PJ S

Actually, it's not all that weighty, and what extra weight it has over the Autosmart copy, is advantageous as witnessed by the extremely low vibrations and relative lack of need to add any downward pressure when polishing.

Some images of potential interest: Click on images for larger view.

As picked up from reading Judy's replies on DW, and speaking with her, the only "conditioning" leather needs is water, which the cleaner contains. Add in the Protector, and that should keep the seats looking spick and span. http://www.lttsolutions.net/category.asp?category=11 - Auto products, the LL you mentioned is for household use, iirc.

Motul Inugel or Inugel Ultra - the latter being a concentrate, so one 5L will make 10-15L with deionised water.

Both LTT and FC have very good products, but I tend to favour LTT personally.

Ah......the old Chinese knock off of the original machine! Any questions, just ask......

Vics Concours is a very good wax, but then Dodo's aren't any slouches either. Would suggest the Diamond White, which as a harder wax, means thinner layers, which is precisely what you want for ease of applying and buffing off. Would advocate their Lime Prime Lite to add a bit of extra depth/wetness too, but not a prerequisite. If that's your car above - Silver, then scrub the LPL, as you'll see no appreciable difference, and in fact, you might be better off with a sealant on it. Something like Bilt Hamber Autobalm, or Zaino Z-2 with ZFX, and Z-8. Could use the Z-8 over the Autobalm, if so inclined, but not necessary. Equally, Dodo's new Red Mist, which is their "Z-8'".

Snow foam is a pre-wash stage, to remove as much grime as possible, leaving only the more tenacious traffic film to contend with, with your wash mitt and shampoo solution. So, after foaming, leaving to dwell for 6-8 mins, then rinsing, you wash the paintwork from top to bottom, with two buckets - shampoo solution in one, and clean rinse water in the other. Rinse the mitt each panel, before resoaping. Rinse off car, and then dry with your mf towel, except if you plan on claying. In which case, I highly suggest you forget the Meguiar's, and opt for the much better Bilt Hamber Autoclay soft. With a spray bottle of water, use a piece of the clay (1/4-1/5 the bar) to remove any bonded on contaminants, folding it over and flattening again each panel or half panel - depending on how it looks. You'll hear it, and feel the resistance change when the bar has lifted the contaminants from the surface and pores. Don't use any real downward pressure - let the clay glide over the surface until it moves freely - feeling the wet paint with a bit of clingfilm over a few fingertips is how you gauge whether it needs doing or not, and if you've got rid of it all. If you don't plan on machine polishing, then if you fancy being a hero, use Autoglym SRP with a German Applicator, to tackle the swirls and RiDS (random deep scratches), before sealing with either EGP or something a fair bit better - Autobalm from Bilt Hamber. It, like SRP, has fillers too, so it'll mask a fair bit of the defects in your paint, with 2 layers, 30-60 mins apart - more so the latter at this time of year, unless in a warmish garage. If the manual labour aspect doesn't appeal at the moment, then dispense with the AG SRP, and just apply the Autobalm on dried paintwork, although you can be a bit lazy and apply it on wet paint too. Any more help, just ask.

You'll need to budget £45 ish for a lance with the fitting required for the trigger lance - send the company whom you're buying it from a pic, so they can send the right type. Either cleanyourcar or autobritedirect.co.uk. The lance is used with high pressure feed, so the detergent tank on the pw is not in use (only sucks on low pressure setting), and you'll be diluting the foam in the lance container, as per the maths in the link above. That's it, you'll be pre-wash foaming from then on.

If you believe it's the same cleanliness after using, then fair enough. I suspect the reason the "pros" are saying the same thing regarding 1" or 20-50ml, is because they simply can't be arsed to bother going through the rigmaroll of doing the maths. I can't speak for them, all I know is Autofoam works as it does, and BH have tested against the other brands they were going to encounter upon entering the arena with the whitebox test. Their products are extremely concentrated - Surfex HD, Autowash, and even Autobalm. Heck, the Autoclay is the biggest bargain with its composition and size for the price. All other 200g bars are well over £10/11, and nowhere near as effective whilst being benign to the paintwork. Obviously I'm not privy to the formulation of AF, nor the other brands marketed as Snow Foam or Foaming TFR, so I can't say what level of active ingredients are in them, but I would question the aspect that they are 10x more effective than AF is, based on those numbers thrown about here. Again, I point out Jetwash themselves agree the usage strength is of the foam itself, not the solution in the container being fed into the water stream - so straight away that throws the whole 1"/20-50ml argument up in the air. Both sets of figures can't be right! And given the numerous lengthy conversations I've had with BH about this and other things, I know they're not BS'ing. So, all I can honestly say, is some people must be deluding themselves that their pre-wash foaming routine is actually doing as much as it could/should/would if the right dosage was being used. At this juncture, I'm bowing out of this thread, as I can think of nothing more I can add nor do to convince you/Tango/others lurking, that the correct usage involves a bit more than a dollop of foam topped up to the brim with warm water. By all means, speak to BH and see if Pete can make a better case as to why he's/I'm right, and the "dollopers" are not. I should point out, the mix ratio above I used, was an example, and not offered as hard and fast fact. Chances are the max setting on the lances sold by CYC, Auto-Rae Chem, and Autobrite Direct, are in and around the 5-7:1 mark - so the resultant amount of other foams, whilst less than BH's, is still a similar ballpark amount.

The point about output (flow rate) I've mentioned, is not related to the mains pressure feeding the pw, but rather what the pw itself is designed/capable of chucking out. So, if the pw you're using is fed with sufficient flow rate via the hosepipe attached, and has say a 6L per min output, whereas the one I use has 11L/min, then the dilution of the solution in the lance container in mine (assuming yours and my settings are the same, and uptake is identical even with tolerance factored in), then for the same amount of time you and I depress the trigger on our lances, I'll have nearly half the PIR % on my paintwork, as you do on yours. So, if I were to adopt your 1" or whatever suggested measurement (assuming once again both containers were identical in diameter), then you can see why I wouldn't see the same resultant blanket of foam as you do. This is why I believe, as anal as it may seem, the methodology suggested in the link is the only true one which everybody can use, so that they're all getting the same resultant output. Only then, can true and proper comparisons between the various different brands (a lot are the same stuff re/self-branded) be made in relation to their effectiveness. Trust me, if I thought for one moment it was BS, and that an inch of foam, topped up with warm water (using a cold water pick up!) was suitable advice for everyone to make use of, I wouldn't go to the lengths I have here in this thread.

You're right - not consistent advice, but then my earlier reply was based on the presumption that thick shaving foam almost always tends to occur when too much product has been used. Not being au fait with Jetwash's Snow Foam, it would appear they have a heck of a lot of foaming agents in it. Equally, the uncertainty of the nature of the TFR (could be a generic caustic formulation, as a number are), gave rise to the concern over its LSP stripping potential. That said, irrespective of the earlier comments, the fact remains you've misunderstood what information was being given to you, or it took me to extract the correct info from Steve this afternoon. Either way, the point is you should be aiming for 1-5% strength as the foam hits the car, which you're currently not achieving if you make the lance solution even 10% strong. Do the maths as pointed out, just the once even, and see what difference it makes - aim for 2% strength (depending on the grime level) just to be safer than sorrier. If it works, there you go then - if not, then revert back to what you're doing now. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! But, if the advice offered is falling on deaf ears, then there's nothing more to be said on the matter, and you should carry on regardless - just don't take the opportunity to call it BS, when you don't know the full ins and outs. As I've already demonstrated, one phone call put the right information into this thread with regards to the brand of foam you introduced into it - that's because I knew the right questions to ask. Not trying to be anything other than helpful where possible (certainly not big-headed), but when it comes to disagreeing with something, I work on the principle that it generally helps to have at least a modicum of knowledge about the subject under discussion. And finally, there's no agenda here - it matters not which brand of Snow Foam anyone uses, all I'm aiming to do is enlighten those users with some knowledge they may have never otherwise came to learn about. As always when it comes to freely given advice, everyone is free to ignore it should they choose to do so.

Again, I reiterate (without wanting to get into an argument over this) there is no BS at work here! You should only need 500ml of solution to to a typical car, and wheels/arches. With BH AF, they've conducted a whitebox test, which is a repeatable test using specific criteria, and their foam pulled off the most dirt. Now, if you're entirely happy with what you're using, and the methodology, then feel free to ignore the above, and continue on as you are/have been - BUT I will point out you've got your figure wrong. I've just got off the phone with Steve from Jetwash, and after a few probing questions, it came to light the dilution ratio/percentage of 1-5% being discussed, was NOT the lance container solution strength, but the output at the nozzle of the pw. In other words, the PIR that I referred to above. Therefore, if your lance setting and pw outputs 16L of water in total, by the time the lance container's 1L has been uplifted, then you're running a 15:1 ratio. Ergo, the 1-5% you thought was the container solution, should be much higher. So 50ml suddenly becomes 750ml! Divide by 2 for a half-full container, and you're at 375ml - 35ml MORE than BH's Autofoam. So, there you are - now you know what you SHOULD be doing to achieve the right amount of foam strength. If you don't believe me, please spend 5 mins talking with Pete at Bilt Hamber - he'll explain it all to you. The 1" thing harks back to when the hosepipe attached Gilmore Foamaster was the new toy in the detailing circles, and people who've not bothered to research the subject matter to death like some *cough* *cough*, were transferring their flawed logic over to the pressure washer/foam lance method. Water hardness also plays a part in the amount of product needed - but some, like BH AF, are coming with chelating agents as part of the ingredients to make hard water an non-issue, meaning everyone can use the same amount irrespective of their water's mineral content.

Yes, you are missing the point of the exercise. TFR - spot on LSP - last stage product/protection (wax or sealant) The purpose of foaming, is a pre-wash looser grime remover - somewhat the same as pressure sprayer and TFR or one of numerous various pre-wash cleaner (glorified APC's - [Meguiar's] All Purpose Cleaner) This foaming or sprayer stage with rinsing afterwards, is to reduce the amount of grit on the surfaces, giving the user less to potentially add fresh new swirls/scratches into their paintwork with - especially if they've just spent umpteen hours polishing them out the week before! Not everyone goes for it - cost can be a bit of a factor, but it's yet another process aimed at reducing the amount of touching the paintwork gets. The ideal scenario, would be a complete touchless wash/dry, and where the LSP is still left, unscathed, to continue doing its job.

Check the link Stevie posted up, and follow it. Of course, finding out the solution strength first would be handy, as BH AF is 4%, and others may be as low as 1-2% to be LSP safe. Regarding the previous post - TFRs were designed for commercial vehicles. The fact the dealerships have taken them as well for quickness doesn't make what I wrote incorrect. They are aggressive, and designed to strip everything off, which the dealers' valeters will be putting back once they've finished. Some of the old TFR formulas are now being reformulated to create the pH neutral foams that are starting to filter through, and more designed for detailers wishing to keep their LSP as intact as possible. If you can also manage to use warm water (ask about the product's Cloud Point) at the Cloud Point, you'll find the foam and bucketful of shampoo solution will be more active than with cold water - depending on the CP it was designed for. This is part of the reason dealers will use 90ºC with the TFR sprayed on using a manual pressure sprayer.

No BS Tango - just honest opinion and appraisal of what's the best method for using foam. The aspect of your reply that I've bolded, is contradictory - the foam releases grime on both LSPs and bare paintwork just as effectively. That you find your wax doesn't last too long, so needs a reapplication hints at either the wax being a poor performer (no idea which one you use) or that your washing solutions (foam and shampoo) are a bit too strong. As Stevie has linked, the thread there details how to ascertain the PIR with your particular lance, its setting, and the pw you own - one with a greater flow rate will go through more product in the same space of time than one with half as much flow rate does. This through the maths there, will show what the suggested/recommend amount of foam and water the lance container should have, in order to achieve the LSP safe PIR level the manufacturer/supplier recommends. The notion that 1" or whatever the proffered level is, is well intentioned, but falls well short of being meaningful or useful to anyone other than the profferer and someone whose flow-rate and lance output are identical. This is highly unlikely due to tolerances used in the manufacture of the lances, the pw - as well as the mains pressure at each individual's home. I would suggest it worth your while having a chat with the supplier of your foam, and get their PIR strength (a percentage), and doing the maths to get that accurately. See if that has an effect on your wax longevity - assuming the wash solution isn't too much as well.

It's a TFR designed for commercial vehicles - I'd be very confident in saying you'll have probably removed your LSP after using that. You might have edited the spacing in your advert there! :P

If that's the case, you've used too much product. It should NOT be like shaving foam, and by 6-8 mins, look like it's almost gone. You'll soon find the right setting and amount to use, so that you're using enough to do what it's intended to do, but not too much so that it removes or weakens your LSP.

Brass, larger container, variable mix ratio - all cost more to implement and manufacture, than a smaller bit of plastic does. Simple as that really.

A thick foam, whilst looking lovely and pretty, is practically next to useless for cleaning ability - you should be looking at a consistency of double cream, and letting dwell for at least 6-8 mins. As per the calculation thread above, you should try and find out what PIR the foam you use, is recommended at. Measurements based on cms, mms, ins, whilst well meaning, are meaningless if the pressure and flow rate of the attached pw are not equal for the other various users. So one user will get great foam, others going by the same measurement, may get a very different output. At the mentioned amount, I'd hazard a guess that you've got a very weak solution, which may foam well, but is not really being all that effective for doing the task intended. It's no secret I'm a big BH fan, and of course user, but it's with very good reasons - their foam being just one of them. So, try doing the maths with your pw if/when you get a PIR figure to work with, and see the difference that makes. @ Wylie - as already stated above, foaming is a pre-cursor to the 2 bucket method of washing, so that most of the looser grime, and bigger particulate matter has been removed, thereby offering the mitt or Zymöl/B&Q grout sponge less to potentially move across the paintwork when you wash the car. As said, depending on the level of dirtiness, you may find you can get away with just foaming for a mid-week wash - completely touchless if you rinsed with filtered water, leaving no water spots when left to dry unaided.

Ah, gotcha now.

i use furniture clinic products on the car and in house,i would recommend them. So you'd recommend FC products rather than baby shampoo, or am I getting my wires crossed? Slightly confused.

Please Steve, do not borrow the saddle soap - it's named as such for very obvious reasons. Think for a moment, about the difference between the leather used for a saddle, and the environment it's likely to be used in, and that of the car's seating/interior - they're a world apart. Spend a bit of money doing it properly and safely via LTT Solutions or Furniture Clinc - both have the right products to do the job without risk.

Bilt Hamber Autoclay soft should be all you need

Bazza was spot on - 2 months to allow the offgassing process to finish, then the paint will be fully cured. Keep a plush mf cloth, and quick detailer and water handy in the car for softening and removing any birdcrap. If you've a pressure washer, might be worth investing in a foam lance, and use this to minimise the risk of inflicting swirls in the paint.