Government launches plan to put drivers back in the driving

[Linas.P]

Seems like too little too late, but I am hoping this will gain momentum i.e. hopefully it creates sentiment that drivers are prayed upon unfairly? Obviously, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough, but maybe that is first step.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-plan-to-put-drivers-back-in-the-driving-seat

I have worry about this now becoming political problem, but I can't see any other way of this continuing... as hating on drivers was political for very long as well, so rebalancing was clearly needed. It is quite obvious that conservatives realised that majority is tired of hostile rules on the roads and such policy will be popular with voters, so this is done for one reason only - getting more votes.

Now whenever it actually improves driving remains to be seen... but as much as I hate to admit it, this may become quite tempting reason to vote conservative. And if they get votes for it and realised it worked, then I am sure they will double down next time around. 

[Boomer54]

11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Seems like too little too late, but I am hoping this will gain momentum i.e. hopefully it creates sentiment that drivers are prayed upon unfairly? Obviously, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough, but maybe that is first step.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-plan-to-put-drivers-back-in-the-driving-seat

I have worry about this now becoming political problem, but I can't see any other way of this continuing... as hating on drivers was political for very long as well, so rebalancing was clearly needed. It is quite obvious that conservatives realised that majority is tired of hostile rules on the roads and such policy will be popular with voters, so this is done for one reason only - getting more votes.

Now whenever it actually improves driving remains to be seen... but as much as I hate to admit it, this may become quite tempting reason to vote conservative. And if they get votes for it and realised it worked, then I am sure they will double down next time around. 

Politics being politics it does not necessarily mean "majority is tired of hostile rules on the roads", but it would be reasonable to say perhaps they thought there were marginal votes to be gained on this issue. Indeed, this appears to be just one of several moves which you could arguably say are a nudge to the right. Withdrawing from European rights would be another if it were to happen. Putting some muscle behind the immigration issue in general is the same same. Backing off other 'green' issues smacks of the same.

If I had to guess they appear to be trying to make a clearer demarcation between themselves and Labour and in doing so are perhaps trying to force Labours hand to be clearer themselves on the same issues.

[Linas.P]

Yes sadly this whole argument is not for better of anyone, but the politicians themselves, and again sadly it seems in this case it seems to coincide with what I would be seeking for example - backing-off stupid green agenda which wasn't necessary and would not work anyway and now as well going onto protecting the driver interest, or at least pretending to do it.

As well I don't believe this is marginal issue, obviously I am biased because my position is well known on this, but I believe this is potentially quite topical. Just think about Wales - up-to 100,000 people protested against 20MPH limit, 250,000 signed petition... even if they get 10% of those to flip when it comes to time of voting this will be major change. As well consider London and generally bigger cities across UK that have ULEZ and that were labour strongholds - people so frustrated with restrictions that they go as far as committing crimes to damage cameras, so likely they will go as far as voting differently when it comes to it. I may be wrong, but I think you are under estimating the support for these policies. 

Again - I hate it is conservatives that are bringing them as I generally don't like them, same people who wants to quite ECHR, but I am just recognising that these may be very successful in elections. 

Now I am even unsure if I want them to succeed or not, if they fail, then this will be last ever attempt to make it right for the drivers, but if they succeed then I will feel guilty of trading human rights for sensible driving conditions. 

[wharfhouse]

36 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Seems like too little too late, but I am hoping this will gain momentum i.e. hopefully it creates sentiment that drivers are prayed upon unfairly? Obviously, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough, but maybe that is first step.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-plan-to-put-drivers-back-in-the-driving-seat

I have worry about this now becoming political problem, but I can't see any other way of this continuing... as hating on drivers was political for very long as well, so rebalancing was clearly needed. It is quite obvious that conservatives realised that majority is tired of hostile rules on the roads and such policy will be popular with voters, so this is done for one reason only - getting more votes.

Now whenever it actually improves driving remains to be seen... but as much as I hate to admit it, this may become quite tempting reason to vote conservative. And if they get votes for it and realised it worked, then I am sure they will double down next time around. 

It will be interesting to see if the Conservatives actually follow through on any of these pledges (if re-elected) and if re-elected whether they can actually get local councils to align or whether the local councils will continue to do their own thing now the cat is out of the bag and they have had a taste of absolute power over us motorists...!

A while ago I had an on-going conversation about a council car parking policy (I won't go into details here) over which I spoke to my MP and the Department of Levelling Up - the result from government was that they were equally concerned as I was over the issue I was raising but that they had no power over the local council to force any change - hence my comments above as to whether this is all words and councils will find ways around it all to hold onto their "power"...

[Lmafudd]

Could this include undoing the latest ludicrous rules for cyclists possibly? 20mph would be an improvement when compared to some of the pelotons I am forced to follow through the leafy lanes of Leicestershire. 

Politicians only really do anything for one reason and it's not to improve the lot of we common folk.

Tories will get drubbed. Labour will get in. The economy will turn to sh**t and then the tories will be back again. That's how it's always been during my voting years and I see no change.

Thank goodness the Green's have little chance or we'd all be on bikes and not in our lovely cars, Lexus or otherwise!

[Linas.P]

16 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

It will be interesting to see if the Conservatives actually follow through on any of these pledges (if re-elected) and if re-elected whether they can actually get local councils to align or whether the local councils will continue to do their own thing now the cat is out of the bag and they have had a taste of absolute power over us motorists...!

A while ago I had an on-going conversation about a council car parking policy (I won't go into details here) over which I spoke to my MP and the Department of Levelling Up - the result from government was that they were equally concerned as I was over the issue I was raising but that they had no power over the local council to force any change - hence my comments above as to whether this is all words and councils will find ways around it all to hold onto their "power"...

That is good point - not only it is too little too late, but as well, as it is always the case, we can't even be sure it could be done. 

Altogether I believe local authorities should have no say over fines, it seems quite obvious that they would use it to make money. Should have never been allowed in the first place. Local authorities should be able to put restrictions in, but only national government should be able to take the money, as such any incentive to increase local budget should be removed.

I guess the answer is then - government has control over DVLA and without driver details local authorities can't do anything... but then DVLA becomes political tool to punish labour authorities...

As I said - the political aspect of all this is very unfortunate and politicising anything will make it worse. Although at the same time - anti-driving policies were politicised, so if we have politicised policies it is probably better to at least have it in "our benefit".

14 minutes ago, Lmafudd said:

Could this include undoing the latest ludicrous rules for cyclists possibly? 20mph would be an improvement when compared to some of the pelotons I am forced to follow through the leafy lanes of Leicestershire. 

Yeah - ideally the whole "road hierarchy" idea. Cycling is good and all, but I believe they should have their own infrastructure, for their own sake and safety as well. 

[First_Lexus]

These announcements are just politics, nothing more than a (probably futile) attempt to retain power. There hasn’t been a ‘road to Damascus’ moment for Sunak, he is simply changing policy in order to try and attract votes - after all, that’s what politicians do. They need to be in power in order to do anything.

As @Boomer54said, this is likely a political trap for Labour who, in common with most opposition parties, are vague about the detail of their own proposals. As Andrew Marr broke on Friday, Labour oppose scrapping the Manchester leg of HS2 but won’t reinstate it if they win power, and oppose the new Shetland oil field but won’t shut it down if they return to office. Presenting their ‘green’ policies as an attack on drivers and households, as was successful for the Conservatives with ULEZ in Uxbridge, is the aim here - hoping for clear differences between the parties on some issues - it’s as simple as that.

In reality I can’t see this will shift the dial enough. Regardless of what we may think, or what political commentators obsess about, it’s all about the economy. If people feel good and confident, they’ll vote for the party who (they perceive) delivered that. There have been exceptions to this rule  - 2019 was one - but not many. I don’t think green issues will be anything more than a minor distraction in any coming election tbh.

[Linas.P]

30 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

These announcements are just politics, nothing more than a (probably futile) attempt to retain power. There hasn’t been a ‘road to Damascus’ moment for Sunak, he is simply changing policy in order to try and attract votes - after all, that’s what politicians do. They need to be in power in order to do anything.

As @Boomer54said, this is likely a political trap for Labour who, in common with most opposition parties, are vague about the detail of their own proposals. As Andrew Marr broke on Friday, Labour oppose scrapping the Manchester leg of HS2 but won’t reinstate it if they win power, and oppose the new Shetland oil field but won’t shut it down if they return to office. Presenting their ‘green’ policies as an attack on drivers and households, as was successful for the Conservatives with ULEZ in Uxbridge, is the aim here - hoping for clear differences between the parties on some issues - it’s as simple as that.

In reality I can’t see this will shift the dial enough. Regardless of what we may think, or what political commentators obsess about, it’s all about the economy. If people feel good and confident, they’ll vote for the party who (they perceive) delivered that. There have been exceptions to this rule  - 2019 was one - but not many. I don’t think green issues will be anything more than a minor distraction in any coming election tbh.

But that is still a shift from - "drivers are evil and we should stamp them out like cockroaches" to "drivers are just people like any other and should be treated fairly". 

I believe the impact of this policy will depend on whenever it is successful winning the votes/election or not. 

It is certainly just political and frankly a populist move, but I still think you both underestimate the size of it. For example ECHR is something majority people have never dealt with, nor they would be impacted either way, but driving is daily thing for millions of people and almost every driver can relate to being penalised and charged in a way that didn't feel fair, nor justified. And I am not saying this goes anywhere near to make it just, nor that it necessary going to get implemented, but that is the perceived goal of the policy - they want to attract votes by saying "they will make driving conditions fairer".

[Cotswold Pete]

I like driving, I like walking, I like cycling, I like drivers to respect me whichever I am doing as I try to do when I am doing any of the 3 activities

I liked it in Holland where they remove all road markings in a lot of urban areas, that means pedestrians/cyclist and drivers need to keep their wits about them and as a result all are a little more cautious and a 'natural for the environment' speed is attained.

I live in a 20mph zone, and I agree it is hard to do, as it feels like your going backwards, but once when driving at 10mph I had a little kid run out and nearly go under my front wheel, and it shocked me how I was caught off guard; at 30 they would have been meat. In the 20mph zone I live about 90% of cars are still doing 30 (or more).

I also know that at 20 I am doing less mpg, which with and EV is not an issue.

I would add when I was young I was as much a 'tear-away' as any numpty who tries to pass me at 60 in their souped up 206 in a 30mph zone. So I get that young bloods have not learnt to control their need for speed. I am amazed I am alive given some of  the things I did when driving back 40 years ago.

[GMB]

6 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

I live in a 20mph zone, and I agree it is hard to do, as it feels like your going backwards, but once when driving at 10mph I had a little kid run out and nearly go under my front wheel, and it shocked me how I was caught off guard; at 30 they would have been meat. In the 20mph zone I live about 90% of cars are still doing 30 (or more)

Similar thing happened to me. Kids will step into the road at any time and any place. I was in a queue of vehicles doing about 10 mph and a child stepped onto a zebra crossing straight into the road directly in front of me - about 2 feet from the car!! I stopped dead and no harm was done, but the mother went berserk. I reviewed the camera footage and could see the child walking down the pavement, stepped behind her mother and out straight into the road with her head buried in her phone and without a single look or hesitation.

Thank God I had the camera because if I had hit her I would be the villain ( on a zebra crossing ).

I had not seen this coming at all and luckily was paying a lot of attention to the road etc at the time because it was very busy.

I also had a situation where a man stepped out of a shop backwards and fell/tripped off the shop step into the road right in front of me. I just managed to swerve around him.

BTW this all happened in France where pedestrians are even more unpredictable than here.

[Boomer54]

Just a few days after picking up my new Bmw (spit) Tourer I nudged out of my driveway. Just the bumper then the bonnet very slowly as the hedge causes line of vision issues except pedestrians are easy to see through the bottom of the hedge. Wallop ! Paperboy zooming along the pavement on his bike hit the front light and catapulted over the bonnet onto the pavement beyond. My heart was literally in my mouth, adrenaline rush, trembling fingers and all of that stuff. Anyway, put it in neutral and jumped out to see the damage. Fortunately, the car was barely touched with just the headlight cracked. No idea about the paperboy, but I assume he was alright as he wasn't there when I got back later in the day. 😉

OK, fess up, wife jumped out and sorted him out much better than I could with her best hospital bedside manner. On balance that was probably better than me hauling him up for a tongue lashing.

[Boomer54]

2 hours ago, Cotswold Pete said:

I like driving, I like walking, I like cycling, I like drivers to respect me whichever I am doing as I try to do when I am doing any of the 3 activities

I liked it in Holland where they remove all road markings in a lot of urban areas, that means pedestrians/cyclist and drivers need to keep their wits about them and as a result all are a little more cautious and a 'natural for the environment' speed is attained.

I live in a 20mph zone, and I agree it is hard to do, as it feels like your going backwards, but once when driving at 10mph I had a little kid run out and nearly go under my front wheel, and it shocked me how I was caught off guard; at 30 they would have been meat. In the 20mph zone I live about 90% of cars are still doing 30 (or more).

I also know that at 20 I am doing less mpg, which with and EV is not an issue.

I would add when I was young I was as much a 'tear-away' as any numpty who tries to pass me at 60 in their souped up 206 in a 30mph zone. So I get that young bloods have not learnt to control their need for speed. I am amazed I am alive given some of  the things I did when driving back 40 years ago.

Having just returned from Rotterdam I would describe it as an unholy mess. If there is order amongst the chaos of traffic I couldn't spot it. If the bikes don't get you the cars might and if they miss you the trams won't. On the surface of it I am not sure that their  modus operandi really works for anyone. Would love to know their data on hospital admissions.

[Boomer54]

Interesting link..

Netherlands: cyclist road fatalities 2022 | Statista

Not surprising having watched it in action for just one day.

[Bluemarlin]

2 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

Interesting link..

Netherlands: cyclist road fatalities 2022 | Statista

Not surprising having watched it in action for just one day.

There are some interesting stats from the Netherlands, that I've just picked up from a quick Google search, such as:

More than half of the road deaths are cyclists over 75 years old, with 85% being over 50.

66% of deaths are over 65s, and yet they only cover 3% of the miles.

25% of fatalities were on e-bikes, mostly men over 65.

The recent increase has been entirely male, with female deaths dropping. It also seems to be confined to older men, as I believe deaths among under 30s dropped.

Helmets are rarely used.

25% of deaths involve no collision with another vehicle or object, just riders falling off or slipping.

Conversely, cyclings has increased, and so the deaths per km ridden has gone down.

Most concerning for those interested in speed limits is that whilst only 10% of bicycle kilometers are on 50 km/h (31 mph) roads, they account for 40% of the fatalities.

Make of all that what you will, but on the face of it, it looks like a large part of the problem is an ever increasing number of older people in the Netherlands, who in turn are turning to cycling and e-bikes.

[Cotswold Pete]

23 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Make of all that what you will, but on the face of it, it looks like a large part of the problem is an ever increasing number of older people in the Netherlands, who in turn are turning to cycling and e-bikes.

I am retiring next year, was thinking of getting out and about on the wifes e-bike while she slaves over a works computer for a couple more years.  All  these stats suggest maybe I should stick to becoming a couch potatoe.

[Lmafudd]

44 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

I am retiring next year, was thinking of getting out and about on the wifes e-bike while she slaves over a works computer for a couple more years.  All  these stats suggest maybe I should stick to becoming a couch potatoe.

And that's Holland! They've banned hills there I believe! Maybe just use the bike to get to the cake shop and back Pete!

[Malc1]

5 minutes ago, Lmafudd said:

And that's Holland! They've banned hills there I believe!

Mountain Bike sales there are very very poor and slow I understand too  🙄

Malc

[Boomer54]

39 minutes ago, Lmafudd said:

And that's Holland! They've banned hills there I believe! Maybe just use the bike to get to the cake shop and back Pete!

Lot to be said for that.