Overland

In the meantime, returning to the topic, in the search for possible brands / models / alternatives to the fact that the sedans of the Lexus brand of the D segment will cease to be distributed in our markets, we can make a small summary 1. the majority of people, from interviews and data on the net presented and discussed here, believe that Tesla is not a car as it does not have a traditional engine, it does not drive like a car (with the classic feedbacks of traditional cars: skidded, engine roar, grit and satisfaction in driving) and has many construction defects, which for many will never be solved, precisely because Tesla as a brand does not have a heritage of "traditional car builder" (but rather of rockets) will never be able to understand. 2. The automotive world is investing billions of dollars in all countries where car manufacturing is prominent in industrial production to invest, develop and produce electric cars, including Lexus, some with more conviction, like the Germans and others with much less conviction like the Japanese Having said all this, I had the opportunity to have a conversation via email with a kind Lexus manager, who replied to my request to suggest an alternative Lexus car since in May I would like to replace it with a new one, loves the IS has been canceled. In the discussion, the phrases I would like to emphasize reflect what has also been discussed here, namely that the market wants SUVs and they adapt. "The strategy of defining a product line up is very complex and follows clear evolutionary dynamics of the market and future sales opportunities. The Automotive Premium world is constantly changing, as are the specific demands of the market on the various segments, including those you mentioned (suv) When a product is no longer marketed, there are always strong rationales who try to consistently follow the reference market" But it also turns out that there will be new things coming, obviously it is not said which ones. "I can tell you that for the moment, given that you mention the Lexus IS, belonging to the segment of medium sedans, in these segments we are changing our sales strategy and will adapt our proposal with products that are more responsive to the market, not necessarily placed in the same size of segment" (regarding this: I don't understand how is possible to replace a segment with something that is not of the same segnent, indeed) Then there is a praise to the ES as a car that makes it clear that Lexus thinks that this is the car for those who want a sedan: "Today I can tell you that as regards the sedans, we have the new Lexus ES, among other things just presented on the month of October as a novelty with an Important restyling in the design and in the package of contents and equipment, which improve the previous model and which seeks to place the quality bar - which has always distinguished us - at a higher level" Having said all this, and read that is now there's no chance to have again IS or RC in the EU market, stated that I will never would drive SUV, (which in my opinion are cars that in the NX and UX segment align customers too much with that of other brands, thus removing the value of driving an exclusive and distinctive brand that has always been one of the reasons for purchasing the Lexus customer, undoubted) I think that the best possible decision for a customer like me will be to keep and my car, paying the important final sum at the end and waiting. If Lexus still proves to be a car manufacturer that lives up to its name, offering all customers, regardless of the fashions of the moment, a range of balanced, modern and updated cars, I will be happy to remain their customer as I am from more than 13 years now, otherwise, with calm and serenity, seen that my IS can easily last another 10 years, when I will now be close to 65 in 2031, I will evaluate if the "space rocket company" will have been able to improve its quality as cars manufacturer in 10 years, otherwise I believe that the Germans will prove to be the real future of the car because they don't follow trends, but they look ahead and thousand of millions dollars investment in EV's it seems to show the way. It is sad to say it, but I have the impression and the feeling that, if Lexus proves that its idea of the future (at least in certain markets) is to follow what the market says, avoiding to "write" the market itself, with a courageous future vision and risky investments, which inevitably must also look to an exclusive clientele, which is perhaps a minority and does not follow trends, will no longer be a leading house as it is now. I thank everyone for the great discussion that has been created starting from a simple question, I will keep an eye if any news will come up from the discussion, have great weekend, stay safe and try to have a safe Christmas in peace and happiness, despite the moment we are living.

👏👏👏

In the mean, at the side of our very wide topic discussion, in Germany... https://www.macitynet.it/bmw-investe-400-milioni-di-euro-sulle-auto-elettriche/ You can easily translate with Google

I would be happy just if the allow me to buy the car!!!

https://lexusenthusiast.com/2020/11/17/2021-lexus-is-offered-with-zero-percent-financing-in-the-usa/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lexusnews+Lexus+Enthusiast

This is a rough translation of a recent article from a newspaper in Italy. Bold are mine. “SUVs and Crossover: hope for a car world in crisis again Il Domani / by Redazione / 16d It rains in the wet. The three-month forced lockdown, in virtually every corner of the world, has dealt yet another blow - albeit not fatal - to the auto industry. A car sector that was already experiencing moments of great crisis. To get out of it? Simple, brands continue to focus on the segment that has kept them afloat - and in some cases thrived - in recent years. That is Suv and Crossover. For 2021, all major brands will be out with new models and new trim levels.To try to move a market where in all likelihood not even the substantial bonuses allocated by the bulk of European governments will be able to bring sales back to what they were, now many years ago. Reduction in spending? No problem, Crossover today are within everyone's reach Of course, the crux of spending remains, especially in a Europe where the crisis has hit hard and which will in all likelihood leave the middle class with less access to finance and savings.This demand for cars in the segment, without however spending a fortune, will most likely be answered by the Crossover, which today are also included in the price list with settings definitely within everyone's reach. Driving a car of this type - it should be clear to everyone - is no longer an exclusive for a few. Will SUVs suffer the most? In all likelihood, yes, even if even in that segment something is moving downwards. Safety and comfort in the first place There is something that, even in times of crisis, motorists do not seem ready to give up.They are safety and comfort, characteristics of a car inherent in functionality. Safety and comfort to which SUVs and crossovers have become accustomed to motorists all over the world. And even in a moment of crisis as they have not seen for some time, motorists will not be ready to give it up. Driving an SUV or a good Crossover, of those that are marketed by the best brands, completely changes the perspectives of those who are driving. And once the outlook is changed, going back to an old sedan just seems impossible. SUV and Crossover: ready to play the charge again The pessimists point to the saturation of the car world and above all to the growing inconvenience of this vehicle, at least in big cities. SUV and Crossover, however, have shown that it is not the desire for cars that has disappeared, but the desire for a certain type of car. SUV and Crossover have gone, in previous years, against any kind of forecast, up or down, showing that there is still the heart of innovation beating fast in the main European car brands.Whether they are able to save the sector once again - and in such open crisis conditions - we will only find out by living. The fact is that if you glimpse a light, albeit dim, at the end of the tunnel, the credit must absolutely be ascribed to SUVs and Crossover. Investing in cars even in times of crisis Our advice for motorists is to make a little effort and continue to prefer brands and segments that can actually give adequate performance, especially in terms of safety and driving comfort. We travel tens of thousands of kilometers by car, exposed to important risks both on urban and extra-urban roads. Saving on safety and quality of the vehicle that accompanies us does not seem to be a good idea, even during a difficult moment of crisis like this.”

That’s it

Yes, I agree of course. But who know what’s in the mind of them? Do you remember when they developed the IS220D? Made after the EU managers force Lexus to offer an engine that “surely the Italian, German and East European need and would buy” promising high selling? An epic failure never seen in the story of Lexus. While in Japan several times for my work and visit the main Tokyo dealer and the Intersect concept showroom, talkin with managers I learn that they do what their subsidiaries say them. If from Eu the common opinion of the dealers is that sedans does not sell, and if they include in this weird axiom also sport lineup like the RC, I suspect that some manager in Japan believe them. The result it seems clear: more SUV, only two sedan in which one is only if you have a “chaffeur” (LS) and nothing in the middle. Unless you live in the USA or Japan where the range is wide, really well balanced and with several options.

I think for their marketing and sales people it does. Reading this topic it seems the people in EU and UK prefer SUV, miniSUV and very soon the microSUV as it seems Lexus would launch some SUV based on Yaris. Everybody want a Sedan should buy a ES, this is what they stated.

Sure, sci-fi is always a theme from where to start for designers and engineers. Lexus is the best in the world to tell marketing stories showing beautiful things that at the moment of the commercial launch are totally different. If we imagine that LF-CC was the concept of IS, we can say that only few elements of interior design was them developed. From an all screen dashboard to a small 7" low res screen and all that buttons in plastic to push. I think the truth stay in the middle some brands are looking forward, some other are conservative: I agree totally with who said "Lexus (and not only) should look also to the competitors like Tesla and try to improve technology, interface, comfort, design, form/function" You cannot compete in the market of the future with only a good reputation in reliability.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

When I have booked an appointment online I was going in a location, there was a resposnible when they tell me about specs, informations, with kindness and professionally. When I have called the Toyota dealer in charge to selle Lexus, to ask about the new car I would like to buy, they firstly ask me "how do you want to pay the car?" that is the equivalent of "do you have the money for it"? This is the situation. Please could you tell me from where comes you sentence that Tesla need service every 6 weeks? I have a customer my company that drive one of the first Model S and he is never goes to an assistance, he have the software updated for free while he sleep (while I have to pay 300€ for memory card with the new maps, in a obsolete navigation system) I think that the only problem he had was getting angry because some idiot has parked his diesel car in the space of the charging columns of the local supermarket, where he usually goes to shop and in the 40 minutes dedicated he leaves the car in the meantime. I see that you would therefore be part of those who argue that it is better to buy a BMW or a Mercedes and abandon Lexus, so let's say you no longer believe in the Lexus product in the sedan category. Essentially, it confirms that Lexus' strategy in removing sedans from its range is the best way to move customers to Tesla or BMW and Mercedes.

The information about Tesla that this discussion has developed has been a lot and has drawn the attention to different and sometimes very conflicting opinions and this certainly can help those who actually find themselves in the dilemma of ending their relationship with Lexus and starting a new path. For many it could be the end of a very long "marriage", based on a series of values that Lexus has been able to transmit: customer approach, exclusivity, technological research (the first truly hybrid engines) innovation in design, identity and spirit of membership. But I would like to return to the full topic: or the purchase of a Lexus, when the "pay per drive" expires. Over the years, I have been saying this as a customer since 2004, some of the above values have been lost in my country. Customer service is paradoxically painful, where others were losers, they are now better than Lexus. Attention, I'm not talking about the quality of the product: I'm talking about the approach to the customer. The dealerships have been incorporated into the Toyota dealerships, the mechanics, customer care, customer reception have changed. Where the Lexus dealership welcomed you as a privileged customer, you are now considered neither more nor less than someone who buys a Yaris. But worse still, the Rome office, which manages Lexus in Italy, has essentially become a call center that doesn't seem to know what to say. They respond to each request with generic links, even out of context. If a customer asks (as I did) why IS and RC are no longer present (to see their answer) they reply with a copied sentence and a link to the NX. In my opinion, this approach would not have been tolerated in the past. When I bought my IS250 and I had problems with the suspension, they sent an engineer from Rome to try my car to help the dealership who couldn't find the problem. Every year, on the day of the birthday came a present: now these things don't happen anymore. Having said all this, the question I ask is: "at a time when we customers of the older generation, who have given great value to these aspects, having to change cars, even wanting to stay in Lexus, therefore buying a car that is not exactly what we would like (and I realize as I write that this is very stupid!) but since he loves the hybrid engine and the spirit of belonging he is willing to make this sacrifice: how should one ask, compared to the fact that Tesla's customer service would seem, according to some, to be much more accurate and performing, with a customer approach that is very reminiscent of the old Lexus? " In the cost value of a Lexus, let's say in the purchase of an ES Luxury, which in Italy costs € 68,000, shouldn't the value of a high-end customer service also be included? An exclusivity that is part of the experience? Can we say that Lexus's decline is also due to the loss of these core values? When the other brands, on the other hand, have learned their lesson and are very attentive to luxury, understood as "an exclusive approach to the customer"? I don't know about you, I speak for myself, but not all customers love the roar of the engines, the "skidding", the high-performance suspension and 0-100 acceleration. I regret the days when the customer care at the Lexus dealership greeted me with a glass of wine, a chat and the mechanics were like surgeons who knew exactly where to put their hands. The last service done, entering the Toyota workshop I was really scared for my IS and I asked myself: where the hell am I!

Amazing

From what I know the rebadging is not a sign of lower quality products, but a sign two different target and prices. Using the same platform Toyota decide to launch two products for two different customers. One is more convenient, because it is branded Toyota. The other, with higher specs in term of details, interior care, materials and maybe some little technical improvement with Lexus brand, and of course the value of the "logo", that is an intangible value, for an higher price. I have no problem with that, to be honest.. The question is: when we say (e.g.): the NX is a RAV4 rebadged so it is NOT a TRUE Lexus, why an ES that is a rebadged Camry is not a true Lexus?

I have the same idea. But when I have talk with the dealer he strongly tell me that despite the fact the ES has some characters that we could be not call properly "Lexus" as the suspensions (but I don't know what is the difference with IS) he is advance on a number of different aspect: the MY2021 will have Lithium battery that will be a great improvement, new infotainment (but not explained how) and a more features like the LSS+ 2.0 (He it tell me: blind spot monito, rear camera, automatic lights and so on... I have all this stuff in my IS300H MY2017 so I don't understand what is this 2.0 upgrade, did he means that they was not available till today in ES? I can't believe). When I saw the ES in person, personally I did not find it cheaper or poor towards my IS, I found them on the same level. Surely, I agree of those who said is not sport car, power or a kind of racer cars... I think is a luxury sedan for people that want to travel in a safely car, relatively luxury and beautiful to see. The big problem is that on the market it seems this car has not success sin EU, the dealer tell me they just sell very few units, while US/NX should be calculate in terms of tenths per month... so I asking: "what do you think: maybe Lexus in a couple of year will withdrawn the ES from Italian market?" He said: I don't have any info, but if they calculate the existence on market based on how many pieces they sell, if they withdrawn without hesitation IS and RC that was more successful.... I can imagine the ES will not have a long life here. 🥶

All good ideas for IS... But I doubt that we will see here in EU/UK

😞

Thanks for your reply. So even the IS it can be called an original "Toyota" model just dress like a Lexus, good to know. Concerning technology, I understand your point t on the NX, that is probably more advanced of the IS and RC and this come back us to the beginning: what could be the choice for those who doesn't like SUV? That simply cannot afford a LS or a LC? I think at the, the answer would be: ES And this brought us to a question? Is any ES worth the money? Reading even in this forum it seems the car is not much appreciated by the customers and this is exactly what blown my mid: why? Why Lexus put on the market a car with this low level of success and appreciation? May we expect in a couple of year they dismiss also the ES because they "don't sell"?

Discussing with my dealer, several things come up that I did not know and that maybe can make you think His best proposal would be to upgrade to an RC F-Sport or an ES Luxury if I want to maintain the level of options I have now installed on my IS300H, i.e. sunroof, Mark Levinson, triple LED headlights. However, he told me to evaluate the two aspects well because they are totally different cars (and I had come to this too!) Explaining that only the RC could be defined as a "real" Lexus of the generation in which Lexus designed cars with a certain type. of "avant-garde mentality", while the ES is a car that would be nothing more than a "copy" of the Toyota Camry and which, although an excellent car in terms of design and comfort, uses "more obsolete" engineering solutions, citing for example the suspension, the responsiveness of the engine, which would be rather slow and so on. The ES essentially, according to the mechanic, as well as the NX and the UX would be Toyota "disguised" as Lexus. Are we then to the point that Lexus offers a high-end sedan that would be a Camry with a different "dress"? Can anyone tell me if this statement makes sense? In addition to this he told me that I could only buy the RC that he has in the salon, because (as can be seen from the Italian Lexus website) RC and IS can no longer be ordered from today. So we are already in the full title of this topic, how is the situation in the UK, can you still order the iS300H?

I don't means Safety technology, as I said they was the first and probably still the better. I means that if I see the dashboard of a LF-CC and compare to the latest design (in every of the last models, like UX or ES or LS) there's nothing similar. Yes IS and RC has a great cockpit and interior design I agree, they come form the early LFA concepts, that is great. What I cannot understand why the infotainment system is made of low resolution small screen (10,3"I have in my IS it can be called big, but after all, it's not) and a (now) obsolete "optitron" in the Luxury series, while just the F Sport had the TFT with a very confused and opulent graphic? HUD was never offered in the IS/RC series, but available in UX, that in my opinion does not make sense as seen that (almost here in Italy) nobody bought any single accessory (I said previously that the target is not prone to spend more money that the basic version) Details count. and in my opinion to upgraded the dashboard with more technology, e.g. availability of upgrade maps via web and not with the purchase od a memory card for 300€ and so on, would be called "technology improvement". Appe car and Android auto comes very very later: all the others get them immediatly when Apple and Google released, I think is juts a couple of year Lexus offer them. And not to mention the possibility of an upgrade to the MY2017 IS to use Apple Car (I would pay for this!)

To be honest, and of course in my humble opinion: horrible! It’s maybe a fake? Let’s compare with the LF-CC concept I posted earlier. when you are going to use maxi screen there are only two way: 1. Stay minimal and clean as Tesla 2. Let’s them fully integrated into the consolle like Lexus shown in the LF-CC concept in 2012 Now, come back to reality: Why since 2012 Lexus was not able to make just a little step ahead into that direction and still give us a technology of early 2000’s?

Exactly. This is that sadly truth. We have an amazing car, it is beautiful, incredibly reliable, at certain moment it was an advanced car, with very special technical solutions especially in safety. Now, except for the hybrid engine technology, if we talk about safety, design, and mechanical solutions there are many and many other identical solutions, and some will cost so much less. The only difference it’s the logo. But sometimes to be part of an exclusive club is not enough. Personally I disagree totally that Lexus decide EU and UK has a value only for a certain range and prefer to lose historical customers and favor a new generation that probably know nothing of the brand and in few years they will change brand, while since 2004 I have spent 40/50K every three year to stay loyal to the brand. And we cannot avoid to say that is the lack of knowledge in the vision of the future of cars that drive Toyota in a weird direction. I really hope to be wrong, in may I have to take a decision and last week when I have try again a Tesla I feel my heartbeat. I hope the Lexus dealer could convince me that buy a RC could give me the same feeling. But if he talk just about “drive experience” or steering, suspensions and body... and faster driving and so on I think he will make a mistake. Even if I am born in the middle of 60’s I am a customer that would try look forward. And imagine spending again 50K for a car of the old generation it make me upset. Or probably I will do, who know? It’s sad that the brand I love stay still why the world is moving fast and a customer has to decide to stay still too.

In my opinion, if I decide to quit with Lexus (I hope no) the only alternative I would consider is a Tesla, taking of course all the eventually risk.

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