Mixed Martial Arts (mma)

[Lexmas]

Sounds like nasty stuff. I was once taught a bit of Tae Kwon-Do from a Russian military man. He had a special insignia on his Dobok, so I wonder whether they are taught TKD as well. Russian Sambo is probably at a far more advanced level than this chap ever got to though.

I would certainly reccommend JuJitsu for groundwork, I think JuJitsu can take you darker places than Judo. However, if you only have minor experience with grappling and groundwork (in the Dojo I mean!), I suggest you have a quick look at Judo, as you will learn more faster than you will with JuJitsu.

Happy practicing!

[jasper]

The best and closest places to Leyland are going to be either in Preston where there is a guy teaching Gracie Ju-Jitsu but he only does Friday 6-8.30

By far the best are the ones in Manchester (about 30mins from u)

one is 'defence unlimited' at 'straight blast gym' with carl tanswell being the instructor and does everthing from bjj to vale tudo with classes most nights, he would be very good as one of his students taught me at defence unlimited stockport.

Also there is gracie barra at manchester with carl fisher who is also supposed to be the dogs

Hope this helps

[Pip]

Lexmas: I really, really doubt TKD is used in sambo, maybe a little usage of the power in strikes but i know there wont be any TWD influence. TWD is after all effective as an exhibition art, visually very pleasing, sambo is ugly. Sambo lifted all the best bits from the eastern arts, stripped them of the esoteric bits and 'prettiness' and used the core aim of them. A bit like what the great Bruce Lee did with his Jeet Kun Do system.

For example: If we were in grapple distance (too close) a lot of arts would emphasise to gain distance to be out of striking range and go into your 'comfort zone' this maybe done through either quick movement, fast strike & move or push(unless your are trained in pressure point striking which takes a lot of practice, knowledge and ACTUALLY DOING IT). This is all good, as it prevents you from being hurt but you are not going to cause enough damage because you havent engaged the opponent(exception of pressure point striking)

Sambo would be a full leverage headbutt to the bridge of the nose/jab to the eyes followed by then biting the opponents face in a sensitive area. You could then proceed to either (whilst still attaining the 'lockjaw') gouge their eyes or i believe the most direct route would be breaking the neck or strangling. Point being; applying this you more than likely will be hit but you will go all out to destroy the enemy.

Hence good for the battle field and war, hard to kill some t*** on the street and then continue having a brew and a biscuit. Shame really.

Jasper: Cheers for the heads up. I trained some good sessions of boxing in manchester, also trained a few years ago at the gym where Ricky Hatton trained & still does i believe.

[Fargo]

so what makes UFC and Cage Rage (not be confused with any other cage fighting you may see on TV) different,, both are in a cage, both have the same rules, therefore its the fighters that are different and yes the UFC has the better fighters but because MMA in the US has a MUCH MUCH bigger coverage and following, The Cage Rage series has UFC fighters competing also, the like of Ian 'the machine' freeman who absolutly batter the legandary Frank Mir when UFC were in the UK..

you also have Andrei Semenov a UFC and Pride vet, Curtis Stout and Vitor Belfort all UFC vets.. so you see Cage Rage and in fact MMA is coming on leaps and bounds in the UK..

I attended a couple of Wing Chun sessions. Wing Chun was the base of Bruce Lee's early training, no? Founded by a chinese(no s***) woman, intended for the smaller and less physically sized.

yep founded by a bird who was tired of being picked on by the bigger males, but to say the art is intended for the smaller sizes person is crap..

Dont know if you looked at the WC school i got to (Kamon) you will see that the boss man has just got his brown in BJJ for Mauricao Gomes..

at our school nto only are there the traditional sylabus but also cause of the boss's other arts he trains in he introduces us to all sorts...

Every art has its good and bad and its fine commenting about theory etc, etc but the essence is in actual practice/application and the ONLY way is through fighting. Not sparring or regulation but a proper fight in todays scenarios.

end of the day a punch is a punch and a kick a kick whatever art you do.

I have had a LOT of experience: one on one, multiple t****, all sorts of weapon attacks ie.cut throats, CS, koshes, been bottled etc. It aint good, hence why i got out of security but still have my ties :)

It shapes you as a fighter and unless you have been there its hard to comment, essentially.

If you can prempt something before it occurs then you are one step ahead that only comes with experience, not gonna carry on.........

ahhh your an ex doorman,,,,, now THAT explains a lot....

NOW BACK TO MY QUESTION..anyone versed in ground arts/grappling?? Especially interested in BJJ, Greco Roman, vale tudo & sambo.

NO is the answer your get,,,,,, and what a short thread that would be.....

[Pip]

so what makes UFC and Cage Rage (not be confused with any other cage fighting you may see on TV) different,, both are in a cage, both have the same rules, therefore its the fighters that are different and yes the UFC has the better fighters but because MMA in the US has a MUCH MUCH bigger coverage and following, The Cage Rage series has UFC fighters competing also, the like of Ian 'the machine' freeman who absolutly batter the legandary Frank Mir when UFC were in the UK..

you also have Andrei Semenov a UFC and Pride vet, Curtis Stout and Vitor Belfort all UFC vets.. so you see Cage Rage and in fact MMA is coming on leaps and bounds in the UK..

I attended a couple of Wing Chun sessions. Wing Chun was the base of Bruce Lee's early training, no? Founded by a chinese(no s***) woman, intended for the smaller and less physically sized.

yep founded by a bird who was tired of being picked on by the bigger males, but to say the art is intended for the smaller sizes person is crap..

Dont know if you looked at the WC school i got to (Kamon) you will see that the boss man has just got his brown in BJJ for Mauricao Gomes..

at our school nto only are there the traditional sylabus but also cause of the boss's other arts he trains in he introduces us to all sorts...

Every art has its good and bad and its fine commenting about theory etc, etc but the essence is in actual practice/application and the ONLY way is through fighting. Not sparring or regulation but a proper fight in todays scenarios.

end of the day a punch is a punch and a kick a kick whatever art you do.

I have had a LOT of experience: one on one, multiple t****, all sorts of weapon attacks ie.cut throats, CS, koshes, been bottled etc. It aint good, hence why i got out of security but still have my ties :)

It shapes you as a fighter and unless you have been there its hard to comment, essentially.

If you can prempt something before it occurs then you are one step ahead that only comes with experience, not gonna carry on.........

ahhh your an ex doorman,,,,, now THAT explains a lot....

NOW BACK TO MY QUESTION..anyone versed in ground arts/grappling?? Especially interested in BJJ, Greco Roman, vale tudo & sambo.

NO is the answer your get,,,,,, and what a short thread that would be.....

If you read carefully you will understand that i am not just an 'ex doorman'.

If you noticed i appreciate every input into this subject. Diversity is what it is all about.

No what i actually stated was that asian males tend to be but not all cases smaller than their western counterparts. It was formed to help even the odds even with those whose physical presence is dominating.

Do not judge a book by its cover.

Have something to contribute to this thread instead of picking behind the safety of your keyboard.

[Noel]

I practiced Tae Kwon Do for about a year, makes you very fit but in the club i joined there was a lack of similer sized opponents so spent nearly all the time pulling punches and in the end i got bored and quit.....sorry i didn't keep it up purely for the fitness side.

Reason i took it up in the first place was for self defence and you do gain alot of confidence, I also liked the competition side of it....

Some of the "arts" you mention on this thread sound terrible and i have to question why would anyone want to learn these in the first place?

I can understand learning an art for self defense but the likes of "sambo" are you not talking total overkill altogether.....

Could you not use your hard earned experience to avoid dangerous situations of "real life" combat?

But if you really enjoy this one on one why not do in competitions where you will be matched up with a similar opponent and then it will be down to real skill...... and not end up in jail or dead.......

just my 2 cents

[Fargo]

If you read carefully you will understand that i am not just an 'ex doorman'.

If you noticed i appreciate every input into this subject. Diversity is what it is all about.

No what i actually stated was that asian males tend to be but not all cases smaller than their western counterparts. It was formed to help even the odds even with those whose physical presence is dominating.

Do not judge a book by its cover.

Have something to contribute to this thread instead of picking behind the safety of your keyboard.

the ex doorman comment was a jibe (perhaps i should have used a smilie) as to me it certainly explains your aggressive attitude from 'behind the keyboard' in all your posts..

Of course asian males are smaller than westerners, therefore to say an eastern art was 'invented' simply because they are smaller that westerners is crap, its like saying a car was invented with 4 wheels,, . and as nearly all arts originated via eastern culture (probally without eastern influence) then its a non argument IMO anyways. if an eastern art was 'invented' when east meets west then yeh the small Vs large argument is a valid one....you see what im saying..

I Have contributed to this thread,, have i called you a nasty name or said your gay.....no.....therefore i deem my contributions a valid one..... stop being so aggresive pip or ill have to use my secret art that reached out from your monitor that grabs you by the neck and says..."your names not down, your thread aint coming in" :D

[Pip]

Fargo: Maybe i need to clarify, it was ONE of the reasons invented to help them gain advantage. There were many, many others. In japan the shogun pre fuedal, didnt allow the people to carry arms or weapons so they had to create methods of self defence and implement primitive everyday items. I think we have just misunderstood each other.

Now go practice your 'WHOFLUNGDUNG' LMFAO :winky:

Noel: I dont really have interest in competition mate. Leave that to other people. I am not into one on one fights. When it has occured i hadnt much choice about it.

I may have come across as aggressive which is not what i wished to show.

I actually ran a security firm which is a lot different from being a 'doorman'. Not only do you have to have the respect of your men (testostrone filled and other things) but also control over them and then you have the complications/headache over other firms and the whole 'dark side' shall i put it of protection. Its something that is hard to switch off as i am always on guard.

The way i see it i dont look for trouble(I have had a stomach full at the age of 26 for everyone on here and more!) however when it does come (and it sometimes still does because of my size and there are just some nobs out there) i oblige them and i will do everything to make sure the person wont come back again.

Read my signature. I am a firm believer. ;)

[crazylex]

Any chance of a bit of fukushiki-kokyu now.

And to any non BMAA folk ignore the spelling :D

Editted - although I think its BNMAA these

[Lexmas]

Any chance of a bit of fukushiki-kokyu now.

And to any non BMA folk ignore the spelling :D

BMA - as in the British Medical Association. I fail to see the relevance! :winky:

Pip - sorry to confuse the issue, what I meant by my earlier comment was that I wonde whether they teach both TKD as the punching kicking art and the more advanced one gets in the armed forces, the more one learns different styles of fighting/ more effective techniques.

Noel - I don't suppose you ever entered the National Irish Championships down in Cork? They were always quite good fun.

[Noel]

Any chance of a bit of fukushiki-kokyu now.

And to any non BMA folk ignore the spelling :D

BMA - as in the British Medical Association. I fail to see the relevance! :winky:

Pip - sorry to confuse the issue, what I meant by my earlier comment was that I wonde whether they teach both TKD as the punching kicking art and the more advanced one gets in the armed forces, the more one learns different styles of fighting/ more effective techniques.

Noel - I don't suppose you ever entered the National Irish Championships down in Cork? They were always quite good fun.

Nope never made that far........

The one issue i had with TKD training was...... It was always one or two strikes...back off.... fine when both people are doing the same, you prepare a block and a counterstrike(s)... but in REAL life people rarely take turns and this i thought was bad practice....... I understand you can't very well have students beating the crap out of each other but it does lead to Complacency........

[Anees]

<Me> Makes note of who not to upset/fight with! </Me>

[tdiplc]

3rd Dan Ju Jitsu, 2nd Dan Karate, 1st Dan Judo, 1st Dan Weapons (katana, knife, tonfa, bo, jo, escrima, kubata, rope etc), 1st Dan Grappling (won Gold in international competition in Barcelona a few years ago), still training 4 days a week under 10th Dan, just about to start Brazilian Ju Jitsu at the Budokwai in Fulham (top stuff!!).

Got the trip of a lifetime in Novemebr (if I can escape work) - going to Japan to train with a 10th Dan Japanese Ju Jtsu Master who was the Emporors bodyguard. Should be interesting :)

[crazylex]

3rd Dan Ju Jitsu, 2nd Dan Karate, 1st Dan Judo, 1st Dan Weapons (katana, knife, tonfa, bo, jo, escrima, kubata, rope etc), 1st Dan Grappling (won Gold in international competition in Barcelona a few years ago), still training 4 days a week under 10th Dan, just about to start Brazilian Ju Jitsu at the Budokwai in Fulham (top stuff!!).

Got the trip of a lifetime in Novemebr (if I can escape work) - going to Japan to train with a 10th Dan Japanese Ju Jtsu Master who was the Emporors bodyguard. Should be interesting :)

Holy cow.

My sensei was 3rd dan and he was incredible.

I'll hold your coat any time

Any chance of a bit of fukushiki-kokyu now.

And to any non BMA folk ignore the spelling :D

BMA - as in the British Medical Association. I fail to see the relevance! :winky:

Edited

Although I think most of PIP's opponents would be neeeding the advise of the BMA :)

[Fargo]

Fargo: Maybe i need to clarify, it was ONE of the reasons invented to help them gain advantage. There were many, many others. In japan the shogun pre fuedal, didnt allow the people to carry arms or weapons so they had to create methods of self defence and implement primitive everyday items. I think we have just misunderstood each other.

Now go practice your 'WHOFLUNGDUNG' LMFAO :winky:

Noel: I dont really have interest in competition mate. Leave that to other people. I am not into one on one fights. When it has occured i hadnt much choice about it.

I may have come across as aggressive which is not what i wished to show.

I actually ran a security firm which is a lot different from being a 'doorman'. Not only do you have to have the respect of your men (testostrone filled and other things) but also control over them and then you have the complications/headache over other firms and the whole 'dark side' shall i put it of protection. Its something that is hard to switch off as i am always on guard.

The way i see it i dont look for trouble(I have had a stomach full at the age of 26 for everyone on here and more!) however when it does come (and it sometimes still does because of my size and there are just some nobs out there) i oblige them and i will do everything to make sure the person wont come back again.

Read my signature. I am a firm believer. ;)

sweet,, :) luv you pip lol

3rd Dan Ju Jitsu, 2nd Dan Karate, 1st Dan Judo, 1st Dan Weapons (katana, knife, tonfa, bo, jo, escrima, kubata, rope etc), 1st Dan Grappling (won Gold in international competition in Barcelona a few years ago), still training 4 days a week under 10th Dan, just about to start Brazilian Ju Jitsu at the Budokwai in Fulham (top stuff!!).

Got the trip of a lifetime in Novemebr (if I can escape work) - going to Japan to train with a 10th Dan Japanese Ju Jtsu Master who was the Emporors bodyguard. Should be interesting :)

mark, can you tell me what 1st dan weapons is all about especially pertaining to the escrima as i thought escrima was an art in own right (had a brief go myself for chidren in need appeal) rather than a reference to a stick..

[Pip]

TDI fella, dont just list your accomplishments please tell me your findings on each, good, bad and the terrible and perhaps in reference to the thread some suggestions on the ground/grappling issue?? :)

Fargo i am also aware that escrima is close quarter knife fighting art from the philippines and i also thought it was an art in its own right.

I too am planning soon to go to Japan for a short stay to learn the 'Ten chi jen' from sensei, which is the 'cirriculum' per se loosely set by Hatsumi to guide his students. Sensei Hatsumi is the last in the bloodline of real Ninja which is traceable. He has the 9 soke (9 styles of ninjitsu/ taijutsu) descended upon him from the last sensei.

[marx]

Russian Sambo is/was the soviet form of military martial arts. It is the only martial art that has been deliberately sought out and sanctioned by the soviet government. I believe it was an attempt to unify the states of russia in one form. It is not a pretty art at all with everything being of purpose, military style. Chokes, suffication, gouging, strangles (which is employed in ninjitsu as well). The russian special forces(spetsnaz; very tough b******. One was a heavyweight UFC champion) use this in its unadulterated form. It is generally watered down for outsiders, not the version I wish to learn. A lot is close quarter combat. Right up my street with its viciousness and lack of remorse but finding an ex-spetsnaz is gonna be tough. It purpose is total devestation of the enemy.

Brazilian Jujitsu BJJ, is pretty self explanatory. Again a lot of locks, submissions and grappling. Came to the forefront with Royce Gracie (UFC) dominating the league with this, later changed the system to his own form of 'Gracie jujitsu'.

Leyland, Jasper.

Interesting conversation guys, I practise Wu Shu Kwan (chinese boxing), we have all sorts of guys come for a session, one of the most intresting being a greek guy who practised grappling? Basically if you ever go to the ground your in trouble, he demonstrated some holds and throws on me and apart from know how to fall I would have been in serious trouble he was also much bigger than myself, but the amount of kicks, punches, knees and elbows was enough to keep him at bay, his kicking and punching lacked power for someone stronger than me, (his technique was poor at these type of disciplines)

We also Learn how to fight two on one and when you go for second dan you learn three on one, I think is very useful

BJJ is great so is Wing and boxing , but boxers tend to have too much weight on their front leg which is ripe for sweeps if their footwork is poor.

I have a lot of respect for all styles of fighting, and I'm very intrested in Escrima.

.

Never had a street fight since training, But it's about your mental strength and technique, which can make a huge difference.

I think your experience would making you a good student to work with and this would compliment any BJJ type style you focused on, good luck with your research.

[Pip]

Any chance of a bit of fukushiki-kokyu now.

And to any non BMA folk ignore the spelling :D

BMA - as in the British Medical Association. I fail to see the relevance! :winky:

Pip - sorry to confuse the issue, what I meant by my earlier comment was that I wonde whether they teach both TKD as the punching kicking art and the more advanced one gets in the armed forces, the more one learns different styles of fighting/ more effective techniques.

Noel - I don't suppose you ever entered the National Irish Championships down in Cork? They were always quite good fun.

Nope never made that far........

The one issue i had with TKD training was...... It was always one or two strikes...back off.... fine when both people are doing the same, you prepare a block and a counterstrike(s)... but in REAL life people rarely take turns and this i thought was bad practice....... I understand you can't very well have students beating the crap out of each other but it does lead to Complacency........

Hence Noel TKD is Koreas national SPORT. If it doesnt work in the dojo for real it will not magically work in the real world.

In my opinion an art has to be pressure tested or its no use.

A chap i remember had a very big attitude and reputation. I was very young at the time and had only began weights and training. Been training donkeys of years, big reputation in the dojo. Very cocky and threw his weight about (empty vessels make the loudest noise) hit someone inside a bar.

The person had a friend, from what i recall they were guys who could brawl. Anyway his friend went straight for the attack which was halted by the door staff.

Door staff were wary of the 'karate kid' (door staff not worth p****** on) 'Karate kid' began shouting the odds to everyone and told the guy's friend to get outside which they both did. Outside 'karate kid' hit a short stance and went for a thrust punch which landed, the other guy threw a hook which missed. Leading leg forward 'karate kid' initiated with an opening reverse punch to the solar plex then a flurry of strikes, majority of which connected. This had brought them in close together and i couldnt understand how the other guy was still stood up. When in close the guy threw a short hook which hit 'karate kid' right on the button.

Put 'Daniel san' on his arse. He look bewildered and confused. The other guy had a bloody lip.

What happened to all his hard work in the dojo for years and perfecting his kata's to an inch??

He pulled his punches.

[Fargo]

reminds me of another example..

few years back martial arts illustrated put together a top 100 of people that have given various things to the arts, my sifu was something like number 12 and was nominated for 'setting the standard'.

now there was this 6th dan karate guy who made the top 10, anyways sifu was reconouting the story to the two of us (whilst we were learning the wooden dummy form) that for ages and ages this guy kept wanting to fight him and that he had always told him to go away, so this one time (at bandcamp lol) he said ok lets go into the car park and sort this out.

karate guy for ALLLL is learn-ed experience runs at sifu and graps him aroudn the waist in some sort of rugby tackle thing.. so sifu simpe based off stuck an elbow in between his shoulders and as karate man let go, sifu clocked him on the button,,,,, good night mr 6th dan..... he never mouthed off again...

[tdiplc]

Fargo: Maybe i need to clarify, it was ONE of the reasons invented to help them gain advantage. There were many, many others. In japan the shogun pre fuedal, didnt allow the people to carry arms or weapons so they had to create methods of self defence and implement primitive everyday items. I think we have just misunderstood each other.

Now go practice your 'WHOFLUNGDUNG' LMFAO :winky:

Noel: I dont really have interest in competition mate. Leave that to other people. I am not into one on one fights. When it has occured i hadnt much choice about it.

I may have come across as aggressive which is not what i wished to show.

I actually ran a security firm which is a lot different from being a 'doorman'. Not only do you have to have the respect of your men (testostrone filled and other things) but also control over them and then you have the complications/headache over other firms and the whole 'dark side' shall i put it of protection. Its something that is hard to switch off as i am always on guard.

The way i see it i dont look for trouble(I have had a stomach full at the age of 26 for everyone on here and more!) however when it does come (and it sometimes still does because of my size and there are just some nobs out there) i oblige them and i will do everything to make sure the person wont come back again.

Read my signature. I am a firm believer. ;)

sweet,, :) luv you pip lol

3rd Dan Ju Jitsu, 2nd Dan Karate, 1st Dan Judo, 1st Dan Weapons (katana, knife, tonfa, bo, jo, escrima, kubata, rope etc), 1st Dan Grappling (won Gold in international competition in Barcelona a few years ago), still training 4 days a week under 10th Dan, just about to start Brazilian Ju Jitsu at the Budokwai in Fulham (top stuff!!).

Got the trip of a lifetime in Novemebr (if I can escape work) - going to Japan to train with a 10th Dan Japanese Ju Jtsu Master who was the Emporors bodyguard. Should be interesting :)

mark, can you tell me what 1st dan weapons is all about especially pertaining to the escrima as i thought escrima was an art in own right (had a brief go myself for chidren in need appeal) rather than a reference to a stick..

Was refereing the baton itself Paul. Sorry for the confusion

[tdiplc]

TDI fella, dont just list your accomplishments please tell me your findings on each, good, bad and the terrible and perhaps in reference to the thread some suggestions on the ground/grappling issue?? :)

Fargo i am also aware that escrima is close quarter knife fighting art from the philippines and i also thought it was an art in its own right.

I too am planning soon to go to Japan for a short stay to learn the 'Ten chi jen' from sensei, which is the 'cirriculum' per se loosely set by Hatsumi to guide his students. Sensei Hatsumi is the last in the bloodline of real Ninja which is traceable. He has the 9 soke (9 styles of ninjitsu/ taijutsu) descended upon him from the last sensei.

Sorry Pip . Personally speaking, I found anything that was too focused on any of the three elements of a fight (distance, clinch and grapplig) was inherently flawed as soon as the conflict went beyond the comfort zone, so I chose to become comfortable in all three environments.

I have tried lots of different things including some of the Chinese stuff, but for me I found Ju Jitsu to be the best "all rounder" because it was the original art that Judo, Karate, Kendo, Ninjitsu and everything else came from, so you can learn all of that in one place if you can find a good school (easier said than done).

At this stage in my life I find that Judo and ground grapping is the most interesting and challenging stuff because of the constantly changing dynamics and where strength is easily defeated by skill.

I'm not too shabby on the ground (won a Gold in an international competition a few years ago) but found myself tied up like a b*itch recently by a good mate that has been soaking up Brazilian Ju Jutsu stuff at the Budokwai - so guess what - I'm gonna learn me some of that :). If you've never tried ground work before - have a go it's fantasic but very tiring ;)

[tdiplc]

Here's a thought (or a question) for you guys;

How many times have you seen experienced and technically proficient "martial artists" fill their pants in a real life conflict?

I've seen it a few times.

It seems to me that it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what you can do in a "safe environment", if you haven't got the fire in your belly when you need it - it's all over :)

[Lexmas]

Any chance of a bit of fukushiki-kokyu now.

And to any non BMA folk ignore the spelling :D

BMA - as in the British Medical Association. I fail to see the relevance! :winky:

Pip - sorry to confuse the issue, what I meant by my earlier comment was that I wonde whether they teach both TKD as the punching kicking art and the more advanced one gets in the armed forces, the more one learns different styles of fighting/ more effective techniques.

Noel - I don't suppose you ever entered the National Irish Championships down in Cork? They were always quite good fun.

Nope never made that far........

The one issue i had with TKD training was...... It was always one or two strikes...back off.... fine when both people are doing the same, you prepare a block and a counterstrike(s)... but in REAL life people rarely take turns and this i thought was bad practice....... I understand you can't very well have students beating the crap out of each other but it does lead to Complacency........

Hence Noel TKD is Koreas national SPORT. If it doesnt work in the dojo for real it will not magically work in the real world.

In my opinion an art has to be pressure tested or its no use.

A chap i remember had a very big attitude and reputation. I was very young at the time and had only began weights and training. Been training donkeys of years, big reputation in the dojo. Very cocky and threw his weight about (empty vessels make the loudest noise) hit someone inside a bar.

The person had a friend, from what i recall they were guys who could brawl. Anyway his friend went straight for the attack which was halted by the door staff.

Door staff were wary of the 'karate kid' (door staff not worth p****** on) 'Karate kid' began shouting the odds to everyone and told the guy's friend to get outside which they both did. Outside 'karate kid' hit a short stance and went for a thrust punch which landed, the other guy threw a hook which missed. Leading leg forward 'karate kid' initiated with an opening reverse punch to the solar plex then a flurry of strikes, majority of which connected. This had brought them in close together and i couldnt understand how the other guy was still stood up. When in close the guy threw a short hook which hit 'karate kid' right on the button.

Put 'Daniel san' on his arse. He look bewildered and confused. The other guy had a bloody lip.

What happened to all his hard work in the dojo for years and perfecting his kata's to an inch??

He pulled his punches.

With regard to TKD being the national sport of Korea, this is more a testament to its origins and popularity than effectivenes. TKD and Judo are the only two martial arts (excluding wrestling) to be included as sports in the Olymipc Games and I certainly wouldn't say that Judo was ineffective.

The effectivess of techniques depends on training and application. I think it also depends what style within your martial art you practice, e.g. there are large differences between ITF and WTF within TKD. I think my training was pretty good under Mr. Iqbal in Manchester, we always practised 'real life' scenarios as far as possible, I know from experience that techniques do translate into good street self-defence.

With most punching and kicking martial arts, sparring only goes as far as heavy contact at most (apart maybe from the Irish who always hit a bit harder!). This teaches the muscles etc a range of movement that does not go far enough to cause damage in real life situations. Remembering to follow through on the target, combined with speed of technique and surprise are key (in my opinion). E.g. There is no good adopting a fighting stance in the middle of the street as it puts the other person on guard etc...

Not to disrespect any Karate practitioners out there, but I have had some sparring sessions with equivalently trained Karate guys and it seems that Karate has now developed into more of a demonstrational martial art than a pragmatic one.

Here's a thought (or a question) for you guys;

How many times have you seen experienced and technically proficient "martial artists" fill their pants in a real life conflict?

I've seen it a few times.

It seems to me that it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what you can do in a "safe environment", if you haven't got the fire in your belly when you need it - it's all over :)

I completely agree. Gotta have the cajones.

There are some viscious ba****ds out there who have no training, but through sheer depravity are ones to stay clear of at all costs.

[adz]

How many times have you seen experienced and technically proficient "martial artists" fill their pants in a real life conflict? I've seen it a few times.

Too many times :duh:

I'm an ex head doorman/ boxer but have never done much martial arts, although I appreciate their value in certain situations.

I've worked with men with credentials as long as your arm and arms as big as tree trunks who shrank/ disappeared when you needed them most.

Some of the most fearsome men i've fought with /seen fight have had no training but natural grace/ timing power which cannot be learnt. Many martial arts will not work in a club/pub without as i'm sure pip and others can back me up on this. I've seen too many people do the "karate kid" stance to take it too seriously, and I know when it's for real.

Pip, judo on its own isn't great but with the background you've already got it would definitely be a good route to go down. Personally for me the floor is a horrible place to fight but i've ended up there a few times when it "goes off".

Personally even talking about fighting nowadays gives me a sick feeling, so i'm off for a lie down.

Respect to all ;)

Adz

[Pip]

I think having balls is one thing tdi & lexmas but its heart that makes a fighter. The best way for me to 'neutralise' an opponent is for me to take the fight right out of him(spirit, heart, whatever). It usually only takes one blow to certain vulnerable area. Hence my like for pressure point fighting.

Lexmas: I think you are emphasising my point and i do agree with you about a lot of arts being aesthetically pleasing/exhibition value rather than having true use when it counts/pragmatic.

The vicious ones are not only stupid half the time but there some who do truly have the heart and you would have to be extremely wary of them. There are rajpots in every walk of life.

TDI: Seen the arses of practioners of various disciplines go many a time. Effective people have been ringers and people who are, shall i say 'seasoned', people who have been exposed to the feelings of fear and adrenaline before. Others are just frozen in their paths with the viciousness that an assault brings.

I will state again and reaffirm: Whatever it is you practice, are a student of, unless you pressure test it or it has been pressure tested, IT IS USELESS.

Adz: I agree with the natural aspect of timing, balance and distance that just cannot be taught. Some people have it without training, what some people for years try to achieve but never will.

What you learn in the ring/dojo has to be adapted to apply to the 'real world'. No sensei/sifu/shidoshi/master instructor can teach you that.

Thank you all for your input and everything has been noted to look into.

There is an account(asked of him in his words) of applying an art to pragmatic use when it mattered wrote by a friend of mine who has read this thread when forwarded to him. Thought i would share it:

"Well a friday night off from the door, hell I earned it. Dealing with dealers, hoodlums, townies and social pond life can sometimes get you down, anyhow me and the lads from training decided to have a night on the beer, out of town somewhere miles away, no one would know us or me or so we thought, I'm going back a few years now I was a sixth kyu in ninpo, never the less still sixteen stone of rugby and one ugly face lol!

Bolton was the town we picked for a beer. All went well, other doormen can sense when you can do a bit or if you do the door, through the way you talk to people, nice, courteous and polite. Pub after pub, beer chasing beer, till we went to the local night club. Appropriate as it is now deep down under bankcrupt, it closed about 4 years back.

The place was huge, I had only been in twice, the eye candy was good to look at, too good at times, you often found yourself being stared down by some meathead as you was eyeing up his girlfriend never the less.

Maybe it's me, maybe because of my size, confidence or aura, hell take your pick, some people become babe magnets me I was a 'sh!t-magnet'. Yes, I can be in a buliding and within 10 minutes I'd have trouble, all I wanted was a beer.

Anyhow we was rambling through the crowd, the others upfront when I got spun round. I dropped left leg back into a subtle hira ichimonji, only to have some village idiot who was mad as a wasp cursing and swearing.

This is where your training now comes in, and it's amazing even more how it works when your plied up on beer.

Village Idiot swings at me( *** knows why I didn't even know him). He threw the predictable right hook, I shuffled back as he came, the punch sailed past my right hand, as I was still in hira no kamae, I shifted into right leg forward midji ihon no kamae, followed through with a front kick to uke's(Village Idiot) exposed knee. As he crumbled I dug a deep shako into ukes neck and politely told him to f**k off. And I let uke go. Nearby there was two bouncers not worth their salt, watched (amzaed I think) how I handled the situation and started to laugh. Now if the village idiot wasn't mad enough to begin with, he was now a whole angry swarm off mad wasps. His pride and esteem had been destroyed in front of his mates, he needed that back. He picked himself up from the floor and grabbed the nearest thing he could get, a bottle of blue WKD. GAME ON. This was no Playstaion, no X-Box now, this was combat.

The Bouncers who were laughing before and only 10 foot away ran off. It was me and him with a bottle.

There I was stood in shinzen, for what seemed like an eternity, I was waiting for the storm to break, to hear the thunder, I found that when in fighting you hear nothing, all the shouting, screaming, music, everything goes away all you can hear is your heart pounding away in your chest as your adrenalin goes through the roof.

Uke lunged at me, swinging the bottle in an arc for my head, to those watching it was a blur, to me it was precision, I moved outside of the attack, I mirrored my attacker, ending up behind him, a quick happa to his ears, rocked him, and if that didn't hurt the koppokens to the neck sure did, he was in pain and he was frightened, he jumped forward trying to get some distance but leaving an arm outstretched for to long only invited a right handed ura gyaku, into a take ori, while firing boshikens with the free hand into uke's ribs. Ever see a rabbit caught in the headlight of a car, this was it. But the coupe de grace was changing the right handed take ori into my left hand omote gyaku pinning uke to the wall and struck the veins on his neck with ura shuto.

Uke was gone out cold, and the bouncers that had ran off were now running back with another two. Reinforcements. how long had this assualt taken from start to finish. 10 seconds tops, 10 seconds is a long time in a fight, but not a long as the one coming up.

The Village Idiot was shell shocked, hell I did'nt care, one of the doormen grabbed me I shifted into a left leg ichimonji, folding his arms as I moved in ihen. The bouncer was perplexed, he didn't know what to do as I had pinned his foot. One of the original bouncers was shouting saying 'I was cool' it was the other guy who started it. I held onto the bouncer for a few seconds more nodded at him and let go. I said to the lads I was with and to the bouncers I'm going home and preceeded to walk off.

I was angry. Hell I was livid a perfect night out was ruined, we walked to the exit, we must have been 12 meters from the door when I got shouted at by a bouncer who was running towards me. I stopped, he stepped up "Can I have a word mate" ***** I knew what was coming I do the job.

" I can't hear you" I said, the nugget was stood infront off a speaker, I pointed at him to stand to the side so I could listen to him.

"You've been fighting, you've got to go"

"Look I didn't start it, but I'm going home, sorry about it, i understand I do the doors myself.OK I'll see you later, Follow me to the door if you wish, I'm going"

And I turned my back on him to walk off in the direction of the door.

"Your going now!!"

Then the punch came from behind. It was probably the worst mistake anyone could have made. I went with the blow, I staggered forward and felt him grab my left shoulder with his right hand, I immediately backstepped throwing my left arm over his right, stepping forward threw number 1 into ganseki nage, number 2 grabbed from behind a naked choke hold, I hooked into the crevice of his elbow with my index finger, turned into the choke(musodori) throwing number 2 to the floor. Number 3 came with a lunging grab, I took the gift of the hands coming at me, stepped to the side, throwing his arms into a circular motion, throwing 3 into 1. number 4 was crafty, he came at me with a coma geri for my right leg, I never thought it would ever work in training, but I delivered a Hicho from kihon happo, sending 4 off balance taking his leg from him. It was at this point I was overmanned 5,6,7,8 came from out of nowhere, grabbing hold of my arms and shoulders, now a trick from karate if you did not want to move was to dig your legs into the floor, forcing your weight down and into the ground while tensing your entire body. I became immovable, They was screaming at each other to move me, other were sreaming back that they could'nt, I then relaxed and dropped to the floor. Collateral damage as bouncers piled into each other, I came out applying hon gyaku's, take ori's, standing on ankles and knees. I got kicked through an exit door by number 9. It hurt, I agree.

one rule by british law is that a bouncer cannot hit a reveller, they have to be ejected off the premises by minimal force, the days of thuggery gone in big clubs, or should be.

A Bouncer striking a Doorman is war.

I held no guard, no kamae until he came, the left leg dropped back into ichimonji as my hands came up as he grabbed my shirt a right boshiken slammed into his throat, this kitten wanted to play, only he was playing with a lion. 9 was gone, on the floor spluttering. 10 was fat, overwieght, he grabbed my right arm and tried to arm bar it into an ura gyaku, I turned into the lock folding his arms up with my elbows, pinned his feet and sent him to the floor.11 was in front of 2,5,7, the exit corridor we was going down was only 2meters wide, so 12 blokes brawling, you only have three attackers at any one time. I was almost at the door, when 11 threw the last punch, welcome to the world of properly applying a mushodori, I will always remember that scream of pain as I left the building with the bouncer tied up. I threw 11 back into the crowd of p*ssed of bouncers.

Funny how you react in a post conflict as well, the lads who was with me that night, where was they you ask when I was battling with the staff. Watching and laughing. Typical.

I ended up walking to the front of the building asking the main bouncer for the manager, wanting to know why Bouncer 1 had punched me in the back of the head when I said I was leaving on my own accord. While talking I was also talking with my hands, palms open, making me look passive, yet still having a guard, out of the blue the main bouncer hit my right arm, why I haven't a clue but the last thing he saw was a shikaken entering his left and right eyes.

Another good tip for all you people, if you get the chance is to train the Police it comes in handy. As does CCTV. The main bouncer got a warning, bouncers 1,9,11 lost their badge.

I didn't go back for a year, but when I did the remaining doorstaff could not look me in the eye and all the barstaff knew me by doorname back home."

I can verify this, ninjitsu 101 to the unfortunate team of d**** :winky: