PJ S

Looks like I'll be checking the claim on Carlack's site then. I don't know how you figure I know more about AB than BH themselves do - but if that's how you interpreted it, then what can I say? What's protecting bare metal through scrapes/stonechips got to do with not protecting against bird lime? I fail to spot the correlation between the two. In what respect am I taking things personally? You asked a question, got an answer, and I've queried the validity of the statement you made about Carlack protecting against bird bombs - where's personal angle in all that? And what's this about a personal attack? My comment about my other leg playing Jingle Bells? If so, then grow up and stop being so petty and sensitive. It looks to me that you've completely grabbed the wrong end of the stick and are getting into a tizzy over the grand total of FA squared - but that's your prerogative, I suppose. Maybe before I joined, you were/are seen as the detailing guru, but now that someone else is in the frame with opposing views - your nose is a little out of joint? Either way, I've no time for pettiness and virtual squabbles - life is stressful enough without having to add to it on a forum, where I come for relaxation and a bit of craic, not for oneupmanships.

Do Carlack actually claim that, or is this one of those word of mouth guarantees from someone you spoke with once? I'll happily put it to the test, with a full BH kit on offer if proved wrong. Stop and think about this for one minute - something which is not as hard as the clearcoat beneath it, somehow magically neutralises bird acid in a layer of 20 Angstroms thick? Yeah, pull the other one, it plays Jingle Bells! Sorry to be so dismissive and derisory, but I really don't have any time for marketing BS and hype - which this industry has by the spadeful. BH, like a couple of others, are the real deal, and will always be 100% honest in what their product can and can't do - hence the reply you got. Put it like this, the first company that does produce a bird acid neutraliser of a LSP, will write themselves a very large cheque with lots of zeros on the end, as every automotive paint manufacturer on the planet will offer stupid money for the exclusive rights to its formulation, with a view to incorporating it within the clearcoat, or marketing it themselves. Carlack is a good and well respected brand, with their Glass kit one that's championed very much - but they are not miracle workers. At least, not yet they aren't. Now, back on topic - those two motors look very well indeed. Just remember the AB doesn't bead water like carnauba does, but that's nothing more than aesthetics and a function of surface tension, and not an indication of there being any protection still on the paintwork.

Okay - as per page 1, where I set this out, here's the two scenarios. No swirl removal: Wash Clay (whilst still wet) 2nd Wash Dry Auto Balm Swirl Removal: Wash Clay (whilst still wet) Dry Polish (hand or machine) Auto Balm You'll notice there's no 2nd wash in the Swirl Removal scenario - there's no need to worry about doing one since you're stripping a bit of the clearcoat off anyway. Any clearer in your head now? As for hand polishing - I wouldn't as the various polishes typically used (AG SRP and Dodo Juice Lime Prime) are only really suitable for hand application on small areas here and there. If the paintwork is covered in light swirling, best get a Pro and watch them. If the paint is only lightly marked and as Lexus paint is softish, it really shouldn't take them that long to do, so it'll not be that much to employ them to do the task. Once you start feeling braver, you can then look at a machine, as inevitably the swirls will come back no matter how careful you are with the various stages - it's Jap paint, therefore a fact of life, unfortunately.

Tidy work there dgman - some nice shots. Carlack has done a good job by the looks of it.

it seems to me that you are a little overwhelmed by the amount of imformation posted on this thread.you need to visit sites such as autopia or polished bliss to get a basic grounding about detailing,you will save yourself a lot of money on buying products that you don't need.your initial post was about removing the swirl marks,now unless you polish the paint by machine this will be unachievable. Disagree - swirls can be removed or reduced depending on severity by hand, it's just that it'll take longer than by machine for obvious reasons. finest1 - I thought I'd answered your uncertainty, but no matter......AB is a LSP (last stage protection/product), so that means it's a sealant (waxes are more often than not, carnauba based along with silicone, beeswax, various oils, etc) which seals the paintwork Back to the skin analogy - think of LSP as a face mask, only one that's designed to stay on, rather than peel off removing dirt out of the pores. This is the barrier that protects the paint from the elements and crap and crud in the air/rain/etc. It has an element of chemical polish about it, so it falls over into a bit of an AIO (all in one), only you'll never appreciate that side of it unless your paint is not clearcoated/lacquered. Either way, it's the last product you apply on a dry car, but you may want to use an abrasive polishing compound to remove/reduce the swirls. If you don't, then you can rely upon AB to mask/hide them until you decide to get rid of them yourself or with the employ of a Pro. It might be worth your rereading this thread from the start again, and more than once if needs be, just so some of what we've discussed can sink in. I've tried to create a mental image in your head on page one, with the order of processes, to make it simpler for you to grasp the concept. As per above - wax/polish are not quite as interchangeable as they used to be, when the options were T-Cut and Mer! Polishing is what is done to create a lovely shiny mirror-like surface, waxes/sealants are the invisible "armour" that locks in all that hard work and effort. Of course, the armour needs topping-up to keep it working - so that's your fortnightly/monthly reapplication. Inbetween times, a simple wash/dry is all is required. Some use a quick detailer (QD) of one brand or another to keep the appearance nice and glossy, etc - with AB you may find there's no need.

Quick recap and point of clarity - claying does not remove/hide/add swirls to your paintwork, what it does is get rid of bonded contamination. Think of your paint as skin - then claying is an exfoliator, removing "dirt" from the pores (paint is actually porous when viewed under a microscope/magnifier). Polishing would be akin to dermabrasion - removing a sliver off the top to leave perfectly good skin. Wax/Sealant is the moisturiser, except paint doesn't actually absorb them - they merely fill the voids and pores, helping to keep the crap out, and add some more UV protection to the paint layer, to prevent it oxidising (red turning pink like you see on Golfs/Corsas/etc). AB has more filling capability than SRP - so whilst Halfords can be handy to just get some stuff as and when, it's still no substitute for something much better. Whilst you can use Menzerna/3M/Meguiar's polishes by hand with the likes of the German applicator, it'd be such an arduous task that you'll get fed up by the time you've corrected one or two panels. As for Pro prices - that'll depend on how many hours the Pro has to spend on the paint. As Lexus is fairly soft, and if the swirls are relatively light, then you could be looking at as little as £150. Most will use a rotary for quickness, switching to a RO/DA in tighter areas or areas where the paint measures less than ideal. Bottom line, you don't have to be "into" detailing to appreciate the extra effort and money spent on excellent products rather than making do with mediocre ones, even after driving/delivery has been factored in. Honestly, aside from a couple of products both AG and Meg's have in their consumer range, the rest are merely adequate - and that's something you'll never see from Bilt Hamber or a number of other brands. By not mass producing and dancing to the tune played by Halfords, you will pay a bit more and have to order online - but that's neither here nor there when all is said and done. If you trust me enough thus far - then go the whole hog and get the Auto Wash too. I'll practically guarantee you'll explode with excitement when you see how much suds and lubricity one (or two, if in hard water area) 5ml teaspoonful will generate with warm water in one of those 99p orange B&Q buckets 3/4 full. Gold Class isn't half bad in fairness, but if you make it a bit strong, you'll kiss goodbye to your LSP - that's a guarantee I can make. Right, a few pics from today's little clean, and machine polishing...... The 2nd before last image (wing bling) was quite heavily swirled - I'm very pleased with the outcome even though it's not 100% corrected, since I was testing a new polish I've had for a while, but not really been able to do much with for one reason or another. I was also supposed to test a couple of pre-production sample products, but alas time got away from me, so they'll have to wait until next week some time. As usual, clicky piccy for biggy.

Good point Frothey, but whilst the Auto Clay is aggressive, in the normally meant way when discussing clay bars, it's nothing like the other aggressive bars on the market, as far as marring is concerned. Here's an example of what claying alone can do for a car: Click on images for larger option.

My Lexus is the '03 Honda Accord 2.4 Executive version - a very rare strictly limited edition version, apparently! Balm is the LSP, so if you're doing swirl removal yourself, then you'll want to look at 3M ultrafina or Menzerna Intensive Polish, and Final Finish along with a suitable combo of pads and machine. Start off with the least aggressive combo, and see how that performs, before switching to the next firmer pad and/or polish. Work the polishes to the point of where they are bordering on dry doing 1-2' sq. sections. Basic motion (and you'll see this on YouTube videos) is overlapping left-right, then up-down at around 1-2" per second. Might be best for you to test your technique on a scrap panel from a breaker's yard, to get the hang of things, before hitting your own ones. Lexus paint is softish, so you shouldn't have too much trouble correcting it fairly easily. A Pro though, would also have a paint thickness gauge in his inventory, so he'd measure around the car to see what depth of clear he has to work with, and note any low areas where there's a chance of compromising the clear by taking any more off. If you're adamant to doing the correction yourself, a local Pro would be able to offer a paint report for £20-25 normally - which will be a valuable asset for you to be aware of any areas to avoid altogether or just use FF and a soft pad, to remove the lightest marks. Typically you don't want to remove more than 5µm of clear in any one session, if you can help it, since most people work on the principle of equal 3rds. So, a paintwork measuring 120µm on average, would be considered to have 40µm of clear. The acid test is to compare the door shuts with the exterior, and that should give you the most accurate idea of what you've got to work with. Be prepared that depending on what's been done to the paint previously (presuming buffed at least once before in its life) you may not be able to achieve full correction, but only 85-95%, but the deeper scratches will be less V shaped, and more rounded edges, which will make them less noticeable, and easier for the likes of AB to fill and mask/reduce further.

A cheap one won't bugger up the paint - it'll just fail to provide enough power to work the polishing compounds effectively. In other words, it'd be only so much quicker and better than if you did it by hand. A decent one - and there are other ones people use (DeWalt/Bosch/etc) that can provide good results - but the ones listed (which are classed as entry level - I use the £300 Cyclo dual head machine, others a Flex or Metabo) are pretty much designed with polishing in mind, rather than sanding. If you'd like to mention the ones you're referring to, I'd be happy to check the specs, and look at the images, and offer a reason why they might not be best suited. If they are just fine and dandy, then feel free to work away and get one, and worry not about how much it cost, but how well it does the job you expect or need it to.

Auto Balm is a sealant, but others who I've turned on to it, have used it on a single stage paint, and it would seem it will remove a bit of the paint. So, there seems to be a bit of oxidised paint removal to it, and therefore I'd say it is a bit of an AIO - all in one. The reaction is chemical, not abrasive - so it'll introduce no new marks, and has greater swirl hiding capability than AG SRP. 2 layers of AB should mask all but the most severe scratches, and give a cracking shine to the paintwork. As you'll have read, it is unique in its protection of bare metal through stonechips, etc and as the image on the site shows, it outlasts the competition by quite some margin. You'll still benefit from using it over a well prep'd paintwork, as it's that stage where the bulk of the appearance comes from - the LSP (last stage protection/product) provides the finishing touch and locks in the good work you or someone else has done. Bottom line, there's nothing else I'm aware of at this moment in time, that is like AB, and for one reason or another regarding the company and the products they turn out, is why I talk about them so enthusiastically. If they were average, run-of-the-mill, I'd say nowt, and just use them, throw them away, or switch to something better. I've not gone through the vast array of what's out there - and there are some other great and very good products too - but because I'm so pleased with having discovered them, and with what they provide me with, I don't have a burning desire to start throwing money around trying something else just for the sake of doing so. There might well be something now or down the line which usurps BH products (or specific ones) but for the life of me, I don't see it. Others, like I've said, whom I turned on to BH, have tried various and numerous other brands, and a number of them are seeing exactly what I saw all those months ago - that's vindication enough for me. As for process: wash - 2 buckets (shampoo & rinse) clay - use hose sprayer or spray bottle quick rewash dry balm - buff 2-3 mins after applying, so section at a time, rather than whole panels - especially if warm/sunny. You can apply a bit of pressure when doing this layer. Thinly does it - a little dip/wipe across the paste goes a long way. leave for 30 mins (probably enough time to do the whole car) apply 2nd layer as above - use light touch this time. stand back and admire. Of course, if you polish with a machine and compounds, you'll do this after the drying stage. Some would go the extra mile and use a 50:50 split of deionised water to IPA (isopropyl alcohol - local chemist/pharmacy) to make sure the paint is absolutely clean, so the sealant (AB or another brand) has the best possible surface with which to bond to. Do not top with carnauba wax - there's no benefit since AB is not the typical "sterile-looking" sealant, and the carrier oils/etc will probably remove the AB or the carnauba will fail to adhere to the balm, so the time and effort spent is wasted. Hope that's of interest and use.

Anything polisher-wise you see in Argos, Halfords, etc are a joke, and only fit for buffing the wax/sealant off rather than taking out swirls with a polishing compound. You're realistically looking at having to part with over the £100 mark on a Meguiar's G220/Porter Cable/UDM (the last two being US import only and 110V requiring a stepdown transformer in order to work on our 240V mains supply). By the time you add a selection of pads and polishes, you're sitting pretty at £150 ish. Good investment in the long term of course, but for some, it's easier and better money spent on employing a Pro once a year or so, and maintaining their result with proper technique and products. I've advised on what to use in my previous reply - spend some time reading and absorbing the info on the site (www.bilthamber.com) and you may agree with me that they're a rather special company among a number of me toos, who promote hype and spin over substance. Don't go thinking that buying a very expensive wax gets you something special - it most certainly doesn't! The key is the preparation (90%), the rest (10%, and that's being generous) is the wax/sealant. So, a very expensive wax on a swirled car will not enhance it any more than a £5 one will.

Cheaters guide: buy and use Bilt Hamber Auto Balm - swirls will vanish after a layer or two. Proper guide: buy and use Bilt Hamber Auto Balm, along with Auto Clay, Auto Wash, sheepskin mitt, RO polisher, Menzerna/3M polishes, and an assortment of microfibre towels, and pads . Alternatively, forego the polisher, polishes, and pads initially, and employ a local Pro detailer - there's a good few in your area - and learn to look after the car with correct and proper wash/drying technique. It's one thing to have all the toys - it's quite another to know how to use said toys in a correct manner that minimises causing the marks in the first place. So, if you wash. clay, dry the car, the Pro can remove the defects, leaving you with a clean slate to maintain thereon in. I champion the Bilt Hamber stuff on all the forums I frequent, since it IS one brand worth shouting about, and it's 100% British into the bargain. Oh, that and it's priced on the low side for no other reason than there's no marketing BS employed, etc. If this were branded or marketed as Zymöl - you'd pay 20x the £15 BH does! Collinite too to be fair to them, are thereabouts on price - and it's a good enough product. The only other carnauba wax (BH being a sealant) I like, is Dodo Juice, but again with the Double Wax and now the Supernatural, I feel they're somewhat playing the Zymöl/Swissvax angle now. Still got a lot of time for them, especially compared to Z and S - but BH is my default go to product, although I wouldn't have any qualms subbing Dodo's Shampoo for the Auto Wash, if I'd run out. But, this is an interesting fact - in BH Auto Balm, one ingredient used costs 6x the price of T1 carnauba (highest grade) flakes, yet still manages to obliterate them on price, not to mention more product as well, and which should last a long time since a little is all that is required for a nice thin layer. A very unique product in the industry - and are a first rate company who only put out product when they feel they've made something that's at least as good as the best currently, if not the best itself. Because they're not a boutique wax, it's no wonder they're relatively unheard of, but I know with my continued recommendation on Detailing World, that's changing, and knowing (to a degree) what future products are in development, they'll no longer be ignored or passed over in favour of the established players. Their new Auto Foam is THE best pre-wash (snow) foam there is currently available, but the only downside is you can only benefit from using it with a pressure washer and lance. They could've made a low pressure version, but the cleaning ability wasn't anywhere near as good as they wanted, so they decided to go with high pressure version only. Many another company would've let the low pressure one trade off the back of the high pressure one. So, the company's integrity is another major plus point, in my books. Sorry for the slight ramble - but it had to be said. Whichever route and products you choose, get the technique right to minimising swirls, and you'll end up with a lovely looking car.

Jesus, after reading this, I'm having serious thought whether better toys and spec (to a degree) over the Honda i-CDTi is enough to compensate from moving out of the 2.4 into a 220d. Very worrying some of what you guys have had done to your cars. Hmm......

No added shine - just increasing the longevity a bit more. No need to rewash, just go over with a fluffy microfibre towel to remove any settled dust.

Non-painted ones.

If I may be so bold.... You're doing more than is needed, with no benefit. In other words, waste of time and effort for no reward. I'm not convinced Scratch X is going to offer any benefit over and above the finest marks - by hand, you'll be there all night, never mind day. If the NSC is an AIO, then between the Scratch X, and Life Sealant, you're repeating steps. I'd also be suspect of any improvement a 3rd layer of LS, 48 hours after the first one.

Hard to tell from compressed pictures, but looks well. You should look at Dodo Juice Lime Prime Lite now that it's launched, under the Collinite. As a pure glaze, it should give that extra depth and wetness we all strive for and desire.

A sealant adheres to the paintwork differently from a carnauba wax, and as such, the use of a glaze prior to applying the sealant is eschewed by the manufacturers. I can only surmise the sealants used, have displaced the oils of the glaze, and therefore the glaze step was a waste of time or effort. Their attempt to pigeon hole glaze makes no sense. A polish is just that - it chemically or mechanically reacts/removes an amount of the paint/clearcoat. A glaze in the truest sense, does neither, and only serves to increase depth and/or wetness. They mention some contain abrasives - well, if that's a reference to Dodo Juice Lime Prime, they are fundamentally wrong in presuming it is a glaze, since Dodo themselves don't claim it to be. Their new LP Lite is, since it is designed to serve only the glaze function - nothing more. No filling, which again is not something a glaze should be doing. I could go on, but I'll leave it there, and say that they've not really explained things very well - in fact, almost serving to confuse the issue more. If I can find a better explanation, I'll post it up, but take it from me, glazes under sealants are pretty much a no-no.

I don't know where you think you've been lead to believe the term glaze means very fine polish - it hasn't done, afaik. People did and still do, misrepresent Lime Prime as a glaze, putting in on a par with Zymöl's HD Cleanse and Swissvax's Cleaner Fluid - neither or which have any abrasiveness to their composition. A glaze has always been something designed to give an extra depth/wetness to the paint's finish once overlaid with the chosen wax (carnauba). Anything that has abrasives is by nature, a polish - e.g. AG SRP. It's a bit like the misunderstanding that Snow Foam is only a pre-wash treatment, rather than a fully functional shampoo - which it is. Trial and error is one way of doing things - another is to listen to others who've been there and done it, or have researched the heck out of the industry, and ascertained who spins and hypes their products versus those who don't and produce good honest kit at fair prices. Polished Bliss are certainly well respected when it comes to detailing. At the end of the day, the whole LSP element is about 5-10% of the equation, the rest is the preparation to get as mirror-like a finish to your paintwork. In other words, any LSP is only ever the cherry on top of the cake, no matter how much money you throw at it.

Oops! Sorted now. Ta muchly.

Bit of a rip-off of the original Cyclo which I use - www.cyclotoolmakers.com and www.thepolishingcompany.com If you fancy splurging a bit more, get the adapters and double precision pads - an absolute Godsend, with even less vibration!

http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1559 http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2710 http://www.civinfo.com/forum/cleaning-styl...probably-2.html

Invest in a couple of good microfiber towels and buffing cloths, and ditch the chamois. If you want to hide swirls you've picked up through car washes, poor wash techniques, chamois drying, etc, then you'll be hard pushed to fault a £15 tin of Bilt Hamber Auto Balm. In fact, as this is about clay bars, I'd planned on recommending their Auto Clay, which unlike traditional bars, uses just plain old ordinary tap water. It's also 200g, compared to the 80g the Meguiar's and 100-120g others are. A full kit - clay, balm, and wash is £30, and the shampoo is one of the most concentrated on the market. Nothing bar functional cleaning ingredients are in it - unlike some other companies' shampoos, which are laced with bulking agents. So, your regime should be: Rinse car first Wash - you are using a sheepskin mitt (www.sheepskinshop.co.uk) and a separate rinse only bucket, rinsing after every panel? Clay - the wetter the better to prevent any marring Rewash Dry LSP - last stage product/protection

no,clay car, then paint cleaner,no wash,then glaze and finally sealant.if you put sealant on before glaze,the glaze will strip the sealant because it is a polish. Which glaze are we talking about? No glaze I know of removes a sealant layer, unless you're talking about Lime Prime, which isn't a glaze. Glazes, inc. Lime Prime Lite, contain no micro-abrasives, and leave a layer of oils on the surface to enhance depth/wetness, but only carnauba waxes can make use of this, as a selant 'bonds' to the paint/clearcoat entirely differently to a carnauba wax. So, if you plan on using a glaze, make sure it's directly on the paintwork, with a carnauba wax over the top. If you plan on using a sealant, make sure it's to a functionally clean paintwork, and if you so desire, throw a layer of carnauba wax over the top of that - but you'll be struggling to notice any appreciable difference.

Gliptone, Leatherique (quite expensive), LeatherMaster, are the ones most often recommended by those who know leather.