DieterML

Hi, Some interesting comments (especially resale values) re- supply of hybrid to dealers in USA (I believe) here: http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3219 Don't know how this relates to supply in UK but..... Cheers, Dieter

Hi, There is some more up to date info on (USA) 400h here: http://www.autosite.com/Previews/2005-lexus-rx-400h.asp This claims fuel economy of 27.6mpg (USA galls) and quotes electric motors boost power by 40 bhp (see previous posts :winky: ). Cheers, Dieter

Hi, It seems Ford (USA) have beaten Lexus to sell first hybrid SUV (Ford Escape) : http://motortrend.com/features/news/raw_11...0917fordhybrid/ I wonder if Ford are worried about the electric motors getting wet? :winky: (see previous thread). Cheers, Dieter

Hi Atok, Have had an ML for over 2 years now. I agree with Colin, get a 24h test drive for both. Lexus is better on road but probably not as flexible as ML overall (off-road/seating/space etc.). I've not had any problems with build quality (no more nor less than Lexus from what I've read) nor with Stealer (Mercedes Dartford). Also I've averaged 28.5mpg (which is (probably)some 5-6mpg better than Lexus). There are 'good deals' on the ML at moment even though the new ML won't be here till next summer. You "makes yer choice and you pays your money". Cheers,

Hi, At 1 or 2 cars per Dealer per month I suspect you're looking at an early 2006 delivery. It's certainly not going to get much better (cf XC90 etc.). Best to get in line though (what's the loss of £50 or so interest) especially as you'll be able to get some 'real' feedback on the 400h from (future) owners to complement your (future) test drive etc.. Cheers,

Hi Nige, Ask your Dealer to confirm (in writing) your place in the queue. This will give you some idea of delivery time (see above) from when the 400h is (actually) available. I assume Lexus will 'drip feed' them (cf X5/XC90 etc.) continually? Cheers, Dieter

Hi all, Colin, I'm not an engineer but I think the disparity in total (electric + petrol) power outputs comes from the fact that the electric motors can never operate at full power (for more than seconds) as the battery drain would be too severe. Hence 232 total electric bhp equates to 60 or so 'real' bhp (giving combined real output of 270bhp). However this is fine for 'boosting' petrol power (0-60) and to run 'electric' 4wd system etc. Some other hybrid competitors (due next year) could be Merc S-class (more expensive but also without off road capability), new R-class (also more expensive) and possibly new M-class (see this weeks Auto Express). It appears that Lexus are currently leading the way but Mercedes are 'hot on their heels'? :winky: Cheers, Dieter

Hi Colin, I'll concede those electric motor figures to you. My apologies. I'm sure I read somewhere that they were 25 bhp 'apiece'. Still can't fathom out why the addition of 232 bhp + 208 bhp = 270 (limited) bhp. Surely the optimum situation would be to have a smaller engine 'servicing' those two electric motors? Mercedes will also be making the new M-class available with the 4ltr V8 twin turbo CDi engine (300bhp/500nM torque @ => 27 mpg) which should give the 400h a 'run' for its money.. IMHO 4 x 4 SUVs are not really about speed B) but we all appreciate some performance especially if it's (relatively) cheap (cf Cayenne turbo NOT). As I've said before the 400h is an interesting and ground breaking car and I look forward to 'real' info etc. Cheers, Dieter PS As an 'outsider' I'm more concerned with objectivity than rhetoric

Hi all, Colin, I think you'll find that the electric motors have no where near those power outputs. So you are claiming 232 'electric' bhp and 208 'petrol' hp which is going to be limited to 270bhp combined . I recall seeing 2 x 25 bhp on Lexus site. Government figures for hybrid vehicles (apparently) always overestimate fuel economy (nature of test which is (not purposely) biased towards electric motor) and 'real-life' figures are always lower. This 'bandying about' of mpg figures is rubbish. I'm waiting to see what the real figures are/will be and then I'll choose which 4 x 4 to 'go for'. That's assuming that the penalty for owning a 4 x4 hasn't become 'death by stoning' ( K.livingstone and his environmentalist cronies seem to have a big downer on 4 x 4's.). Perhaps a fwd 400h will escape this stigma? :winky: Cheers, Dieter

Hi all, There seems to be a strong feeling that the 400h will give superior fuel mileage. However a direct comparison between petrol/hybrid and diesel has been carried out by the Times : see http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0...1235584,00.html On this basis the 400h will be great if you potter round town but perhaps not so economical if you use M-ways etc. These sort of findings have also been noted before. As for direct competitors (flame suit on) the 400h will be predominantly front wheel drive (i.e. 225bhp engine + 25bhp electric motor at front and only 25bhp electric motor at rear. So around town will be a 50bhp 4wd and pushing it will give an 11:1 fwd bias. So will the 400h be a '4x4 at all :winky: ? Perhaps the new M-class ('fall' 05) with 218bhp V6 diesel will (eventually) prove to be an able competitor (for 400h?) . Cheers, Dieter

Hi, Had my ML 'Superguarded' so I know it doesn't prevent stone chips etc. It does make it easier to keep clean (birds mess etc.) but I don't think it's any better than frquent polishing. So if you're on the lazy side it might be worth it! Cheers, Dieter

Hi LaTent, I've had an ML (270CDi) for over 2 years now and have averaged 28mpg. In fact on a recent trip back from Scotland (sticking to speed limits etc.) I travelled 580 miles on a tankful. Could have got 600 (a la RX400h?) but 'bottled it' as trip computer doesn't count down to zero (just indicates fuel required). Might not be as good an 'on road' drive as RX but I find it acceptable. Cheers, Dieter

Hi, Could this also reflect current fuel 'crisis' as until rx400h is available Lexus hasn't a (more) fuel efficient (diesel?) option, unlike BMW, Volvo etc. Cheers, Dieter

Hi all, For 'piccie' of interior of rx400h clich here: http://www.carpages.co.uk/lexus/lexus_the_..._3_21_05_04.asp Cheers, Dieter

Hi all, So, is the 20% improvement in fuel efficiency quoted by Mercedes more realistic than that implied by Lexus? We'll just have to wait and see :winky: Whatever that outcome the rx400h is/(will be) a revolutionary product and Lexus deserves to succeed with it. Still don't really like its 'looks' (especially front end) though ? Cheers, Dieter PS Ian, I was very reluctant to access your "link" but I did.

Hi all, So what? Most of those links refer to the pre-facelift model which was universally criticised. A car is just a car, surely NOT an object of 'love' (Lexus owners please comment!)? I like (driving) my ML and I am looking objectively for a replacement (at the appropriate time) be it Mercedes, Lexus or Lada!!!. I don't believe I've 'slagged off' Lexus and have agreed that there have been problems with Mercs etc. (primarily since merger/take over of Chrysler). It seeme the insecurities lie with you Lexus 'lovers'! . As to Lexus being 'perfect' you've only got to read the other postings on page 1 (adaptive damping failure, paintwork problems etc.) Need I go on :winky: ? Any way it's nice to see a response!! Cheers, Dieter

Hi Ian, "you wait for your Merc, I am sure they will have improved their JD Power result by then too" If I replace my current ML I will (probably) choose between the new ML (diesel) and rx400h, hence my interest on this site. However as it's my own money I'll have to part with, (perceived) residual values will (have to) play a prominent role in my final choice. So will the hybrid technology be able to 'even up' (to) Merc residuals etc.? I agree with you re JD survey etc as build quality/customer service is probably at its lowest for Mercedes for many years (impressions from Merc web sites etc.). However new models (E-class, SLK etc.) appear to be addressing these problems and my impression is that improvements are underway. My discussions points have mainly focussed on practicalities of running hybrid systems etc. (i.e. response times if (petrol) engine off etc.). Whilst Ford may be licensing Toyota system(s) I don't believe Mercedes are e.g placement of electric motor is different (see site on first posting) and it's linked to a diesel engine (unlike the Toyota system). I am genuinely interested in the 400h but would like to see some real figures (a la Mercedes which states a 20% improvement in diesel fuel economy). If the final (i.e. 'on the road') combined fuel consumption figures for 400h are increased by = to or > 50% then that will be impressive!!! , but I'm afraid I won't believe it till I 'see' it. Cynically a petrol hybrid is just another way of Toyota obtaining 'diesel-like' fuel consumption figures (albeit it with reduced emissions etc) from a petrol engine, (e.g = to Merc 400CDi) especially as Lexus are the only marque (4 x 4 sales) without a diesel option (which take a high proportion of BMW, Volvo, Merc etc. 4 x 4 sales). Any way this RX300 site get so few postings (one a day?) that I thought I'd try to 'liven it up' a bit :winky: Cheers, Dieter

Hi Ian, Your'e absolutely right :D and if you convert to uk gallons (i.e. x 1.202) this equates to 32.1mpg, which is b....y good for a 3.3ltr petrol engine (but still not as good as the more powerful Merc 4.0 diesel hybrid!). As to Toyota 'owning' the technology, "all" (simplistically) a hybrid system requires is an engine (petrol/diesel), a battery, an electric motor (surely not patented by Toyota?) and software to co-ordinate the system. I wouldn't think that Toyota could have patented these components though their software expertise is (probably) the most advanced. I agree the 400h is a groundbreaking car but it won't be on its 'own' for long. Petrol engines are intrisically less fuel efficient than diesels (though more 'refined') and as diesels are/become as refined (as petrol engines) then diesel/hybrids must be a good way to go. Cheers, Dieter

Hi again, Do Toyota 'own' hybrid technology? I think not though they do have more practical experience(s): Prius etc. There is more info on the rx400h @ http://www.autosite.com/Previews/2005-lexus-rx-400h.asp Fuel consumption (combined) quoted at 26.7 mpg which, coincidentally, happens to be a 20% (approx) increase in fuel efficiency (same as that quoted by Mercedes!!). A diesel/hybrid engine will be an option for the new Mercedes R-class (GST as was). This is a 4.0 ltr twin turbo + 50 BHP (or so) electric motor giving over 300bhp (combined) and 33 mpg (but far more expensive!!). Cheers, Dieter

Hi again, Mercedes also quote the performance benefits of the extra power of the electric motor but don't make such bold claims regarding fuel economy. If the 600 mile figure relates to cruising at 56mph then I could do that right now (boring!! and probably dangerous) with my Diesel! Lexus claims fuel economy of an average saloon and it will be interesting to get the 'real' figures (a la Mercedes). What is certain though, is the the 400h will be both more powerful AND more fuel efficient than the current 300. As to depreciation, I would agree with you that it should hold its price better than the current model (especially in London with C-charge etc.) but will it compare with the 'new' M-class (due mid 2005)? My concern with the engine warming up was that this is the most fuel unefficient time for petrol engine use (especially on a freezing winters day which will also 'challenge' battery output). This is why I felt the engine (petrol) would have to be in 'idle mode' whilst warming up etc. and that the system could be more flexible once the engine was warm. Thanks for the feedback and I'll continue 'watching this space' to see how the 400h develops. Cheers, Dieter

Hi all (again), Thanks for the feedback but I am aware of this info. My points are more practical in nature. So do you really think the Hybrid will show a 65% reduction in fuel consumption (i.e. from 21.7 to 36.4 mpg)? especially as Mercedes are only claiming 20% i.e. rx400h, under normal mixed driving conditions, will average 26mpg? How is the (petrol) engine warmed up from cold (especially in winter)? If you drive in 30mph limit for a while (i.e. locally) will this be all electrically powered? The engine (petrol) has to be started sometime and hence it will 'warm up' (I suppose). When will the petrol engine 'fire up'. Once it's warm (petrol engine) then I can see how the system may work (except for M-way cruising). If you're on the M-way and the engine is the prime motive power how does that tie in with such a decreased fuel consumption (i.e. should approach 'cruising' 27mpg). In fact, maintenance of cruising speed requires v little power and could be maintained by the electric motor, but if engine is off how quick can system respond? My understanding is that the electrical motor supplies power when the petrol engine is at its least efficient (i.e. low revs/torque etc.) and the petrol engine/regenerative braking recharges the battery. The petrol engine can recharge the battery whilst idling (cf alternators etc. which always charge) I am not 'knocking' Lexus, I am genuinely interested in how the car really works. Cheers, Dieter PS I do know that electric motors don't require oil!!!! and I think the Merc battery was water cooled

Hi all, The new 400h looks (very) interesting but I would like to make an objective comment . There is some data on a Mercedes Diesel hybrid (ML270CDi) which claims 20% improvement in fuel economy (see www.whnet.com/4x4/hybrid.html). Combined fuel consumption figures (posted by Lexus) are 21.7 mpg. Given that fuel tank is 16.5 gal (approx) then to get '600miles on a tank full' fuel consumption would have to increase to 36.4mpg. This is an increase of 68%! . Sounds too good to be true? Even assuming a 'cruising' average of 27mpg this would still require an increase of 35%. How does this hybrid system really work. I assume that when you start up from cold the engine (petrol) is also started (so it can warm up etc.), unless the oil is heated and pumped around the engine electrically (unlikely I would have thought). If your cruising on the motorway will the engine be off? etc or will it need to be 'ticking over' so that if you wish to accelerate rapidly you will get a 'rapid' response etc. I look forward to some more 'solid' information on this car. Cheers, Dieter So does the petrol engine need to be ticking over (at least) all the time?