Help Coolant Leak!

[LawrenceR]

Hi people I'm kind of lost and need some advice. I bought a 220d 58 50k last month and I have experienced coolant discharge from the header tank overflow pipe. I had a local garage test for head gasket and it was ok they suggested it could be the water pump. So I took it to another garage and they suggested I replaced the rad cap and that what I done, a week later and there is still signs of leakage not a massive amount and not every time I drive. The car runs fine and temp gauge is bang in the middle when warmed up. I checked the service history and the problem was noted in a service 2 years ago as well. I will continue to monitor the problem and seek advise from garages but I wondered if anyone here has any advise? Thanks for reading I look forward to your comments.

[LawrenceR]

After speaking to a friend who is a technician at Toyota he said it probably is the head gasket needless to say I'm gutted. I have spoken with my local Lexus dealer about the extended warranty and they are going to let me know tomorrow so fingers crossed. Does anybody know if there is official info on this or is it at the dealers discretion whether they fix it or not?

[normski2]

Read all the posts relating to Head Gasket in this 220/250 forum.

Can't see how it can be discretionary..... duff design/manufacture... well known defect...Toyota should be obliged to sort. There are far too many of these out there for it to be anything but a manufacturing defect.

The phrase 'fitness for purpose' comes to mind.

Take a look here, specifically look for pics put up by Ormi

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=70826&st=0&p=743212&hl=+head%20+gasket&fromsearch=1entry743212

[LawrenceR]

Thanks I used info in that thread to fight my corner. Lexus have agreed to take it in for inspection and providing nothing is suspicious they will repair under warranty. Just got to wait 2 weeks until it goes in. Does anybody know the extent of the repairs eg just replace the HG?

[normski2]

I guess each repair is of a similar nature.

Mine needed a new head (to be expected as they will twist fairly readiy being alloy) and other smaller components. Pretty much what they refer to as a 'Short Engine rebuild'.

EGR and injectors will need checking too.

A wise man may say do a sound/video recording of your engine running before its touched. Better safe than sorry. Proof everything sounds OK and no screaming turbo ( they need careful reassembling to the engine replacement). Know of one that was screwed by the techs' doing the work!!

I know of Full engine replacements being made too. Think there was a guy called PAULS13 who had a full engine, a 2006 220d sport I believe.

[LawrenceR]

Thanks for the info I'm just praying that they'll cover all that work! They said they checked my service history and it was ok but my latest service was at a Toyota main dealer not Lexus they assured me that Lexus parts were used when I booked it in. I bet a lot of people have this problem not knowing about the warrant, so glad I found this forum!

[briatore]

Lawrence, it definitely is the head gasket. For all I could find out, there is a portion of it that somehow gets deformed or broken in a way that it lets the exhaust gasses go into the cooling system. Basically, you'll have exhaust gasses mixed with the coolant which means added volume and larger pressure. Luckily, there is the cap that opens the gate to the release pipe when the pressure goes over one bar. You can lose up to about two litres (out of nine) of the coolant and after that the gravity will do what it does and only the gas will go out the pipe. What remains is not enough to keep the engine cool enough, so be careful not to overheat it. If you have to drive the car, just make sure you add some coolant or water from time to time and you'll be fine.

If the car is under warranty, the solution is to take it to Lexus and let them deal with it. If the car is out of warranty. the solution is to replace the head gasket and that's it. Everything else on the car is fine, not broken. Now, people at Lexus and probably independent repair shops will tell you that a million things need to be replaced, but not really. The only parts you need is the head gasket (quite cheap even at Toyota/Lexus) and new oil and coolant, of course. Have a mechanic remove the head, put in a new gasket and assemble the engine back again. Even the timing chain setup is very straightforward. You don't need whatever else they say you do. For example, new bolts. There won't be anything wrong with the old ones. They are not made of dough to be damaged from removing them once. You don't even need to skim the head. As a matter of fact, it would probably do you harm. Obviously, the head is not warped or anything because if it were, you would have a myriad of other problems too and the car wouldn't run well at all.

It's a labour intensive repair and would probably take up to 5-6 hours. There are instructions on how to do any repair on an IS 220d here http://bahamutcars.free.fr/workshop/IS_05-12/rm0153e/index2.html You will find what you need under ENGINE/2AD-FHV ENGINE MECHANICAL. There is one thing to be careful about that is not so obvious. You won't be able to tell what type of head gasket you need before you take the old one out. There are, I think, five different versions of it. The part number is the same for all bar from the last letter (A, B, C, D or E). For all I could tell, the difference might be in thickness and nothing else (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please), but make sure to put the same one as the one you have now. That probably means you won't be able to order the part before you disassemble the engine and that the car will have to stay at the workshop for longer.

The cause of this happening in the first place could be restricted air flow and increased pressure due to clogged various parts of the engine which is basically a design fault, but it is what it is. It's not the first and not the last engine with a problem. I find this fairly benign compared to some other things on other engines I've heard or seen. What I wanted to say is that you might want to use the opportunity to clean whatever part of the engine you can and once you get your car in the great shape (whichever way you decide to go you'll get there in the end), make sure you use only the best fuel (with the least sulphur content) and the best oil (always 5w30 ACEA C1 or C2 or C3 or C4, not 0w20 or 5w40 and whatever else people use). And drive your car like it's supposed to be driven, vigorously. :) Honestly, I don't understand people who buy a car that will depreciate like crazy and then care about consumption.

Now, I'm standing ready to be called whatever, but this is what I know and I'm just trying to help and if you think about it carefully, it all makes sense.

Good luck

[LawrenceR]

That was a great reply thank you so much. I cannot speak from a mechanics point of view but logically it makes perfect sense. I can see how garages could use it as an excuse to empty your bank but if Lexus are paying then they can replace whatever they like, but on the other hand if I do end up going to an independent garage I will know that its just the gasket that needs to be replaced. I've had head gasket problems on bmws before but they went almost instantly and that was it you could not drive them. I only need to use it for a couple of miles a day will use the Mrs car until it goes in but I will defo keep the coolant topped up just in case. Once again thanks for all the info.

[briatore]

I'm glad if I could be of any help. As for the problem with the BMW, it all depends on what caused the failure and where it gets broken. If the head gets warped, pretty much everything goes wrong to some extent. The engine loses compression and it doesn't run well, or can't even start at all, oil gets mixed with coolant and stuff like that. In your case, there is a small, one-way gap that opens only when the pressure in the head goes up. I bet you could run your engine on idle for ages with no coolant loss. Just in case, please check that oil is fine (the level and colour/consistency is fine).

Please do let us know about the further developments.

Good luck

[noby76]

make sure you use only the best fuel (with the least sulphur content) and the best oil (always 5w30 ACEA C1 or C2 or C3 or C4, not 0w20 or 5w40 and whatever else people use). And drive your car like it's supposed to be driven, vigorously. :) Honestly, I don't understand people who buy a car that will depreciate like crazy and then care about consumption.

Flavio, I like you man!! we had a debated discussion about using good fuels in these engines and couple of guys were opposing my advice of running good fuel and good oil in them if you want to keep them clean and run for longer. and your comments have nailed it aswell. Lawrence I am not saying your problem was down to using cheap 'Supermarket' fuel but a mechanic who works for Denso carrying out research work showed me fuel from Tesco and Shell which has been left settled for about a month in a lab glass bottle and the fuel from Tesco had all sorts of gunk settled beneath the bottle and one from Shell was clear with no impurities. and I can bet thats part of what causes all these headgasket/Injector rough idling issue people face without knowing. Like you said cars will depreciate like crazy so why care about saving couple of pence by using cheap fuel, oil and worrying about consumption cus come a year or two one would have lost more in depreciation than the exrtra saved on cheap fuel and oil...

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=77777

[briatore]

Thanks, noby76. :) On my car there is a sticker on the tank lid (photo attached) saying "low sulphur diesel". It also says "see owners manual" which I would if I could understand German. :) So, I don't have a clue what the manual says, but the sticker is enough a warning for me.

This is what wikipedia article on low sulphur diesel says "The move to lower sulfur content is expected to allow the application of newer emissions control technologies that should substantially lower emissions of particulate matter from diesel engines." Now, having the engine that has gone the furthest with lowering the particulate matter in its emissions, it's quite obvious what we should do. So, top quality diesel is a must, at least for me. :) I know for fact that D-CAT engines were not offered on some markets until the regulations on the fuel quality were rigorous enough.

Same with the oil. ACEA C-class of oils are intended for exactly this kind of engine (descriptions attached).

Call me crazy, but I change all the filters every time I do service, and I do it every 10k kilometres, not miles, and I that's the price I pay for the top performance and reliability of the car. So be it. :D

Measuring and comparing the consumption figures has obviously become a global obsession, and I can understand it if you drive a VW or some other people's car, but not a Lexus. You don't buy that kind of car and then try to save money driving it. Please, forgive me, but it's vulgar.