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2 hours ago, Malc said:

the guy is a seasoned engineer dealing with motorbike engines and their issues over a lifetime

That's good news then, I'm so glad he is not a metallurgist with a head full of verifiable statistics

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It is also worth remembering that higher concentrations of Ethanol have been used in petrol in Europe, certainly Spain, for a number of years. Not aware of any issues, and whilst I would prefer that not to be the case, I extensively used the petrol without any noticeable difference, or up to now any problems.

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3 hours ago, Greer said:

You get people like that who just come out with nonsense for no 'apparent' reason, I have never heard of it or anything like it before now & unless someone can link a study from a 'credible' source, other that the local pub, then I'll wait for      a) Study details b) Statistical results, untill then I'll choose to ignore it

 

With metal parts what happens is because motorbikes are often used infrequently - the Ethanol pulls in water - you can if you desire separate Ethanol from petrol by adding water then draining off the petrol from the bottom. So for bikes with steel tanks it is the water that rots the tank. This can happen anyway without Ethanol so it's hard to say if it's worse or not in steel tanks.

With Nylon based tanks they tend to swell and distort due to ethanol being left in over winter. Clearly modern car tanks are designed to accept it.

Ethanol does seem to swell and harden a lot of rubber tubes and seals on vehicles of an older vintage, I have seen fuel hose that snaps like brittle plastic. Clearly modern vehicles will have different rubber to resist it. 

 

As far as I am aware - the only Super Unleaded available without ethanol is BP Ultimate. I emailed all the major players and they all replied that Ethanol was present in super but not necessarily 5%. Only BP state it isn't.

 

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/media/fuel-news/fuel-octane-power.pdf

 

 

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Just a point but the BP article is dated 2010, and relates to Australia, so things might have changed.

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I had read that Sainsburys fuel is (or at least was) supplied from BP - Sainsburys are showing the E5 sticker on both standard and super unleaded - of course their supply may have changed since I read that...

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7 minutes ago, RgrWynne said:

Just a point but the BP article is dated 2010, and relates to Australia, so things might have changed.

OOps - I linked the wrong one - I had previously found a UK statement last year.

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It really does not matter who the supplier is, all fuel comes from the nearest or most  convenient refinery. The difference is the specification and/or the additives, for each brand. This is effected at the refinery, whether that be Esso Fawley, Shell Stanlow, BP Grangemouth or wherever.

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16 minutes ago, RgrWynne said:

It really does not matter who the supplier is, all fuel comes from the nearest or most  convenient refinery. The difference is the specification and/or the additives, for each brand. This is effected at the refinery, whether that be Esso Fawley, Shell Stanlow, BP Grangemouth or wherever.

Yep agreed - just that if BP were supplying to Sainsburys then although the additives may be different I would have expected the ethanol content to be the same - related to the above about BP Super Unleaded having no ethanol but Sainsburys shows as E5 for their super unleaded (unless they have just done that regardless of course to cover themselves).

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https://www.esso.co.uk/fuels-faqs
So Esso Supreme+ Unleaded 97 is Ethanol free.

BP Ultimate is claimed to be Ethanol free, but their site is very out of date (2010) so not sure.
Shell has Ethanol in all their petrol as do Texaco, Tesco & Sainsburys, and most others.

 

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5 hours ago, Malc said:

the guy is a seasoned engineer dealing with motorbike engines and their issues over a lifetime

So of the millions of motor cycles sold in the UK over this past 50 years an (one) engineer ( can you specify what kind of engineer?) seems to have come up, with what? specifics please

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1 hour ago, BigBoomer said:

https://www.esso.co.uk/fuels-faqs
So Esso Supreme+ Unleaded 97 is Ethanol free.

BP Ultimate is claimed to be Ethanol free, but their site is very out of date (2010) so not sure.
Shell has Ethanol in all their petrol as do Texaco, Tesco & Sainsburys, and most others.

 

I understand 5% ethanol is a legal requirement in 95 ron and currently in SUL a choice left to manufacturers.

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2 hours ago, Greer said:

specifics please

I really can't be bothered

sorry i raised this thread

guess i won't be raising anymore, life doesn't need to be so difficult you know

bye

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Ethanol in fuel means that it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere and holds it in the fuel.
Over time that settles to the bottom of the tank as petrol is lighter than water.
The water then causes rust in the tank leading to clogged filters, damaged pumps, clogged injectors and poor running, and will eventually lead to leaks in mild steel tanks.
The Ethanol itself can lead to problems with rubber seals on some pre-80s vehicles, but almost all made since 1980 can handle Ethanol.

If a car or motorcycle has been designed with Ethanol in mind, then they use a different kind of rubber for the seals, and the top manufacturers line their fuel tanks with a petrol/ethanol/water resistant coating or make them from stainless steel. Because of crash testing, many car fuel tanks now have deformable liners to prevent leaks in the event of the tank taking damage.

My 1989 Kawasaki GTR1000 has handled Ethanol in the fuel for nearly 200,000 miles. Yes, the first fuel tank sprung a rust leak after 120k miles, but otherwise the carbs are as they came from the factory apart from a couple of cleans and new carb-airbox rubbers as the originals went rock hard.
I really don't think you need to worry about Ethanol in petrol for your LS400/430/460/600s.
Any rust in the tank will show up in the fuel filter pretty quick and the rest of the system was designed to handle it. 😉:thumbup:

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It seems that it is generally accepted that ethanol increases fuel consumption as its specific energy is lower than standard petrol.

When fuel consumption figures are quoted for cars under the new scheme recently introduced, what fuel are they allowed to use for the testing? If it were me, I would put "this vehicle is designed for 99RON fuel but can run on 95RON E10" in the handbook straight away as a "get out of jail free card".

If E10 reduces mileage by, say, 15% over pure super unleaded, will the extra fuel burned outweigh the claimed CO2 emission savings?  

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I noticed recently that all of Shell's pumps are now clearly stating how much "non-fuel" is in their products.

Shell.thumb.jpg.4ebc51e78f5cd95740dfe3a24f46d644.jpg

 

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