Jamesf1

fair enough didnt realise this was referencing unrestricted autobahn. 

its not a blood bath as less than half is derestricted, and studies have shown average speeds are around 88mph. 

FYI There is a blanket advised speed limit of 81, its just not enforced But if your involved in an accident and proven to be above this speed you can be held liable regardless of circumstances.

My point is - if you think driving safely at 120mph + is all about skill it isnt - its as least as much about luck, the faster you go the luckier you have to be.

I accept that derestricted autobahn is likely considerable safer than UK motorways in terms of other driver behaviour, as high speeds are expected.

Stupidest thing posted

there are no issues simply cruising at over 120MPH it comfort and all.

No wait it’s this

On occasions I was driving at 135MPH in IS250 and it was all normal and well,

but the winner is

The only reason I cannot see myself driving at over 140MPH is that with current ICE cars fuel efficiency drops drastically after 120-140M

really? That’s the only reason? I just hope the day your arrogance and woeful lack of judgement catch you out no one else unlucky enough to be in the vicinity is seriously injured or worse

53 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

How you compare it like for like.... Have you compared options on S-class, considering LS had many of those standard. Or you simply compared base price vs base price which is not "like for like". Same as new ES is £1000 cheaper then base GS, but it is not like for like - base GS was actually better equipped then base ES.

Toyota second biggest by sales - what does that mean? By absolute number of cars sold? by the profits made, by total sales value? Because the way companies are compared in same market is usually by "market capitalisation" - Toyota Market cap is nr.1 in 2018.

How did you compare? I compared base models and it was 12% difference. That in itself offers a specific view compared to your sweeping 40% statement

Copy pasting big words from Wikipedia has little valu to an informed debate.market capitalistion is value of shares- share price x number of outstanding shares, it has nothing to do with comparing companies in specific markets, and in what way is that relevant, the entire conversation is about no es350 as it wouldn’t sell. Anyway, which either way you define point is they know better than you about selling millions of vehicles in global market, so I agree with therir decision rather than your baseless uninformed opinion on sales potential. Actually arguing Toyota are the highest valued car company by Macap also shows they make the right decisions

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

For any Luxury Japanese car to sell well they need to be significantly cheaper then German. That is exactly how LS became staple in US... it sold like 40% cheaper like for like vs. S-Class.

The difference was that in US Germans could not compete much, the tariffs and weak Yen were favourable for Lexus. However, how they stay on to - is buy offering rage of cars... not only LS400 forever...

Any Lexus would sell in UK, but they need to be priced just above Toyota/Nissan/Mazda and not just below BMW/MB and AUDI. In UK they simply do not have brand recognition to be able to command premium - but that is not bad outcome. Lexus is generally just fancy Toyota, so to sell cars with say 10-15% premium is already better margins for Toyota.

@i-s Q60 3.0T you say... Well I could live with how it looks from outside, but inside is outright ugly mess. Maybe akin - "The M has the exact same overhead console as my Nissan Leaf does. The leaf is a very cheaply built car and it's just about acceptable in it - it is totally unacceptable in a "premium" car. " So... no thanks. I love how RC looks, even more how it looks and feels inside.

@Jamesf1 - I am not pretending to be some sort of genius, but you don't know what I do for a living either so attacking my abilities scores you no points. ES is junk car in any shape or form because it is FWD.. even if they do ES350 I don't care. ES350 AWD... that is more interesting, but not for me. My negative comments re 300h are more general for entire range.

Toyota is the biggest manufacturer in the world, not the second biggest... yet they introduced cars like Lexus IS220d.... "sure... they know what they doing it was genius decision, went exactly as expected.. no issues there - just worst Lexus ever made... by far!".

I cannot say for sure that introducing say RC350 would be great decision, but I am sure they would not loose money on it.. even in UK. They might not gain much either... so I guess they can afford to be lazy about it.

Facts : base price LS was 12% cheaper than S class at launch in US

Toyota is second biggest by sales 2018

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

GS350 not being offered only telsl me about bad sales decisions... we can argue about it forever, but fact is - we don't know. You cannot say car would not sell here - because you don't know... I am just saying I would buy one if it would... You cannot drive statistics from model which is not even on sale.

Running cost difference between GS450h and 300h are minimal... in fact after paying insurance and covering depreciation, things like fuel and MPG makes minute difference.

People who value running cost buys Skoda and Hyundai, not Lexus which just sitting on driveway depreciates twice as much as those cars costs.... every year.

The fact you don't seems to gasp is that Lexus does not provide any choice and that is foolish business logic (well.. unless they exiting the market altogether). Secondly, that offering the car half class below and with inferior performance for the same prices as market leader offer and hoping it to succeed is foolish as well.

@st4 - very true... making RC350 and ES350 is actually cheaper then 300h.

Oh for the love of god. Toyota are the second biggest carmaker in the world, Your  judgement on models offered, bad sales decisions or bad business logic are the rantings of a simpleton who has no understand of global corporate strategy, product planning, consumer behaviour and thinks 0-60 is important whilst driving an old slow car yourself.

My final comment is there is and never will be an ES 350 uk model. Get over it.

30 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

GS450h was simply badly priced in bad "era" i.e. it was comparable performance, tax and fuel consumtion to BMW 530d during diesel "hay-day" yet it was priced more along the lines of 540i. It was just too early for people to appreciate the car and many buyers were simply afraid of mystical and maybe expensive hybrid failure. Used cars are excellent value for money, but new ones were hard sell for a reason.

GS350 has never been offered and we do not know how it would have sold if it were. So your point is invalid.

GS250 is just bad engine choice for such a big car, and badly priced again - priced against 530i/530d, but performed more around 520i/520d.

GS300h was only introduced to Europe officially on 01/02/2014... So I am confused where your 2013 figures are coming from. Do you mean IS300h?

Based on your logic - GS-F, IS-F and RC-F should not exist... and why they even have LS and LC 500 and 500h... LS300h and LC300h would sell better right?

I’m not using logic, just statistical facts

erm LS and LC 300h - no, cars of that market segment/price bracket wouldn’t sell as 300h just like the RX

13/14 is the IS

-F models exist as they are halo cars product planned to sell in low numbers at a high price

GS 350 not offered tells you all you need to know about sales expectations

and your reasons for bad sales are factors but the main being from the sales pattern is -most buyers in those segments value running costs over 0-60, a fact you singularly don’t seem to be able to grasp even with the statistics to prove it

cars in the segments of -f models, And LC performance is valued more than mpg, their rivals are also fast and thirsty, so it isn’t an issue and v8 is offered

Nobody ever suggested  to drop 300h from the market (unless you cannot properly read). Of course most people will choose 300h even if there are other options, I reckon ~70% will go for it anyway. The whole discussion here is however about the 30% who found themselves unhappy with sluggish power 300h

the whole discussion here is around the 30% - except the non hybrids weren’t pulling in 30% of the sales they went even pulling in 10!!!!!! That’s my whole point the 300h of every model batted 2.0 t, 2.5v6 450h out of the park big time. It’s a shame about 450h but that was the GS- more 300h sold in 5 years than 450h  did in 13 years over 2 model iterations. I’m not arguing the 450h is any anyway bad car far from it, but sales unfortunately not strong enough to engineer ES to take that Powertrain.

snapshot 2018 244 GS 300h sold, 450h 46

85% in favour of 300h

Is example

over 2013 and 14 when 250 sold alongside 300h, fsport trim

v6 170 sold, 300h 1342

94% sales went to hybrid

Lexus are not wrong to not offer 450h never mind 350.v6

25 minutes ago, i-s said:

But that's because they're just not necessary anymore. 

Leaving aside the move to electric (which I am very much looking forward to), the need for anything over 4 cylinders has basically vanished. 

My father once had a Jaguar XJ12 5.3, with 285 horsepower and 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. 

Later in life, he had a BMW 740iL 4.4 V8 with 286 horsepower and 0-60 in 7.2 seconds. 

Now, Volvo sell the S90 T6 with 320 horsepower and 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. It is a 2 litre 4 cylinder engine. 

No one really needs more than that, certainly not in any mass-market exec or family car. The use cases for more than that are distinctly limited to very high performance cars. 

The performance and size of the ES300h are in line with a BMW E38 735i V8. Apparently our expectations have moved significantly in 20 years. 

In 20 years time from now we'll be wondering how we all put up with the noise, smell, fumes and horrible driving characteristics of ICE vehicles, as we all drive EVs that will do 0-60 in 4s. 

Yes this is it exactly. We are on the cusp of ice last hurrah. It will be increasingly hybridised to see it through to the death. I for one embrace hybrid as a step to full ev. Before long propelling your car by burning liquified dead dinosaurs will be, well extinct. Yes v12, v8 v6 were glorious wonderful stirrers of the soul and will live on in historic racing, museums etc but Ev’s will be fun too

God there some real stupidity here. No ES350v6 in UK Because It would NOT SELL. The biggest seller of any Lexus models is the 300h by massive margin IS, GS, NX, RC

GS450h Is 250 Is 20T etc sold in low numbers, there is no harping on about a lack of a model that doesn’t sell.

if your argument works why are the big 5 series models the 20d and not the 530 and 540? BMW can carry those models because of massive economies of scale.

lexus are building a niche because they cannot go head to head directly with the Germans in the UK, They are in sales figures terms niche players in the premium uk market

finally, how many of you bemoaners are driving a 3-3.5 litre NA engine car at the moment if it’s such a holy grail? You all have a luxury segment car after all

Clearly you havnt mdriven a 5 on 19 inch rims, rft and standard suspension

325 7 0-60 I owned one and and is250 and bmw quicker than that margin believe me.

so to recap, your constant slating of the ES is handling and 0-60. Yet you have a Lexus good chunk slower and less dynamic handling than the class leader equivalent. And that’s unacceptable according to you. And yet you bought one. Wierd

but there are many more realistic examples where you have to join busy road or where visibility is limited and gaps in the traffic are scarce and shorts and one needs to try to join the traffic without creating dangerous situation.

all the more reason why the ability to charge in in a fast car is all the more irrelevant

The irony of your argument is you have an is250, slower than its competitors 0-60, yet this is a major flaw in the ES?

The irony of your argument is you have an is250, slower than its competitors 0-60, yet this is a major flaw in the ES?

I think an ES can join a motorway safely. You ought to be able to join the motorway safely in any car 0-60 over 10 or not. If not I’d suggest you should have extra training. If your overtaking, worrying about being able to do so safely ought to be the only thing you worry about. You should be taking in to account the acceleration capability of your vehicle, but also.road condition, layout, markings, speed limit, visibility etc etc. And if in doubt, don’t. After all your not in a race

You stated over 10s 0-60 is dangerous for road use. So trucks vans buses etc shouldn’t be on the road by your logic. When all classes of vehicles share the roads then how do you specify just cars? If a truck can join a motorway safely limited to 56 and a 0-60 of over 10s, why can’t a car? You interact with the road by using anticipation and judgement not how fast you can hit 60 like a boy racer retard.

Sufficient performance is subjective. For many ES will be sufficient. For most public roads most of the time it is more than sufficient. I think the ES is aimed at mature self confident adults who have grown out of 0-60 will girls fancy me with a slow car mentality. 0-60 over 10s dangerous for public roads? Got an answer for how society works without vans trucks and buses? If you struggle with an IS250 then you need to look at your driving

superior build quality and materials, good level of space and equipment, attractive looks

but these matter to a lot of people more than sporty handling. If I commuted via lap of the Nürburgring then I might be bothered.  But I don’t I drive on British roads and appropriate speeds often with my children on board. Even a Ferrari is a dull drive stuck in a traffic jam

+ another for the cvt. First time I drove one (CT200h courtesy car) the big revelation was wondering what the fuss from motoring journalists was all about

Raise the headrest up, and look where the bars enter the headrest. If they go in at the front of the slots it’s all the way back. Otherwise, From the rear seat, push the headrest forward firmly, pushing forward at its base. Once as far forward as it will go , let go and It will spring back to its rearmost position. To adjust It can then be pushed forward slowly and has 3 (I think) positions it can click into

Just a thought on seat temp, are you using eco mode as this reduces air con etc to draw less from the engine so maybe seats don’t heat up as much in eco mode. I had mine on 3 bars this morning in eco and seat was planets warm for me. Maybe my botttom is more sensitive lol

The spark plugs are 60k miles item, not time

The expensive spark plug change is at 60k miles not 50k as you seem to have been told. Go on the website service details are available in the owners section I think. I also have a 250 luxury and love it. Ps I have a service plan for 5 year or over cars £29 a month fo the gs

re lack of 450h - As a fan\entusiast I agree. But Lexus is such a niche player it has to plan its products carefully. And by such a niche player, the facts are:

Current gen 450h made 700 odd sales of 3400 total (including 250, 300h and GSF) in  years 2012-2018 (to end Q1)

and the bulk of those were the early years. in 2016 on the sales of 450h was 48 - for the whole year. Or put it another way, each lexus dealer in the country sold 1 GS 450h each. You can see why they dont think its worth having a ES 450h

since 2012 lexus have sold 3398 of the current GS total -  all models

for comparison, BMW in the same period sold over 46000 520d Msport auto saloons. So not including the estate in that figure, or manuals, or non msport spec.

the whole Lexus GS range outsold only one 5 series model which has been on sale over the same period  - the most nich one, and only just - M5,  3000 sold

According to Lexus uk website sunroof is standard on base ES

 the cheapest GS that comes with BSM as standard is the F sport at £43,395. The GS premier spec is semi aniline leather @ £45k - which is odd as lesser spec models are leather

cant find any reference to privacy glass, the lexus configerator images for the base model certainly doesnt show privacy glass - GS

Had a look at the specs in more detail because I hadnt compared them myself.

In terms of base spec there isnt much in it, main difference is synthetic vs real leather, but the ES undercuts GS by £1000 so you cant expect (IMHO) it to exactly match or exceed the GS

GS has

• Lexus Safety System Plus with ACC/PCS, LKA, TSR & AHB

ES has

2nd Generation Lexus Safety Sense+ 

This comes with an improved system unit, an upgraded PCS function and new Lane Tracing Assist (LTA), while retaining the established ACC, RSA and AHB functions.

So ES has better safety kit as standard. Both have 17" wheels, parking sensors, DAB, NAV smart entry, heated and electric seats, 

Summary - base models

ES has over GS:

new gen hybrid drive

Sunroof

Privacy glass

improved safety kit

but is missing:

real leather vs synthetic

has 8" screen vs 12" screen

but for £1000 less.