Clarkson Hates Rx400h

[Lexusjohn]

but at what cost ?? All the extra money spend to get electric motors / batteries added could more than compensate for extra fuel used by a pertrol engine...

Unless you treat it as a performance upgrade..and then back to why not just go for petrol ?

And finally...allll that weight, diesel and electric...wow.. bet it would be crap in corners..

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The new diesel engines are much lighter than the old ones, and much more powerfull.

For instance the diesel 3.0TDI I have way outperforms the new GS300 of the same capacity, so weight is not an issue, Talking hibred/petrol/electric, whilst driving on motorway/duelcarrageways, the advantages are with the diesel in terms of economy with performance, debatable subject this is it not :)

[fergy]

yip... I agree definitely a debatable subject.

I can see definite plus points to diesels, I looked and test drove a BMW 535d before getting the RX (put off by price to spec car the way it should be) and it reallllly shifted. Diesel engines are still heavier than petrol counterparts and have more complexity now (intercoolers, turbos) which will affect handling and tends to make them nose heavy when chucking them through corners.

Definite plus point to hybrids also, possibly a good compormise ? Time will tell.

... but lets not forget straight petrol cars... still sound the best by miles !

Nice that we have sooo mucg choice these days, afterall what suits one person will not suit everyone.

[Lexusjohn]

yip... I agree definitely a debatable subject.

I can see definite plus points to diesels, I looked and test drove a BMW 535d before getting the RX (put off by price to spec car the way it should be) and it reallllly shifted. Diesel engines are still heavier than petrol counterparts and have more complexity now (intercoolers, turbos) which will affect handling and tends to make them nose heavy when chucking them through corners.

Definite plus point to hybrids also, possibly a good compormise ? Time will tell.

... but lets not forget straight petrol cars... still sound the best by miles !

Nice that we have sooo mucg choice these days, afterall what suits one person will not suit everyone.

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Fergy I can apriciate petrol engines sound quieter generaly, not all diesels are noisey, Its the torque,the actual push in the back drivability that you experienced with the 535d that you liked, My audi has that and a little more without the nuts/bolts noises that the BM makes, I drove the 535d and found the engine note noisey and harsh around town and like yourself found that specing it up costs the earth, I wonder what car engines we will be driving in say 2010?? best regards J

[DieterML]

but at what cost ?? All the extra money spend to get electric motors / batteries added could more than compensate for extra fuel used by a pertrol engine...

Unless you treat it as a performance upgrade..and then back to why not just go for petrol ?

And finally...allll that weight, diesel and electric...wow.. bet it would be crap in corners..

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Hi Fergy,

We are at the beginning of a hybrid phase. Currently batteries/electric motors etc. add so much to price of car the reasons for choosing them are either increased power or reduced emissions.e. it's not about saving money :winky: .

What is as important however is that given current fuel crisis all car manufacturers are thinking hybrid. This increased competition should result in cheaper hybrid systems (including diesel) Current MB systems use a single electric motor which is directly on the transmission (i.e. unlike 400h it works with auto g/box and maintains full-time 4wd function etc.).

Intrinsically weight isn't a problem (except you have to overcome it to move i.e. inertia). They don't stick the batteries under the bonnet. :winky: The extra weight is distributed near(er) centre of gravity and if under floor etc. will even lower centre of gravity etc.

As for the future well it appears that much more efficient ways of storing hydrogen (in 'solid' sponges etc.) are being developed. Just need to find 'efficient' methods to extract hydrogen from water i.e. no point using current fossil fuel burning power stations to electrolyse water etc.

So by 2020 we'll all be driving fuel cell cars like this: :D

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2051012.003

Cheers,

Dieter

[spwolfx]

Hi,

So the way to go is Diesel hybrid  i.e. start off with better fuel economy (than petrol) and improve it.  Unfortunately this area is not Toyota's/Japanese makers strength and new systems such as MB 'BlueTec' system will come to fore.

"BLUETEC is a new exhaust gas purification technology that reduces nitrogen oxide (NOX) by about 80 per cent through selective catalytic reduction (SCR). Mercedes engineers developed a special piezo injection valve and a fuel system with a high pressure of 200 bar. The stability of the injection spray - one of the critical aspects of the process - is ensured by a special injection nozzle that opens to the outside and is activated at ultra-high speeds by a piezo crystal. This technology makes the "BLUETEC HYBRID" the cleanest diesel in the world, with the best natural fuel economy available".

It's good to see such healthy competition to reduce fuel consumption especially as power increases may also be gained (win/win situation).

Cheers,

Dieter

(More fuel efficient :winky:  ML CDi 320 on order  :tsktsk: )

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um, I understand you love MB which is why you go around telling people how great it is, but you clearly do not know everything that you like to talk about.

1. Toyota currently has the cleanest diesel in the world - it is also the most powerful 4cly diesel - Clean Power 180.

2. MB has no hybrids on sale. Their knowledge of hybrid technology is very limited. Every few years they make press releases about how they have these "hybrids" planned only few years ahead. They certainly dont sell one and their system is certainly not "best", since it does not exist in production enviroment.

3. Toyota already sells Hybrid diesels around the world in Trucks and Vans. It has been selling them for more than a year now. Technology is already here.

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I think Clarkson's review is VERY positive for RX400h. Why? Because when you take out his uninformed points, we get one very positive review.

For example:

- maintenance on 3 engines... well, there is 0 maintainance on hybrid components. In fact, petrol engine lasts longer, has some 4 belts less to replace and brakes might get spent up to 80% less in hybrid.

- consumption - 29mpg is bad when X5 V8 gets what? 18? Then he compares it to 170hp diesel from XC90....eh? Comparing Ferrari to GTI?

Dont get me wrong, I like diesels as well, but for European, hybrid makes gazillion times more sense than diesels because most people live in cities. It doesnt have to be an big city either. I was very suprised to find my prius gets only 4.5-5.0l on average when comparable Avensis 116hp diesel got 7.2l-7.4l over the same routes.

Once MB gets hybrid ML out, I am sure Dieter will change his mind about that ML320CDI :-).

[Lexusjohn]

"I was very suprised to find my prius gets only 4.5-5.0l on average when comparable Avensis 116hp diesel got 7.2l-7.4l over the same routes."

Good post xpwolfx, but this is a bit of a "trip-up" is it not?

[sos10]

Diesel Hybrid on normal cars is not a good idea (according to Toyota) for several reasons:

-The advantage of a diesel over petrol cars is exactly there where the electric motor takes over; low speeds, stop/go etc.

You would gain very little from using a diesel hybrid on a car, Trucks are a diffierent story.

-Another problem is the transition from electric to diesel. When the petrol motor of a Prius or 400h kicks in you barely notice it.. doing so with a diesel is way more complicated.

[sos10]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...Flanguage_tools

have a look here

[Lexusjohn]

SOS10, zery interesting zery interesting indeed ;)

didn't think about start-up consequence in repeated re-starts, after cold start the next start should be quieter!

[lexus boy]

Hi,

So the way to go is Diesel hybrid  i.e. start off with better fuel economy (than petrol) and improve it.  Unfortunately this area is not Toyota's/Japanese makers strength and new systems such as MB 'BlueTec' system will come to fore.

"BLUETEC is a new exhaust gas purification technology that reduces nitrogen oxide (NOX) by about 80 per cent through selective catalytic reduction (SCR). Mercedes engineers developed a special piezo injection valve and a fuel system with a high pressure of 200 bar. The stability of the injection spray - one of the critical aspects of the process - is ensured by a special injection nozzle that opens to the outside and is activated at ultra-high speeds by a piezo crystal. This technology makes the "BLUETEC HYBRID" the cleanest diesel in the world, with the best natural fuel economy available".

It's good to see such healthy competition to reduce fuel consumption especially as power increases may also be gained (win/win situation).

Cheers,

Dieter

(More fuel efficient :winky:  ML CDi 320 on order  :tsktsk: )

←

um, I understand you love MB which is why you go around telling people how great it is, but you clearly do not know everything that you like to talk about.

1. Toyota currently has the cleanest diesel in the world - it is also the most powerful 4cly diesel - Clean Power 180.

2. MB has no hybrids on sale. Their knowledge of hybrid technology is very limited. Every few years they make press releases about how they have these "hybrids" planned only few years ahead. They certainly dont sell one and their system is certainly not "best", since it does not exist in production enviroment.

3. Toyota already sells Hybrid diesels around the world in Trucks and Vans. It has been selling them for more than a year now. Technology is already here.

-------

I think Clarkson's review is VERY positive for RX400h. Why? Because when you take out his uninformed points, we get one very positive review.

For example:

- maintenance on 3 engines... well, there is 0 maintainance on hybrid components. In fact, petrol engine lasts longer, has some 4 belts less to replace and brakes might get spent up to 80% less in hybrid.

- consumption - 29mpg is bad when X5 V8 gets what? 18? Then he compares it to 170hp diesel from XC90....eh? Comparing Ferrari to GTI?

Dont get me wrong, I like diesels as well, but for European, hybrid makes gazillion times more sense than diesels because most people live in cities. It doesnt have to be an big city either. I was very suprised to find my prius gets only 4.5-5.0l on average when comparable Avensis 116hp diesel got 7.2l-7.4l over the same routes.

Once MB gets hybrid ML out, I am sure Dieter will change his mind about that ML320CDI :-).

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Mb do have them on sale. fact is they not gonna hit the market till they perfect their hydrogen car. Of which they are the best R and D so far.

[Petrol_Head]

Diesels do not work as well with electric as petrols do and Toyota and Lexus are keen to stress this point. Around town speeds the most efficient hybirds rely purely on the electric motors and turn off the petrol motors. When more speed or power is needed the pertol engine kicks in (above 30mph I think in the RX400h). Now this is not a problem with a refined petrol, but with a diesel? I do not think so. My mothers diesel is one of the most recent and advanced (audi 3.0), but the thought of that starting midway through acceleration would probably fling the car off the road.

Diesels are still poor on start up and therefor make poor hybrid powertrains. Mercedes claim that they will use the diesel motor most of the time and use electrics as a back up boost (much like the American version Honda Accord Hybrid which uses a petrol v6 with the boost of an electric motor). This more simplistic approach is less efficient and the technology is still not on the market.

[DieterML]

Hi,

SpwolfX Are you suggesting then that Lexus release the RX180D :yack: . It may will be pretty fuel efficient but you may have to push it up hills :D . After all this is the RX300/400h section.

I don't believe I'm telling everyone how great MB is :winky: ? I'm just pointing out that there's ever increasing competition (for hybrid technology) and I believe my posts have been (reasonably) objective :winky: .

As to why I chose an MB. I was interested in 400h but ultimately, as I don't do too much urban driving (and I commute to London) it's no better (for me) than a diesel. I also think MB has turned the corner on its quality issues and overall the ML remained more suited to my needs :D . (v XC90/X5 etc. etc.)

In a straight test WhatCar placed RX400h 5th out of 6th luxury 4 x 4's (although the margin between first and fifth was small). I've grown out of torque steer and prefer full-time 4wd and a 'gear box' etc. So it's not only Clarkson who doesn't like them (jiggly low speed ride, numb steering etc.) .

For info on diesel hybrids click here:

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,66949,00.html

If/when MB get hybrid ML it's (probably) going to be a diesel hybrid but like the RX300 v RX400h story if it's £4K dearer I'll stick with 'wot I got'/getting :D

As usual enjoy your cars, whatever you drive (cos it's your choice) and don't get too paranoid if someone has a different perspective/preference etc.

Wouldn't it be boring if only died in the wool 'Lexus lovers' posted :D

Cheers,

Dieter

[spwolfx]

nope, I am saying that MB does not have any mass production hybrids on sale. I am not aware that they have any kind of hybrid on sale (maybe some prototype in Trucks or Busses?).

While it is all nice that they have PR machine that is happy to claim their "technology" the best, it is just an PR until they start selling them... which is long way ahead.

Obviously, you are free to choose whatever you like and I am sure ML320CDI is splendid machine, it is just that MB has NO hybrids and even the ones they presented in S class had smaller electric engine than Prius. Hopefully they will not sell that one in 2008.

Europeans are very protective about diesels and most journalists are anti-hybrid. Maybe they are simply not used to the technology as Americans are?

I do honestly believe that hybrids are more suited for Europe than US, so situation should be vice versa!

For European market, having 4cly petrol hybrid in RX400h would be perfect actually. RX would still be as fast as 320CDI but would spend some 20% less fuel. Maybe then the European journalists would get the point? :-). Unfortunatly, market in Europe is a bit small for this kind of vehicle, so maybe we shall get Rav4 eventually with something similar....

As to the people that buy V8 not caring about consumption, I really dont believe that is true. I really dont mind when my turbo mr-s spends 11l/100kmh but at the same time it is nice feeling when I see my Prius at 4.4l/100kmh, going almost as fast.

Since Toyota is the first company with production hybrid-diesel, I am pretty sure they will be first company to have it in Europe, if it makes sense financially. In modern hybrid diesel engine, you have so many more points of failure that I really dont see it financially viable to have FULL hybrid anytime soon.

As to the driving, Hybrid powertrain is well matched to diesel - it eliminates turbo hole which is fairly big turbo diesel problem plus reduces emissions when reduction is needed the most. For example, Prius might function well with 1.4D4D 90hp engine found in Corolla and wouldnt be that much more expensive either.

[Bartierx300]

:P Hi Peeps, when i enquired about the the RX400H my dealer suggested that the amount of miles i do a year it would not be worth me buying one as i would never get my money back, although i think the technolegy is fantanstic and it does seem the way forward. One thing i would like to add is why Dieter is commenting on a Lexus site, surely he should be passing his comments on the M.B site, or is he a secret Lexus admirer who bought the wrong car! over to you Dietmer.

[DieterML]

: One thing i would like to add is why Dieter is commenting on a Lexus site, surely he should be passing his comments on the M.B  site, or is he a secret Lexus admirer who bought the wrong car! over to you Dietmer.

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Hi Bart,

I was considering 400h so subscribed to this forum :D . I agree that the technology is great :) but for the UK it's not a significant advance over diesel (especially 3rd generation etc. :winky: ). Next year ULS Diesel will become widely available in USA so it will be interersting to see diesel take up then

I have now made my decision and have ordered ML, frankly cos, IMHO, it's a better car for my driving requirements etc. :D .

I felt that my continued posting on this site brought another point of view to the debate(s) . You obviously feel somehow 'threatened' by these posts so if the concensus is that I shouldn't post anymore that's fine by me :D . Frankly my postings are not car specific and I've never 'knocked' Lexus :yack: . Also you have a 'warn' index and my current score is 0% :D .

Now if I said that Lexus had no history and that they're just jumped up Toyota's then perhaps my 'score' would have been higher, it certainly couldn't have been lower?

Cheers,

Dieter

ML 320CDi coming soon :D

[aido]

Didn't realise the US were getting diesel, will be interesting to see how they take to that!

Will be interesting to see how it compares to the European stuff seeing as their petrol differs to ours!

[Lexusjohn]

DieterML, I will keep posting and I have a new A8 (sold GS300SE) so you do the same, your posts are interesting and give another informed angle/prospective to the next generation of transport for us private "transporteees" :D