doog442

28 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

And how this all relates to KWH costing £4? Well that is simply reminder that having EV is not guaranteed escape from this extortion. Some early EV adopters are surprised, because they paid premium and have to live with inconvenience of EV, but they thought they did so to make it better for the society. Yet few years later they are thrown back together with "scum of society" (that is motorists according to vegetables) and treated just as poorly as any other motorists. Then they are surprised and enraged - don't be... all the taxes and discrimination was never about pollution, it has always been just rhetoric to justify taxing some more than others.   

 

Norway. They taxed the hell out of ICE and offered EV at bargain prices and it was the panacea of EV - oh look at us.  Now they need a hole filling in their budget and its all those EV drivers who will pay for it. Clearly they can't do it on household electricity bills so prepare to bend over and be shafted. 

Expect the same to happen here. 

A vehicle with a registration plate is a Government cash cow and always has been no matter how it's powered.  The future surely must be on mileage. 

5 minutes ago, Moleman said:

Yawn.

Nice one, lets move on.👍 

This is getting slightly weird. Linas and I go back years Maurice and we've had a few ding dongs in the past. That said he's a long standing and respected member of the forum for those who don't have him on ignore  

Seriously he's good value and his Lexus knowledge is second to none (kind of ) even though we disagree on the attributes of a Lexus 4 pot 

Deep down we share the same values, would love to see an RC350 on these shores and despair at the move to go hybrid across the board....we also both think your car is crap but would never say it to your face, well I wouldn't 

Move on fella, its not a popularity contest. 

40 minutes ago, Moleman said:

He just does not see what he is doing and how he sounds, Completely locked into Tribalism, Two wheels good four wheels bad.  😇

You've found a very good comrade with Linas ...he will suit your agenda to the full bless him.  

This two wheels good four wheels bad  and tribalism nonsense is just that.  I am a motorists who cycles AND a cyclist who drives. I mean why the hell would I be a member of a Lexus forum for 15 years...yes I love a straight six / V6 and one day it will be a V8 !!. I'm also a pedestrian who drives and a pedestrian who happens to cycle.  

You however appear to be a stuck record. 

3 hours ago, Malc said:

I suggest maybe the HGVs are super taxed especially at the border where they arrive from the EU .... a super tax to either cover their costs of damage to our BRITISH roads or just to keep the imports down from the EU and elsewhere that arrive by HGV 

Malc

Haha, seriously though UK trucks pay a hell of a lot of tax I understand. I feel I'm walking on eggshells on this thread with some but if I offered up an increase in rail freight to help reduce traffic, emissions, stress on roads / buildings and our health then I'd get mullered asking who's going to fill that big fat VED void 

2 hours ago, Moleman said:

So it was personal. That is sad. I did not say I wanted to tax cyclists I said why should they not be part of the discussion. Perhaps you should read the post rather than keep expressing your problem with me and anyone who appears not to fall inline with everything you say. Really sad. 😥 Anyway thanks to just about everyone else who while having many different views on here managed to find areas of agreement without being aggressive.

My problem with you ...I had no idea who you were until you started spamming my posts with sad emojis. I think I may have replied to a few of your posts since but certainly don't have an issue with you. You do come over as anti cycling everything, often hanging onto every negative cycling post but hey ho its the internet and as you said people are entitled to their views. 

If you're getting upset over a little emoji (that was in no way aggressive) then there's a very good ignore function that could save you from that future trauma  

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

That is cute - car related goods and services are estimated to be ~£150 billion, that excludes VED and fuel duty. So by the same token cars pays for themselves? why tax them further. And this is typical trialist argument and both sides.

Sadly none of us will know what % of of our taxes, VAT, company taxes fuel duty etc goes where. Trust me as someone who pays £500 a year VED I'd like to think it went on sorting out my pot holed street but of course it doesn't. 

37 minutes ago, Moleman said:

Thanks, some useful points expressed. Of course the value of the motor industry and the use of cars far exceeds any other area you may wish to offer for comparison. Still not answered the question, what was sad about my post, was there anything you found sad in the post? Or was it just personal? Does not matter which, but why not just own it! Love the gun by the way🤣.l

I think its sad that you want to tax or charge cyclists, hence the emoji, quite simple really. 

2 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

The dog food industry in the UK is worth half as much again as the cycling industry (so size doesn't matter) yet I see no industry lobby for owning more dogs. Yet the physical and mental benefits for people are well known. As to the tax raising amounts from employees, well that's the same point on-line firms Amazon et al and are using and get hammered for it 😎

Not if they're jack Russells  ...nah love 'em really. Dog ownership has apparently gone through the roof with Covid for the reasons you give I guess, we certainly see more about and more dogs mess. Unfortunately I can see our local dog home overflowing when people start returning to work or we'll have a hell of a lot of stressed out, stuck at home dogs.   

47 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

Uh-oh. I sense the pin is out and the grenade is rolling slowly across the forum…

…who will jump on it to save us all from that debate again?! 🤣

@ganzoom is also a keen cyclist I believe and works in the NHS to boot and...... cycles to work. Gang let me introduce you to Malc and Maurice   

27 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Fag packet maths, 655,000 x av UK salary of 28k =? 

VAT on cycle goods was more my point, I think its actually quite poorly paid btw but no idea on that. 

1 hour ago, Moleman said:

Dear Doog442, thank you for the acknowledgement of my post quoted above, just out of curiosity and so I do not mistake your response as tribalism; what was sad? Having read your other posts on this forum subject, lets accept you are correct and we need to increase the use of cycles and decrease the use of ICE on the roads, this works and ICE users are taken off the road in large numbers and cyclists become the majority users of the infrastructure. Bliss it would seem. However, please enlighten us as to whom you believe, should, will, and would be willing to make up the shortfall in taxation if the majority users at that  wonderful time - Cyclists - should never be considered or expected to be asked? 

Waiting with anticipation. 🤣 

I offered a reply to Linas before reading your post on the value of the UK cycling Industry. I've actually done a bit more research and the VAT on the sales of UK cycling goods exceeds the £338 million active travel budget (building of more cycle lanes), so in effect you could argue cycling is paying for itself .

In relation to paying for the shortfall in taxation I doubt that you would ever see such a substantial increase in cycling that you could argue it was having any impact on reducing the number of vehicles on the road. As long as the public transport network is so poor people will always need cars. Actually there are more cars on the road than ever in the UK, despite there being more cyclists than ever, work that one out. 

If you were to look at miles travelled by road users including freight, cycling is estimated at 1% of miles accumulated by all road users (and much of that on cycle lanes). So 99% plus of road use is undertaken by mechanically propelled vehicles. 

To put things into context the Netherlands may have the highest number of cyclists and the best infrastructure ever but car ownership and use is also higher than ever. 

So to sum up any shortfall should come from those who do the most mileage. Wear and tear on roads and motorways (and their subsequent upkeep ) doesn't come from 700 c 28mm tyres, it comes from 40 ton HGV's and 32.7 million cars.

Happy to help 

On 1/28/2022 at 10:10 AM, Malc said:

I so so rarely complain ....  I just feel that cyclists as Road Users should be paying some sort of Govt Road Tax for using the road too ...  

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I don't think suggestion to VED bicycles was ever said or taken seriously by anyone. However, I think it just works as example - if roads are "privilege" which I don't believe they are, then all the users should be paying for that privilege, why only the car drivers should be contributing? Or at least I thought that was a gist of it.

Linas. Malc mentioned it (see above quote). That said I broadly agree with the rest of your comments on not taxing minority groups.

Incidentally the 'cycling industry' is worth several billion ££££. Fag packet maths suggests £462 million in VAT was paid on cycling goods in 2020, so in effect cycling sales are taxed I guess. Likewise 655,000 work in the cycling economy, they pay tax so it all goes into 'the pot'. You never know but perhaps that figure paid the cost of some of this cycling 'infrastructure' that's being developed. Just a thought for the naysayers.  

11 hours ago, Malc said:

it's been there for me at the  " point of need "  instantaneous.........  with my cancer radiotherapy and operation .......... the 1.5 million employees all do a tremendous job for sure .......  my nephew is a heart surgeon Consultant and works his bollocks off saving peoples lives every day ........ employ more and the peripheral waiting lists might come down for sure .........  " point of need "  is catered for well within the capacity of the NHS  ............... NHS 1.75 million employees and all will be dealt with instantaneously I'm sure ..  the waiting list will vanish  .........  let's all pay a little more to achieve that eh ! 

So VED for cyclists might help ease the NHS waiting lists then 

Most other countries the " point of need " passes and one just dies without the personal wealth to jump the Qs😵

Malc

I hope you're making a full recovery Malc. 

Your average hospital bike sheds looks like downtown Amsterdam, if they're not there they are among the literally thousands of bicycles at every commuter station, then folk walk in. My lads at Uni, medical Uni actually and their bike sheds are rammed. Yet you want to VED these poor sods who like most of us are looking at the cheapest way to get to work, school, Uni, hospitals and everywhere else.  I'd wager most cycling is people getting to work and trying to save a few bob.  Not just Universities but schools / colleges / polytechnics and you seriously want to VED them  ?   

These threads are interesting, enlightening and eventful however I think some folk seriously underestimate how many people actually commute to their jobs. It's got to be a good thing surely, not just for the environment (less cars, less emissions), peoples pockets and also their health.  

Perhaps as motorists we can campaign for VED to actually be spent on roads. 

Sold ! Nice looking car, I was half tempted.

1 hour ago, BillNick said:

Possibly yes, or the mileage.

5 + owners as well although I guess at that age you buy on condition. There's also 'vehicle sold as seen' in the description, you don't usually see that in an advert unless its something on eBay. I get that you may well put it in the paperwork when selling privately but rarely in a £30k ad. 

Plus the issue of finance on a private sale, clearly dealers aren't interested (see below)  

1 hour ago, Pielight said:

They seem to be hanging about longer now. Perhaps prices are slowly beginning to normalise.

I've noticed this, with other marques some of the big online dealers seem to have become over saturated in certain segments. Things usually tend to pick up in late January but these are weird times. 

7 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

I find myself hurrying up if a car appears as I'm crossing, not because I feel I'm wrong, but out of a sense of courtesy. I even walk a little quicker than normal on a zebra crossing, for the same reason. Nothing annoys me more than when I stop at a crossing and the person waiting to cross dawdles across, playing with their phone. It's just plain bad manners.

I'm of the generation that can't dawdle and play with a phone, I need to stop and play with it. I'm sure its an acquired art by youngsters to do both things at the same time, notwithstanding both activities seem to cut them off from the outside world as you suggest. The Highway code is specific in its instructions to pedestrians on how to cross a road not that any of us are obliged to read it which kind of defeats the object. My daughter teaches primary school children, I'll ask her what if anything they're taught about road safety nowadays and how they'll approach these new rules.   

1 hour ago, VFR said:

I also found it strange that it went Pedestrian - Cyclist - Horse Rider, when to my mind the horse rider should be after the pedestrian as you can never be quite sure what a horse will decide to do (well I guess so)

Its probably based on risk, number of accidents, Injuries and deaths. 

My guess is the word hierarchy has rattled a few cages. No matter what, we are all pedestrians. So as a pedestrian I assume there will be a point blank refusal to entertain these new rules from the learned members who have expressed their disproval.

Will you simply stand on the kerb and give way...confusing the hell out of motorists who are actually complying with the new rules ? Personally I can't wait to give it a go. Of absolute importance to my safety ( and the no claims discount of said victim motorist )  will be eye contact, an acknowledgement and a thankyou. 

That said, today I was almost run down when halfway across a road when visiting the hospital..note halfway and the driver should have slowed down but didn't and that is a longstanding rule...how many of us step into a road when its safe and clear only to end up skipping across quickly as if we're somehow in 'the wrong'. 

I've tried it a couple of times just for the hell of it and had no reply to the first. With the second they got back to me eventually but had no record of the offer, simply that I'd made an enquiry and they were calling me back. This made me wonder about the lines of communication. I guess the offer / details are received elsewhere and forwarded to the relevant dealer where it may or may not be picked up.

The cynic in me tells me its simply a tool to generate interest and for them to get your details and take it from there. Traditionally Lexus tend not to reduce their screen price much unless its on their terms, so an offer would have to be very close to the advertised price, notwithstanding most people would actually want to view the car first.  

12 minutes ago, Moleman said:

Wise words Malcolm, perhaps if one particular user chose to take a step back and look at their posts; they may see that taking a less “two wheels good – four wheels bad“, preaching approach to everyone on the forum, would probably be more productive. Respect to anyone with a lifelong passion and interest in any issue (I have my own subjects close to my heart), but sometimes we also must accept that others may not only have a different view or opinion to us, but that they may also be correct whatever we believe.

Perhaps we should move on from the rights and wrongs of cycle use in the UK? 😊

It takes two to tango Maurice. I only stick my head above the parapet when two wheeled users get routinely accused of being cretins / lycra louts and so on. 

This forum never used to be a cycling bashing institution and its important to realise that not all members share the same views as three of four of the usual posters. Thanks for all of your odd little emojis on nearly every post of mine (to which I have reciprocated) however I much prefer face to face discussion. It's clear that you don't fully read my posts and have a perception of me. That's fine, for your information I also drive a 321 bhp, straight six (very fast ) car so the "two wheels good - four wheels bad"  ideology is extremely misplaced.

Toodlepip  

8 minutes ago, Malc said:

c'mon guys, lighten up on all this ... cyclists will always get mown down by cars and vans and trucks  .......  it's called " sport " surely 

Malc

Can we leave Rochester High Street out of it malc ... I'll stop with the teenage boys and basket thing, someone might think I have an unhealthy obsession with it🤣..

Anyway I think we've done it to death now.

1 hour ago, Phil xxkr said:

That's a lot of non sequiturs, from lauding a countries infrastructure to highlighting teenage lads only to school run mothers, no discernable connection whatsoever. Of much more interest might be explaining why the Netherlands has the second highest and increasing death rate for cyclists. Or why Ireland is first? 

Notwithstanding the alleged non sequiturs directly relate to comments made in dutchies post to which I was replying I'd argue they're relevant and connected. He mentions children riding to school in rural areas, which from my experience includes teenage boys on bikes with baskets supporting his view that bicycles are seen simply as a mode of transport - nothing else. This is only possible because they have the infrastructure of dedicated cycling lanes or suitable infrastructure. This mass of children cycling results in less vehicles undertaking school journeys, so less school run mums. .

In relation to death rates if more people take part in an activity of any sort that carries a risk however slight, you're more than likely to have a higher accident or death rate. 

Netherlands death rate per miles ridden is far less than the UK, they have however seen an increase amongst older folk riding E bikes. This is blamed on the speed of the damned things (yes I'm not really a fan) and an over confidence in their ability to ride them. Having witnessed it I'd agree. 

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

 In the countryside bikes have always been transport nothing else. Groups of schoolchildren biking 15/20 km one way as school is in the next village is still common. 

 

My last cycling trip to the Netherlands was in 2019 camping all the way .Hook to Utrecht. Onto Vordern via Arnhem, into Germany via Winterswijk . I returned via Kleve. Nijmegan, Zaltbommel , Dordrecht , Rotterdam and Hook. I'm not sure I even went on a road but when I did drivers are a different breed than here....you are very lucky to have such a wonderful infrastructure.    

The school runs were enlightening.  Teenage lads simply didn't care they were on 'a sit up and beg ' as we call them ..with a basket of all things - just a mode of transport I guess. That would never happen here as it simply isn't 'cool' . Instead we still have a culture of school run mums clogging up the roads at 8am and 3pm. 

34 minutes ago, malcolmw said:

For years we got told "stop. look and listen before you cross the street" and the Green Cross man told us to stop at the kerb. This has seemingly now been thrown out in this latest guidance. 

I guess the onus has been put on the motorist now as well as the pedestrian (but I would still keep that  green cross advice for kids).  When turning into a side road slow, observe and give way to pedestrians or cyclists (if shared path) who wish to cross the street (my words btw), it doesn't seem that difficult. The suggestion further up the page that people might be flinging themselves like lemmings in front of traffic is a little far fetched .I mean who crosses at a zebra crossing for example without actually double checking that cars have actually stopped, you simply cannot just walk into a road under most circumstances.

The new advice for pedestrians

When you are crossing or waiting to cross the road, other traffic should give way. Look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you, and cross at a place where drivers can see you. If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way (see Rules H2 and 170).

Pedestrians have always had priority once they've started to cross a road, yet its amazing how many drivers have absolutely no idea of this.

People simply don't like change yet this principle works very well in other countries. As a pedestrian its quite refreshing.

Here's an excellent piece from the Guardian and I like this part : Many changes just formalise basic courtesy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/24/common-myths-about-what-uk-highway-code-changes-will-mean