the boot, load the gear and away without any messing about. So in summary, a more than credible alternative to a number of vehicles around the price-mark, including my M4...

Shame they DIDN'T give The Stig the car as he would've made Mr Clarkson look the fool. How can you even listen to a man that goes on about a car having 'more torques...' - not exactly familiar with terms you might reasonably expect of a qualified, knowledgeable automotive journalist... He hadn't a clue about how to set the car up, and the torque vectoring differential told him who was boss when he tried to drive it like a lunatic. The Stig would've certainly showed a very different car, one more capable than Mr Clarkson was qualified to show. I own an M4 and had the pleasure of test-driving the RCF today and they are very different vehicles, so why insist on judging all by the same limited criteria? In numerous ways, the Lexus gives so much more on the 'emotional quality' front, and would, without a doubt, provide you with a more than credible alternative as your every-day driver. Poor show Jeremy - very poor.

Shame they DIDN'T give The Stig the car as he would've made Mr Clarkson look the fool. How can you even listen to a man that goes on about a car having 'more torques...' - not exactly familiar with terms you might reasonably expect of a qualified, knowledgeable automotive journalist... He hadn't a clue about how to set the car up, and the torque vectoring differential told him who was boss when he tried to drive it like a lunatic. The Stig would've certainly showed a very different car, one more capable than Mr Clarkson was qualified to show. I own an M4 and had the pleasure of test-driving the RCF today and they are very different vehicles, so why insist on judging all by the same limited criteria? In numerous ways, the Lexus gives so much more on the 'emotional quality' front, and would, without a doubt, provide you with a more than credible alternative as your every-day driver. Poor show Jeremy - very poor.

I own an M4 and have done so for a few months now. I've also owned an IS-F, V8 M3 and Alpina B3s BiTurbo amongst others. The RCF has just landed at my local Lexus dealership and I've received my invitation to arrange a test drive; I've been waiting for this for sooooooo long :) I'll post my thoughts at the earliest opportunity... TTFN - Mark.

Silver / carbon looks nice - anything out there in Nebula Grey / carbon??

Looks great - thanks for the images Chris. The stark contrast between the silver and carbon is quite catching - would love to see it in real life. Interestingly, looking at a lot of the on-line videos / images, there would appear to be a different option in the US that provides roof and spoiler in carbon only (my preference). Regarding the colour scheme / theme, the painted hood looks integral to the vehicle, and the carbon roof give a more 'squat' appearance - I think it looks really good personally. This is the same concept as employed on the BMW M3/4, where the sun-roof is a 'no-cost exchange' option, with a carbon roof as standard (weight reduction theme / lower centre of gravity). I'd love to see a Nebula Grey / carbon image if anyone has one??

Yes it is. The roof and spoiler look great (a la BMW M3/4 - yes, the boot is carbon fibre with an integral spoiler design for the M4, painted in body colour). That would do me, but the dealer said 'highly unlikely' that Lexus would split the option.

By whatever method of 'witchcraft' employed, everyone always commented on how awesome it sounded; as long as it sounds good, I don't care how they achieve it :hocus-pokus: Ah well, another day nearer the test drive... Just to reiterate an earlier question, has anyone seen a vehicle that the carbon hood / bonnet looked good on other than black? I'd just really like the saw-tooth wheels, but if not, there's always room for a sun-roof and the thinner-spoke design (do they look good in the flesh?)

Chaps - quote from the Car magazine long termer - "The F was seriously quick, particularly past 4500rpm when the two-stage intake system did its work and piped a load more power to the wheels and a brilliantly bassy growl into the cabin." Might be my misinterpretation, but when I bought the vehicle, my dealer said Lexus was using the induction system 'via some trick pipework' to influence the sound in the cabin in such a way that minute pressure changes generated an almost physical interaction with the engine note, and it's true, you can 'feel' the sound and throb of the induction roar. Very impressive ;)

Guys - thanks for the replies and views. To clarify a couple of things, firstly, the Mark Levinson sound system is probably the best 'non after-market' sounding system I've ever heard, or probably just the best I've heard full-stop. I'm afraid I'll have to beg to differ with you Andrew, but the M4 sound will more than compare with your IS-F; I had a 2010 model and although it was good, the M4 is excellent, booming a bass-line from just over 1000rpm all the way to the red-line - and it doesn't run out of breath at all (a common issue with turbocharged engines). Secondly, forget the synthesized sound, it's less than 2% at maximum output. You only have to wind the window down and hit the accelerator pedal to hear that - oh, and the fact that everyone turns to look at what they're hearing - it really is a good sound - get yourself a test-drive and you'll appreciate it :winky: Oh, and don't forget that the IS-F pipes some noise into the cabin too. I don't plan to track my M4, but if I was ever going to track a car, then this is the one. And this is where it all starts to become clear(ish...). The RCF looks stunning (I haven't a clue what colour I'd choose - I like a bunch of them; blue / grey / silver favourites). I like the saw-tooth wheels, but don't like the carbon hood, yet love the roof and spoiler (is there a colour that the carbon hood looks really good with?) I'd also like a sunroof, so I guess that's that sorted, but then the wheels become an issue... Great looks, exclusivity, awesome daily drive, sounds amazing, and low annual mileage so 'low mpg' not really an issue, and with the current trend they'll be giving fuel away soon! :D Yep - I'm thinking the RCF is the way forward. No kids, so can't see any point in the GSF, and to be fair, I'm not sure that probable cost and bland looks would really make it worth waiting for. I'll look to put a bit of a review (or at least my considered thoughts) together after the test drive - after all, the proof of the pudding... Mark.

Well, it's all been a bit of a let-down for me. I've been following the RCF for a long time now. I really enjoyed my 2010 LSD IS-F, especially above 3500rpm! I love the Lexus ethos, and have been fortunate enough to have worked in the Motomachi plant along with a few others, and I can tell you that the amount of work that goes into the development stage of a Lexus vehicle is staggering, and the Quality Assurance of the build process as close to flawless as you're going to get. This, along with the incredible customer service experience, well, nothing touches it. The odd thing is that you don't normally need it, but if you do, it's nothing less than pleasant in my experience. Anyway, this time last year I was driving around in an RX450h magic carpet - fabulous car but no soul. Couldn't fault it, but I wasn't 'looking forward' to driving it next time, it's just not that kind of vehicle. So I really wanted something to get the enjoyment back in the driving experience. I bought a CLA45 AMG - great car. 2.0ltr 355bhp, 0-60 in 4.1 blah blah blah - again, great car, but it was only to be a filler whilst I waited for the RCF... then the first few reports came out. 'Way too heavy - a quarter of a tonne heavier than the M4' / 'slower in every way than the M4' / 'less practical than the M4' / 'doesn't handle like an M4' / 'much thirstier than an M4' - well, I bought an M4. The car handles brilliantly. The gearbox is one of the best (I have MIRA test track driver experience as an automotive development engineer). Contrary to what many say (as they've probably only heard 'YouTube renditions) it sounds amazing in Sport and Sport+ (the sound is pleasantly muted in 'comfort' but goes for it after 3,000rpm too) - there isn't really much to say that isn't complimentary, and I'm looking forward now to driving it home from work a little later on. But you know, I've seen a few more videos now, and read every report going on the RCF, and I'm lined up for a February test drive as and when my dealer receives their allocation. You see, I still have this yearning - a deep seated yearning. The M4 doesn't quite do the cossetted thing that well, due to road noise from the tyres and suspension set-up. Don't get me wrong, it's not 'overly noisy', but sound-deadening material (usually asphalt based) is heavy, and BMW have looked to minimise weight. I assume the RCF will be subtly different. The Harman Kardon set-up is nice, but have you heard the Mark Levinson system?? The M4 exhaust sounds really good, but the RCF by all accounts is 'wonderful' - adding to the emotional quality aspect of the vehicle. I know the rear sits don't fold forward, but I know Lexus / Toyota have an unwritten rule that golf clubs WILL fit in the boot... I love the styling (M4 quite bland in comparison) and the exclusivity (not many M4s around, but they will come). In summary, I'm convinced that 'the RCF is where it's at' - and then I read the blog written by the guys who have driven the car and therefore whose opinion matters to me, and I'm just not feeling the love... :eerrrmm: So, is it me, or am I missing something here...

Well guys, I have to say it doesn't sound as though anyone is overly enthusiastic about the RCF, or am I missing something here?