Tte S/c Group Buy?

[lee_iceman]

Sorry guys can´t see how a supercharger can produce lag????

Sounds more like the belt could be slipping Kazi, seeing as its secondhand, has your belt been replaced?

Probably try that first, cheaper then anything else.

Good luck mate.

[Kazi]

Brand spanking Gen TTE belt mate. From what everyone says its the norm.

[Pip]

No one said anything about NEEDING bigger injectors/f-Con etc. What was said to take advantage and to get an apparent increase in power ie. Fever putting out 200rwhp through this. But again there still has been no evidence of this, Mark.

[Gord]

Look at the Tdi injector/HKS camcom thread Kazi. Roughly £2000 i think.

How can getting more air help when it is running lean?! (fuelling issue)

Addressing the fuel issue would be the answer.

And how is Kazi, going to Address is fuelling issue then ???

[Gord]

With the standard TTE supercharger set-up using TTE airbox or induction kit, you dont need bigger injectors at all, you just need to have your ECU set-up via a piggy back ECU, to make sure you are running right.

Many a supercharged is200's have been running for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems, then someone that is trying to sell injectors says you need them, come on :o when i have mine done very soon i will show you all how lean or not it is running.

What Mark actually said was that if you were running modified inlet and exhaust that the standard injectors were not capable of delivering enough fuel at the top end to give the maximum power that the set up is capable of.

The TTE S/C kit comes with a piggy back "chip" pre-programmed to alter the ECU settings to compensate so in theory you don't even need anything else.

The chances are that your engine is already running too lean.

Basically the better the exhaust manifold the leaner it will run because more power needs more fuel.

Although we did evaluate the brand of manifod you have for comparitive purposes against others, we did not test it for the purposes you are concerned about so cannot give you a definate answer.

However, installing a Camcon is your next step in the right direction but you should also consider an injector and ecu upgrade as this is a substantial improvement and opens the gate for significant further gains.

Thats what Mark said, and thats only fitting manifold, and i still dont think you need injectors for just fitting manifold with the s/c kit.

[Pip]

With the standard TTE supercharger set-up using TTE airbox or induction kit, you dont need bigger injectors at all, you just need to have your ECU set-up via a piggy back ECU, to make sure you are running right.

Many a supercharged is200's have been running for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems, then someone that is trying to sell injectors says you need them, come on :o when i have mine done very soon i will show you all how lean or not it is running.

What Mark actually said was that if you were running modified inlet and exhaust that the standard injectors were not capable of delivering enough fuel at the top end to give the maximum power that the set up is capable of.

The TTE S/C kit comes with a piggy back "chip" pre-programmed to alter the ECU settings to compensate so in theory you don't even need anything else.

The chances are that your engine is already running too lean.

Basically the better the exhaust manifold the leaner it will run because more power needs more fuel.

Although we did evaluate the brand of manifod you have for comparitive purposes against others, we did not test it for the purposes you are concerned about so cannot give you a definate answer.

However, installing a Camcon is your next step in the right direction but you should also consider an injector and ecu upgrade as this is a substantial improvement and opens the gate for significant further gains.

Thats what Mark said, and thats only fitting manifold, and i still dont think you need injectors for just fitting manifold with the s/c kit.

LOL..thats another way of looking at it, never seen it like that. :D I think why ppl are taking about the injector thing is not that the s/c needs it, its more of nit picking with the issue of s/c 'lag' or it 'running lean' as Mark says.

Again Gord we havent seen any evidence to back up what Mark is saying and whether it does cure it.

[MacRS200]

LOL..thats another way of looking at it, never seen it like that. :D I think why ppl are taking about the injector thing is not that the s/c needs it, its more of nit picking with the issue of s/c 'lag' or it 'running lean' as Mark says.

Not exactly

Power is the rate of conversion of energy, in the case of an engine it is how fast can you turn petrol into exhaust gas and bung it down the pipe.

The "injector thing" is the maximum amount of fuel that the injectors can deliver at high revs when air is being pushed into the engine. That limits the power that the engine can produce. This assumes that you have opened up the exhaust flow by changing the manifold and exhaust to let it out the other side.

"Running lean", connected to lag, is not getting enough fuel at lower revs when you floor it.

[Kazi]

So in theory then, what your saying is, if I get the manfold this lag will no longer be present?

Im aware of another manifold up for sale.......

[Pip]

LOL..thats another way of looking at it, never seen it like that. :D I think why ppl are taking about the injector thing is not that the s/c needs it, its more of nit picking with the issue of s/c 'lag' or it 'running lean' as Mark says.

Not exactly

Power is the rate of conversion of energy, in the case of an engine it is how fast can you turn petrol into exhaust gas and bung it down the pipe.

The "injector thing" is the maximum amount of fuel that the injectors can deliver at high revs when air is being pushed into the engine. That limits the power that the engine can produce. This assumes that you have opened up the exhaust flow by changing the manifold and exhaust to let it out the other side.

"Running lean", connected to lag, is not getting enough fuel at lower revs when you floor it.

Thats what i meant, the car running lean when floored at low revs or the 'lag' as ppl say. As i said before temporary fix is to ever so slightly depress accelerator, rather than flooring it immediately. It works, crude as it is.

Kazi: No it wont. Still not enough fuel from my understanding.

[RX-Men-8]

LOL..thats another way of looking at it, never seen it like that. :D I think why ppl are taking about the injector thing is not that the s/c needs it, its more of nit picking with the issue of s/c 'lag' or it 'running lean' as Mark says.

Not exactly

Power is the rate of conversion of energy, in the case of an engine it is how fast can you turn petrol into exhaust gas and bung it down the pipe.

The "injector thing" is the maximum amount of fuel that the injectors can deliver at high revs when air is being pushed into the engine. That limits the power that the engine can produce. This assumes that you have opened up the exhaust flow by changing the manifold and exhaust to let it out the other side.

"Running lean", connected to lag, is not getting enough fuel at lower revs when you floor it.

Thats what i meant, the car running lean when floored at low revs or the 'lag' as ppl say. As i said before temporary fix is to ever so slightly depress accelerator, rather than flooring it immediately. It works, crude as it is.

Kazi: No it wont. Still not enough fuel from my understanding.

I always thought the "hesitation" when suddenly flooring it under 3000rpm was due to pressure waves between supercharger and throttle body.

Slowly flooring it is indeed the workaround, and mine actually pulls from 1500rpm to the redline without any hiccups (nice metallic sound from the s/c at 2000rpm).

This would indicate there's no problem with the fuel mixture, but that it is merely the crude way the s/c switches from idling through the bypass to making pressure.

Unless your mods to inlet and exhaust are so extreme that it would need more fuel than my setup (mine has a decatted manifold, but standard TTE airbox). But then again at low rpm there shouldn't be a fueling problem, only at high rpm where it actually needs a lot of fuel.

Cheers,

RX-Men-8

[tdiplc]

The misfire/hesitancy on acceleration that some people experience is not "lag", it's a condition brought about by a lean ar/fuel ratio at that point. The air/fuel ratio is just about OK under all other circumstances on an otherwise standard supercharged car.

The a/f ratio is too lean when installing a decent exhaust manifold or any other substantial modification, so needs addressing to eliminate the possibility of engine damage and to enjoy the full benefits of the modification. I believe the best way to accomplish this is to install larger injectors and mappable ecu.

[Gord]

The misfire/hesitancy on acceleration that some people experience is not "lag", it's a condition brought about by a lean ar/fuel ratio at that point. The air/fuel ratio is just about OK under all other circumstances on an otherwise standard supercharged car.

The a/f ratio is too lean when installing a decent exhaust manifold or any other substantial modification, so needs addressing to eliminate the possibility of engine damage and to enjoy the full benefits of the modification. I believe the best way to accomplish this is to install larger injectors and mappable ecu.

Whats any other substantion modifications you are right about the mappable ECU :o with decent manifold :winky:

Note to anybody with induction and manifold kits fitted, you may need mappable ECU, but you dont need larger injectors as your standard ones can do the job.

[tdiplc]

The misfire/hesitancy on acceleration that some people experience is not "lag", it's a condition brought about by a lean ar/fuel ratio at that point. The air/fuel ratio is just about OK under all other circumstances on an otherwise standard supercharged car.

The a/f ratio is too lean when installing a decent exhaust manifold or any other substantial modification, so needs addressing to eliminate the possibility of engine damage and to enjoy the full benefits of the modification. I believe the best way to accomplish this is to install larger injectors and mappable ecu.

Whats any other substantion modifications you are right about the mappable ECU :o with decent manifold :winky:

Note to anybody with induction and manifold kits fitted, you may need mappable ECU, but you dont need larger injectors as your standard ones can do the job.

You'll find that the better the exhaust manifold - the more fuel it will need to produce the power.

If a supercharged is200 has a decent exhaust manifold and intake, it should need larger injectors and mappable ecu (or at the very least adjustable fuel pressure regulator and return line). If you find this is not the case, start looking at the effectiveness of you manifold.

[MacRS200]

I had a problem with hesitation bordering on mis-fire at low rpm on the Tezza. Sitting at a junction and then floor it 3-4 "coughs", lorry up the jacksy, and then off like a rocket.

Problem, running lean, adjusted the mixture a bit richer in the rev range 1 - 2.5k rpm and the problem has gone :D

[Noel]

I had a problem with hesitation bordering on mis-fire at low rpm on the Tezza. Sitting at a junction and then floor it 3-4 "coughs", lorry up the jacksy, and then off like a rocket.

Problem, running lean, adjusted the mixture a bit richer in the rev range 1 - 2.5k rpm and the problem has gone :D

By adjusting you mean....? Camcon?

[MacRS200]

I had a problem with hesitation bordering on mis-fire at low rpm on the Tezza. Sitting at a junction and then floor it 3-4 "coughs", lorry up the jacksy, and then off like a rocket.

Problem, running lean, adjusted the mixture a bit richer in the rev range 1 - 2.5k rpm and the problem has gone :D

By adjusting you mean....? Camcon?

Yup that's what I mean Noel :D

[Noel]

Go on rub it in......

must start saving.....

[Gord]

I had a problem with hesitation bordering on mis-fire at low rpm on the Tezza. Sitting at a junction and then floor it 3-4 "coughs", lorry up the jacksy, and then off like a rocket.

Problem, running lean, adjusted the mixture a bit richer in the rev range 1 - 2.5k rpm and the problem has gone :D

And did you put larger injectors in

[tdiplc]

I had a problem with hesitation bordering on mis-fire at low rpm on the Tezza. Sitting at a junction and then floor it 3-4 "coughs", lorry up the jacksy, and then off like a rocket.

Problem, running lean, adjusted the mixture a bit richer in the rev range 1 - 2.5k rpm and the problem has gone :D

And did you put larger injectors in

Shouldn't be necessary in the Altezza at this level Gord

[MacRS200]

I had a problem with hesitation bordering on mis-fire at low rpm on the Tezza. Sitting at a junction and then floor it 3-4 "coughs", lorry up the jacksy, and then off like a rocket.

Problem, running lean, adjusted the mixture a bit richer in the rev range 1 - 2.5k rpm and the problem has gone :D

And did you put larger injectors in

Gord

Like I said in a previous post above.

The hesitation at lower revs caused by running lean is not connected to the injector capacity, at those revs the standard ones can deliver as much as is needed. But you need an AFC to make them inject more.

The larger injectors come in at high revs where the the engine is demanding as much fuel as possible, if you are boosted to push air in and have modified the exhaust to impove flow then the engine will pass more air through than standard. It is here that the injectors can get maxed out and hence the max power is limited by the max fuel the injectors can deliver.

There is also the possibility of running lean at high revs causing overheating and possible major damage. The only way to tell is to get a lambda boss fitted to the exhaust and to accurately measure the O2 levels with the engine flat out.

I would have thought that the TTE piggy back would be set up for running the TTE airbox and standard exhaust so provided there are no other engine mods there should be no issues.

[Gord]

I had a problem with hesitation bordering on mis-fire at low rpm on the Tezza. Sitting at a junction and then floor it 3-4 "coughs", lorry up the jacksy, and then off like a rocket.

Problem, running lean, adjusted the mixture a bit richer in the rev range 1 - 2.5k rpm and the problem has gone :D

And did you put larger injectors in

Gord

Like I said in a previous post above.

The hesitation at lower revs caused by running lean is not connected to the injector capacity, at those revs the standard ones can deliver as much as is needed. But you need an AFC to make them inject more.

The larger injectors come in at high revs where the the engine is demanding as much fuel as possible, if you are boosted to push air in and have modified the exhaust to impove flow then the engine will pass more air through than standard. It is here that the injectors can get maxed out and hence the max power is limited by the max fuel the injectors can deliver.

There is also the possibility of running lean at high revs causing overheating and possible major damage. The only way to tell is to get a lambda boss fitted to the exhaust and to accurately measure the O2 levels with the engine flat out.

I would have thought that the TTE piggy back would be set up for running the TTE airbox and standard exhaust so provided there are no other engine mods there should be no issues.

Mac mate, i know all this, and you are right in what you say about tte set-up :D

But someone trying to sell lager injectors to people, saying that thay will/could have engine problems if thay dont change them when putting manifild on is just not right, the standard injectors are ok for what 99% of people are doing to there supercharged is200's, when i had supercharger on mine it was working fine, with manifold fitted.

If the standard injectors are just maxing out on the turbo is200,then no way are thay going to be maxed out on the supercharged is200, all it will need is ecu + mapping :)

[tdiplc]

I had a problem with hesitation bordering on mis-fire at low rpm on the Tezza. Sitting at a junction and then floor it 3-4 "coughs", lorry up the jacksy, and then off like a rocket.

Problem, running lean, adjusted the mixture a bit richer in the rev range 1 - 2.5k rpm and the problem has gone :D

And did you put larger injectors in

Gord

Like I said in a previous post above.

The hesitation at lower revs caused by running lean is not connected to the injector capacity, at those revs the standard ones can deliver as much as is needed. But you need an AFC to make them inject more.

The larger injectors come in at high revs where the the engine is demanding as much fuel as possible, if you are boosted to push air in and have modified the exhaust to impove flow then the engine will pass more air through than standard. It is here that the injectors can get maxed out and hence the max power is limited by the max fuel the injectors can deliver.

There is also the possibility of running lean at high revs causing overheating and possible major damage. The only way to tell is to get a lambda boss fitted to the exhaust and to accurately measure the O2 levels with the engine flat out.

I would have thought that the TTE piggy back would be set up for running the TTE airbox and standard exhaust so provided there are no other engine mods there should be no issues.

Mac mate, i know all this, and you are right in what you say about tte set-up :D

But someone trying to sell lager injectors to people, saying that thay will/could have engine problems if thay dont change them when putting manifild on is just not right, the standard injectors are ok for what 99% of people are doing to there supercharged is200's, when i had supercharger on mine it was working fine, with manifold fitted.

If the standard injectors are just maxing out on the turbo is200,then no way are thay going to be maxed out on the supercharged is200, all it will need is ecu + mapping :)

I think you're getting confused mate. If you have an issue over what I say perhaps you ask me for clarification. It has nothing to do with Mac and he doesn't even have an is200 so any comparison is pointless.

My previous answer was clear and correct. From your last statement it seems that you are under the impression that our turbo is200 is fine with the standard injectors. This is true but that car also has additional fuelling considerations (such as adjustable regulator, additional return line, FCON ecu etc) to suppliment the fuel requirements because larger injectors were not available years ago when we did that car.

A better way of achieving a similar but substantially better result is to use larger injectors and mappable ecu.

I don't know what manifold you were using, but it could be one of the poorer designs which doesn't need any more fuel because it doesn't produce much more power.

Unsurprisingly we have done a lot of testing on the is200 so we do know a fair bit about them. I can tell you as a matter of fact that contrary to your statement that we are "someone trying to sell lager injectors to people", all we are doing is offering a gateway for substantial performance increases and greater reliability to the people that need or want it.

Please let me know if you need any further clarification :)

Also, you will be welcome to "sit in" for a while on one of testing sessions with our dyno man so that you can see for yourself what we do and how we do it, then I'd be happy to have a face to face discussion with you if you still don't agree that we do know what we're doing.

[MacRS200]

It has nothing to do with Mac and he doesn't even have an is200 so any comparison is pointless.

Your are quite right Mark it has nothing to do with me and actually I do have an IS200 Sport as well as the Tezza.

Anyway the point in my posting is that the hesitation problem that I was suffering from was due to a lean mixture at lower revs, probably due to the manifold. Think there is a valid comparison with the same symptom with the S/C.

Both could be overcome by being gentle with the throttle similar to a carb engine, indication lean mixture.

Anyway I will butt out now and leave you to argue it out with Gord :D

[tdiplc]

It has nothing to do with Mac and he doesn't even have an is200 so any comparison is pointless.

Your are quite right Mark it has nothing to do with me and actually I do have an IS200 Sport as well as the Tezza.

Anyway the point in my posting is that the hesitation problem that I was suffering from was due to a lean mixture at lower revs, probably due to the manifold. Think there is a valid comparison with the same symptom with the S/C.

Both could be overcome by being gentle with the throttle similar to a carb engine, indication lean mixture.

Anyway I will butt out now and leave you to argue it out with Gord :D

You're absolutely right Mac, thanks :).

[Gord]

Not getting confused Mark at all :D

We shall see that injectors are needed or not :o

Was not referring to your turbo at all.

You really really dont want me to post, what i know about your turbo conversion :winky: