What battery type is this

[Deezell]

What 12v Battery is this, wet or AGM. In my newly acquired 2018 LS500H, it has a dead cell. Battery finders all say replace with AGM,  but this doesn't look like an AGM. I can't find those Yuasa codes anywhere. It looks like original equipment, yuasa finder in New Zealand alone says it may be AGM or Wet. If AGM, I must replace with AGM. Not covered in 12 months used warranty, but I might challenge that as issues and faults appeared within a fortnight, which I diagnosed without going back the 250km to the dealer.

[AWC]

4 hours ago, Deezell said:

What 12v battery is this, wet or AGM. In my newly acquired 2018 LS500H, it has a dead cell. Battery finders all say replace with AGM,  but this doesn't look like an AGM. I can't find those Yuasa codes anywhere. It looks like original equipment, yuasa finder in New Zealand alone says it may be AGM or Wet. If AGM, I must replace with AGM. Not covered in 12 months used warranty, but I might challenge that as issues and faults appeared within a fortnight, which I diagnosed without going back the 250km to the dealer.

It's a conventional lead/acid Battery.

[Herbie]

5 hours ago, Deezell said:

What 12v battery is this, wet or AGM. In my newly acquired 2018 LS500H, it has a dead cell. Battery finders all say replace with AGM,  but this doesn't look like an AGM. I can't find those Yuasa codes anywhere. It looks like original equipment, yuasa finder in New Zealand alone says it may be AGM or Wet. If AGM, I must replace with AGM. Not covered in 12 months used warranty, but I might challenge that as issues and faults appeared within a fortnight, which I diagnosed without going back the 250km to the dealer.

If it's got six removable plugs on the top it's wet - you take those plugs out to top up with deionised water. No plugs means it's AGM.

[Deezell]

3 hours ago, Herbie said:

If it's got six removable plugs on the top it's wet - you take those plugs out to top up with deionised water. No plugs means it's AGM.

No, thats not true. Wet batteries can be sealed, not just AGM, Absorbent Glass Mat, sometimes called Gel. Sealed batteries have a pressure relief valve inside and a little vent hole on the top narrow side, into which you plug a little drain tube that's in the Battery compartment.

I've since found this Yuasa literature attached which is almost correct for the Battery, except one of the labels says Y6 instead of S6, as S6 could easily be AGM version of Y6, I just don't know. The '400LN5-MF' is 400 cranking amps in an LN5 sized casing, with MF, maintenance  free. LN5 is equivalent to the 019 size Battery casing, 190Hx175Wx335L. I'm inclined to agree it is just a normal lead acid, the car would be the very first generation that launched late 2017, registered new in feb 2018. It may well be the case that AGM became standard shortly after. The yuasa UK finder site lists two AGM as suitable, with the warning that original AGM must be replaced by AGM. The NZ finder though indicates either were fitted. This particular car could well be common to the NZ spec, ( I'm in Ireland, so km and rhd same as Japan, NZ etc). Anyway, I had a used AGM of exactly that size from my previous 2015 A6 Quattro, still serviceable, and holding 12.6 volts lying around (used as lawnmower jump starter). I put that in this morning. The LS doesn't use the 12v Battery for anything other than system startup, and accessories. Its charged from the hybrid at a set 14.1 volts, which is a maintenance level voltage for AGM. It doesn't crank the engine, the hybrid motor does that, and all the stop/starts during driving. I'll see how it goes until the main dealer finds a definitive answer. I can get a LN5 size 85AH standard Battery for €100, AGM for €200.

Y6_for_General_passenger_cars.pdf

[BigBoomer]

You need an AGM Battery with 85AH capacity, 800CCA, and the posts and polarity in the correct places.
That may be a "Wet" Battery or an EFB (Enhanced Flooded Battery, sort of half-way between wet & AGM) but AGM is strongly recommended for all Stop-Start engine systems even if yours doesn't use it for that, and AGM are generally better quality and more reliable batteries.
That Battery is 3½ years old (211017 is the manufacture date) so probably due for replacement anyways.

[Deezell]

14 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

You need an AGM battery with 85AH capacity, 800CCA, and the posts and polarity in the correct places.
That may be a "Wet" battery or an EFB (Enhanced Flooded Battery, sort of half-way between wet & AGM) but AGM is strongly recommended for all Stop-Start engine systems even if yours doesn't use it for that, and AGM are generally better quality and more reliable batteries.
That battery is 3½ years old (211017 is the manufacture date) so probably due for replacement anyways.

I guess they just recommend AGM as a replacement, to prevent charging a standard wet Battery with AGM charge settings, which could end badly. Yes, the date means that's the original Battery from October 2017 manufacture, which means it was close to 7 years old. Its in the bin anyway, I'm using an older used  AGM of the exact size and spec until I get a new one. I don't mind replacing it, if I knew for certain it's charging as an AGM, which I think it is, as the hybrid system delivers a constant 14.1 volts to it when driving. 14.1 volts is quoted on some sources as an  AGM holding/maintenence max charge voltage, but only 13.25 volts max is required for holding state on wet batteries. 14.1 volts constantly would probably shorten a wet Battery lifespan considerably.

Thanks for all the input lads, this luxury premium  spec LS500H is a beast of a car, opulent on the inside with every conceivable seat and heat adjustment (heating/cooling on all seats  and massage on three of them. Electric window roller blinds, body temperature sensors, ionised air purifier). The trim levels are astonishing. Mark Levison sound system with 23 speakers is extraordinary. Car even raises the drivers side to help you exit easier. Mad altogether, and car was heavily discounted to boot. Bargain Bucket list driving!

 

[scythe]

My understanding is that it should be an AGM Battery, because it's in the enclosed boot of the car rather than under the well ventilated bonnet. I believe (but may be wrong) that this is to reduce the chance of hydrogen gas being generated in this enclosed space.

Out of interest, and because someone else was worried about his 12 V Battery, I tried to find out what the proper replacement was, but I haven't managed.  The problem searching on Halfords and the like is that they seem to be guessing that because the car is hybrid that a stop start Battery is needed - and you're right, it doesn't because the petrol engine is started by the traction Battery using M1.  Grunt (high current!) isn't needed from the Battery, and it doesn't even need to be high capacity - all that matters is that there is no hydrogen build up.

But be aware that  I can't find this documented anywhere.

: o )

Oh, and ....

13 hours ago, Deezell said:

Car even raises the drivers side to help you exit easier.

... both side rise up - the whole car!

[donkmeister]

I've actually found Lexus and Toyota main dealers decently priced for batteries. 28800-31500 is the OEM part number for the LS500h but it isn't showing as available on Amayama (delivery cost of a Battery from Japan could be interesting!).

Definitely worth a call to your nearest dealership.

[Deezell]

5 hours ago, scythe said:

My understanding is that it should be an AGM battery, because it's in the enclosed boot of the car rather than under the well ventilated bonnet. I believe (but may be wrong) that this is to reduce the chance of hydrogen gas being generated in this enclosed space.

Out of interest, and because someone else was worried about his 12 V battery, I tried to find out what the proper replacement was, but I haven't managed.  The problem searching on Halfords and the like is that they seem to be guessing that because the car is hybrid that a stop start battery is needed - and you're right, it doesn't because the petrol engine is started by the traction battery using M1.  Grunt (high current!) isn't needed from the battery, and it doesn't even need to be high capacity - all that matters is that there is no hydrogen build up.

But be aware that  I can't find this documented anywhere.

: o )

Oh, and ....

... both side rise up - the whole car!

FWIW, these are the two yuasa recommended by the Yuasa New Zealand  finder. One AGM and one MF. The website warns that AGM must be replaced by AGM, which implies a different charge regime coding in the ECU, which is common nowadays even when you replace a Battery with the exact same, the car needs to know as its Battery Management System will have adjust the charge rate from an aged Battery to a new. Similarly, it needs to know Ah changes and type changes (if allowed).

[Deezell]

4 minutes ago, donkmeister said:

I've actually found Lexus and Toyota main dealers decently priced for batteries. 28800-31500 is the OEM part number for the LS500h but it isn't showing as available on Amayama (delivery cost of a battery from Japan could be interesting!).

Definitely worth a call to your nearest dealership.

That's a thought. I could ring the dealer to price the Battery, but I'd expect cost price as the existing one failed two weeks after sale, on a lexus approved used. If that price included coding, it might be worthwhile. The lad in Halfords who tested it's capacity at 30%, but didn't remark on the low voltage, said they code lexus when they install, €30 on top of the Battery price.

[scythe]

Really, if the Battery is failing, and it's an approved used car, I'd expect the dealer to just replace it.  Don't ask for it at cost price - just ask if they can replace it.

It's possible, of course, that the original Battery did fail earlier, and was replaced by a non-agm Battery because it was cheaper, and that this Battery has been rapidly destroyed by being mischarged.

Talk to your dealer.

: o )

[Deezell]

9 hours ago, scythe said:

Really, if the battery is failing, and it's an approved used car, I'd expect the dealer to just replace it.  Don't ask for it at cost price - just ask if they can replace it.

It's possible, of course, that the original battery did fail earlier, and was replaced by a non-agm battery because it was cheaper, and that this battery has been rapidly destroyed by being mischarged.

Talk to your dealer.

: o )

I've sent him plenty of messages and screenshots of OBD scan and multimeter readings. Garage is 150 miles away. The car has original manufacturers warranty up to 180,000 km, so I was told, subject to annual or 15,000km service, but 12v Battery was limited to 5 years so defunct. I've also got the approved used 12 month warranty, which is like an insurance policy, Ts&Cs and long list of exclusions, both batteries excluded. The hybrid Battery is covered though still by the manufacturer subject to the services. All this was explained to me, but looking through the documents, not all is written down, so I need to talk again.  I thought the same as you about the Battery, I suggested that it might have came from another car in order to get mine started, as it was laid up for two years possibly discharged. I think its the original Battery though, there isn't a greasy fingerprint on it, and the October 2017 Battery date exactly matches the production run for the 2018 launch. The Hybrid system effectively covered up the dead cell, once it gets past starting the ECU, the high voltage Battery inverter supplies the virtual alternator juice of 14.1 volts. There's no actual alternator on these engines, so sitting static with the "ignition on", a meter reads 14.1 volts at the terminals. Leave it in accessories for too long produced heavy drain warnings,  faults on startup and a couple of no starts.

I've found 5 part no's for this car Battery on 7Zap parts site. 28800-31450, 60, 70, 80 and 90. Running say 2880031480 in an Autodoc.com search produces a large selection of physically correct size batteries, 70ah or greater, mostly AGM but some EFB and lead acid also. At the same time the search says mamy 'not suitable for your LS 500h' if you've configured your car in the settings  Selecting for ones suitable for LS500h produces a different subset, again almost all AGM, different Ah and a few outliers. 

It's interesting that the handbook only mentions charging rate min and max, 5a and 15a, no mention of Battery type or coding of replacement. AGM need to be charged/maintained at a higher voltage to prevent irreversible sulphation. TBH I'll take the hit on the Battery. its only there to start the electronics and run the accessories when the hybrid system is off. With no cranking my used AGM will probably last for years if I left it there. 

A previous 2014 IS hybrid my son had here had only a tiny accessory/starting Battery, like something in a lawnmower.   It went flat parked up on holidays, had to smart charge it to get it going.

There is a procedure though in the LS handbook to overcome this. Foot hard on brake and hold the start button for 15 seconds, which must force the hybrid Battery to generate the 12v for a sufficient period to energise the ECU. Handy to know that.

  Here's 7Zap Battery parts numbers, the blanked bits are '00314'. I might as well post anything I find out here,  to benefit others searching for answers someday, so excuse the long winded replies.

[donkmeister]

From what I can see on the EPC (and backed up by Amayama), 28800-31500 is the correct Battery, so none of those would be correct.

Toyota and Lexus OEM batteries are actually labelled as Toyota and carry a Toyota part number regardless of who made them - looks like yours is branded Yuasa. A fine Battery manufacturer, but not OEM if it doesn't carry a Toyota part number.

If nothing else, asking the dealer for a price (assuming you don't want to do the long drive) you can at least ask for the correct part number and details.

ETA speaking of using AGM batteries for anything but cranking, and noting you are a Kiwi and therefore a shed owner and handy (am I wrong? 😁) I used an old 110Ah AGM Battery from a Merc, in combination with a small solar panel and controller, to rig up 12V power for lighting in my old shed. Even got a load of 12V tools and accessories like soldering iron, shopvac, USB charger and so on. Lasted years until I got a new workshop and didn't transfer it over.

[Deezell]

22 hours ago, donkmeister said:

From what I can see on the EPC (and backed up by Amayama), 28800-31500 is the correct battery, so none of those would be correct.

Toyota and Lexus OEM batteries are actually labelled as Toyota and carry a Toyota part number regardless of who made them - looks like yours is branded Yuasa. A fine battery manufacturer, but not OEM if it doesn't carry a Toyota part number.

If nothing else, asking the dealer for a price (assuming you don't want to do the long drive) you can at least ask for the correct part number and details.

ETA speaking of using AGM batteries for anything but cranking, and noting you are a Kiwi and therefore a shed owner and handy (am I wrong? 😁) I used an old 110Ah AGM battery from a Merc, in combination with a small solar panel and controller, to rig up 12V power for lighting in my old shed. Even got a load of 12V tools and accessories like soldering iron, shopvac, USB charger and so on. Lasted years until I got a new workshop and didn't transfer it over.

I ran my VIN on the Amayama site (thanks for the link) and got 4 part numbers. Two really with a digit variant.  -31450 or 51, -31470 or 71. The 50 is the smaller LN3 size, 272mm length 70ah, and the 70 is the LN5 size, my original at 353mm. 85-100ah depending on type and quality. Of the 4 numbers only 31470 produced a hit on Autodoc, and wyb it was a Yuasa non AGM, which was my original Battery. It's still saying doesn't fit my car on Autodoc though it definitely will.

[scythe]

On 4/10/2024 at 8:17 AM, Deezell said:

There is a procedure though in the LS handbook to overcome this. Foot hard on brake and hold the start button for 15 seconds, which must force the hybrid battery to generate the 12v for a sufficient period to energise the ECU. Handy to know that.

Thanks for pointing this out - I hadn't known about this. It may come in handy one day.  (And yes, I've not read all of the handbook!)

: o )

[Deezell]

Interestingly, and as a footnote to this, I've discovered that the recommended Battery,  of which Yuasa YBX3019 is one, is an SMF or sealed maintenance free Calcium plate Battery.  This might explain some of the confusion between AGM and Wet,  Sealed gel,  and these patricular type.  The holding charge volatge is on a par with AGM,  so Battery should not be damaged.  The originalBatter in my first post was designate S6,  I presume now this meant SMF.

[scythe]

Thanks for that follow up. In my last car, the first Battery lasted til it was 11 years old or so, so I'm hoping for a good few years from mine.

I sensed that when the time comes, I wouldn't be sure that a dealership would necessarily be able to source a correct Battery - it's good to be pre-armed with information.

: o )

[Deezell]

On 4/22/2024 at 2:00 PM, scythe said:

Thanks for that follow up. In my last car, the first battery lasted til it was 11 years old or so, so I'm hoping for a good few years from mine.

I sensed that when the time comes, I wouldn't be sure that a dealership would necessarily be able to source a correct battery - it's good to be pre-armed with information.

: o )

I've just received confirmation from GS-Yuasa UK that my original Battery is indeed a Calcium Lead Acid. There is also a small label on it with Toyota references, so it's not an aftermarket Battery, but is definitely the original from 2018 new registration with an October 2017 manufacture date.

They independently advise the YBX3019 as a replacement, also a calcium lead acid. I can now seek a replacement, the Halfords  S019 calcium is particularly good value, coming in at €98 with trade card. I can be confident that the charging voltage  is safe for this also, as calcium require a higher maintaining voltage similar to AGM.  The preponderance of AGM only advice is no doubt down to the start stop facility, overlooking the different technology used in this hybrid. Happy days, I keep finding new stuff on this car to delight me.