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Which Intercooler ?


DALE69V
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Ditto above - the SMIC is more than enough really unless you are planning to go to really high levels like a couple of the guys here are - might be worth looking at the Chris Wilson uprated SMIC for the Supra - think it's the same as the Aristo one so it's a straight swap - not 100% sure though.

You can find him over at www.mkivsupra.net

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That's a bugger :(

Got one from a MK2 Aristo here, all it says is:

Toyota

46080

D 127000-0230

Was hoping it would have been the same as I'd been thinking of getting one of Chris's :(

Dave Ellen and Paul Reece both have FMIC's on their Aristo's, think they're Greddy ones, they're both very nice :)

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Paul, what's the difference between the two specs?

OK, just found this link which explains a bit:

http://www.jdm-option.com/eng/parts/06_06/trust.html

Just had a look and here's some quick info and Japanese prices I've gotten off the GReddy website:

Spec-R - 2 Layer - 135,000 YEN

Spec-R - 3 Layer - 198,000 YEN

Spec-V - 2 Layer - 99,000 YEN

Spec-M - 2 Layer - 59,000 YEN

You need to relocate the power steering cooler for all of those from what it says on there :)

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Whoever up above is saying a FMIC at BPU will only give lag doesn't know anything with regards to basic physics, turbochargers, etc - no offence ... please do NOT spread misinformation :).

1) We have sequential turbochargers, where lag is virtually non-existant.

2) Also in testing a decently sized intercooler for a particular application ALWAYS shows a good DECREASE in lag and more power and more resistance to heat soak compared to a SMIC.

Has anybody compared how long the piping for the stock SMIC is and how long the piping for a FMIC is? Piping diameter, length, etc plays a larger role than just having a FMIC. The more volume of air that needs to be filled up, the longer the "lag" would be as it would take "longer" for the air to be pressurised and this happens in the pipes and the FMIC.

Also a intercooler functions more like a heatsink, the larger and more exposed to ambient air the better it will function...but there is a point of diminishing returns - hence having to size up a FMIC to your application.

The SMIC always gets heatsoaked after sitting idle for about 5-10 minutes, especially since ours are located behind the front fogs and has little "opening" for cool ambient air to pass over it.

Heatsoaking results in loss of power, as the air the turbo's are pushing is hotter and in turn that makes the ECU pull timing to avoid detonation. What we need to make power is boost AND timing.

A FMIC is a good investment, even if you are BPU or even stock as it will take a LONGER time for it to get heatsoaked, will provide a similar length of piping (more often than not shorter piping) than the SMIC resulting in high efficiency, lower lag and a nice increase in sustainable power output.

Just remember one thing, a FMIC has to be decently sized for your application and/or future goals. Otherwise you may end up with a FMIC that is too big for your application, which will in turn result in diminishing returns and sometimes even give you negative effects.

The stock SMIC is well designed, the uprated SMIC linked to above is a good upgrade to replace the stock one, but I would prefer a FMIC due to the above reasons.

Hope that helps people now and in future :). For more information read: http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html

OT: If you want a nice FMIC that will work wonders (proven to 1000bhp levels), let me know...I'll point you in the right direction.

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Whoever up above is saying a FMIC at BPU will only give lag doesn't know anything with regards to basic physics, turbochargers, etc - no offence ... please do NOT spread misinformation :).

I wouldn't have bothered replying, but seeing as it's dead around here, might aswell help with the post count

1) We have sequential turbochargers, where lag is virtually non-existant.

Can you tell me how to drive off boost, as in one of your other posts in a different thread??

. The more volume of air that needs to be filled up, the longer the "lag" would be as it would take "longer" for the air to be pressurised and this happens in the pipes and the FMIC.

Exactly, i should have explained a little more, but sometimes a short answer will do. People associate FMIC's as huge great things they've seen on TV, these although will cool the air better, will give you no driving gains due to the lag at stock/bpu

The stock SMIC is well designed, the uprated SMIC linked to above is a good upgrade to replace the stock one, but I would prefer a FMIC due to the above reasons.

Shame it won't fit.

OT: If you want a nice FMIC that will work wonders (proven to 1000bhp levels), let me know...I'll point you in the right direction.

But laggy at BPU levels, as you said yourself it needs to be matched to an specific application.

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I wouldn't have bothered replying, but seeing as it's dead around here, might aswell help with the post count

Post count doesn't help whatsoever :P Sorry if I came across a bit aggressive, just had a bad day.

Can you tell me how to drive off boost, as in one of your other posts in a different thread??

When you're not pounding on the throttle all the way, and just accelerate softly, even moderately, the turbochargers are creating little to no boost. This is called driving off boost. As I understand it the car sit at about 2,500-3,000rpm at motorway speeds (last I checked anyway, could be a tad off), and at those speeds as long as you feather the throttle, you will not be making much boost, if any. Hope that makes sense.

Exactly, i should have explained a little more, but sometimes a short answer will do. People associate FMIC's as huge great things they've seen on TV, these although will cool the air better, will give you no driving gains due to the lag at stock/bpu

You seemed to miss my point about the stock SMIC having a longer pipe length than an aftermarket FMIC. The shorter length of piping, along with a large FMIC even, would be almost same as, if not slightly longer, than the stock intercooler piping/smic length. In turn negating the effects of a "large" FMIC.

Shame it won't fit.

Yeah, I failed to notice that - thanks for pointing it out :).

But laggy at BPU levels, as you said yourself it needs to be matched to an specific application.

These 1000whp FMIC's are used on BPU cars...making anywhere between 300-400ish rwhp and have the cooling capacity for 1000rwhp setups as well. Proven on both a 61mm sized turbo and a GT4088 turbo. IMHO Lag is overrated.

Now if you're going to go and stick in a humungous GReddy 4 row (which will not fit on our cars) on a stock TT setup, with no increase in boost, etc then you will DEFINITELY have LAG. As that is a monstrous intercooler. Another person who will give you nothing but positives on having a FMIC on a BPU car is Yoshi. IIRC he has a Arc FMIC which is good to about 900+rwhp but is being used on a BPU car with a TOMS TECS ECU :).

Also as I said, we have a sequential turbo system, where lag will only be ever so slightly evident when taking off from a standstill, otherwise lag will be non-existant. If that lag bothers you so much at taking off from a standstill, then you go and have your torque convertor restalled and you'll get more power to the ground when taking off. Also I'd prefer cooler air going into the engine with about a half a second of lag? If that?, with maximum timing ... rather than timing being retarded, more fuel being dumped in due to higher intake temps and less power :).

As mentioned above, a FMIC is a heatsink. The more surface area you have the longer it will take to heatsoak it. Hence a properly sized FMIC will do only good things for power, lag, etc.

Anymore questions just ask :).

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The overall length of the pipework is not a major factor. What is a primary consideration is the airflow efficiency of the pipe work and the intercooler core. People often get confused over this issue and think that it is the pipe length that creates the feel of "lag", when it is more to do with incrorrect pipe sizes, inconsiderate bend radii, and more more importantly the flow restriction of the core itself.

The majority of the intercoolers available on the market are actually quite poor, and of course the plethora of useless intercoolers from China that are currently flooding the UK and US doesn't help.

Hope this helps a little :)

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I have the V-Spec Greddy on my Aristo and am well pleased with it.

Car will now easily hit the (now removed) 155 mph speed limiter (In Germany of course)

When dyno'd it was running 1.4 bar (1.2 pre fitment) so it must be doing something good :D

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If I'm not mistaken, I don't know of anybody, who does not have mandrel bent pipes in their IC kit?

Also, just curious, is there any testing, proof, etc on these cheap chinese FMIC's being useless? As I seem to recall quite a few people I've known who are using them with no issues with high boost, with high power, with the forced air not cooled adequately, etc :). There's one person, who's switched over a from a GReddy 3 row on an old Supra build, onto one of these cheap FMIC's from China on his 2nd Supra (same dimensions, bar & plate), yet he isn't complaining - he's a DIY guy too.

If you could shed some light on this it would be much appreciated.

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Also, i think Janspeed had bent intercooler piping(not the same as TTE) on there s/c car and was pushing 225+bhp

Ive been looking on other site's to see what people are saying about these intercoolers to, some are getting very good press :o

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Unfortunately the internet is full of people who love to give lectures, and 'prove' their knowledge.

How about taking a bit more time, and answering the OP's original question??

To answer the question fully, there needs to be more info from the OP.

Anyway, I'm being watched, so better behave :D

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Ahhhh___Aristo: I hope those comments weren't pointed towards me ... if so, giving a lecture as you so kindly put it, is better than the misinformation you posted up :).

Also the original posters question has been answered, mostly by myself and tdiplc, with a bit of correcting on my post.

Although I do hope the OP will chime in and post up what they're goals, etc are.

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misinformation, how so exactly?? You jump in a suggest FMIC without knowing anything about the OP's car??

What about the FMIC blocking the rad?? why did Chris Wilson spend time and money R&D'ing a SMIC when there's so many cheap FMIC's on the market?? Why did Toyota fit a SMIC on the Aristo and MK4Supra?? when they'd previously fitted a FMIC on a MK3 supra?? (actually scrap that as it's a crap point :) )

Looking through your old posts you once said (which is spot on advice)

"Also with the stock SMIC you can actually "enhance" it's efficiency by doing ALOT of ducting and clever little tricks to get more ambient air to it, as far as I know this is good till about 400whp after which a FMIC would help out ALOT!"

So your views have changed then.

Misinformation, bless.

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Although I do hope the OP will chime in and post up what they're goals, etc are.

Hi all

Sorry to cause so much heated debate

My goal is to be running between 400 and 500 RWHP eventually

but as i am looking for the said HP i am also trying to decide on having LPG and how it will effect the possibilitys of reaching my goal (hope i dont start another heated debate :unsure: )

Dale

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No worries, a heated debate is always a laugh at the end of the day, unless anyone takes them seriously.

Don't think there's a LPG system capable of running those sort of bhp figures at the moment.

Hope you've got big pockets :D

And for those sort of figures, a FMIC will be recommended

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No worries, a heated debate is always a laugh at the end of the day, unless anyone takes them seriously.

Don't think there's a LPG system capable of running those sort of bhp figures at the moment.

Hope you've got big pockets :D

And for those sort of figures, a FMIC will be recommended

Yeh i think i will have to see if i can run LPG on a stock boost setting and then disable the LPG and wind up the boost for the power

And I have very big pockets but my arms are not long enough to reach the bottom of them :D

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misinformation, how so exactly?? You jump in a suggest FMIC without knowing anything about the OP's car??

Misinformation being a BPU car does not require a FMIC :). I didn't suggest a FMIC for the car, only said I know of a few FMIC's which could possibly help him, if he was interested :).

What about the FMIC blocking the rad?? why did Chris Wilson spend time and money R&D'ing a SMIC when there's so many cheap FMIC's on the market?? Why did Toyota fit a SMIC on the Aristo and MK4Supra?? when they'd previously fitted a FMIC on a MK3 supra?? (actually scrap that as it's a crap point :) )

Blocking the rad? Do you track your car? Does Dale track his car? I very much doubt it as that's where you will notice a HUGE cooling problem with regards to having a FMIC in front of the car. Another thing being, our cars actually have a GRILLE which assists in cooling under bonnet temperature, up to an extent, where the Supra only has two side ducts (one for SMIC) and a huge front duct just helping to cool the radiator.

OH another reason I pointed out Yoshi, is because he actually tracks his car AND he has a FMIC and as far as I know he has not had any problems with the car overheating. Again, please do research on Bar & Plate and Tube & Fin FMIC's, as one let's air through with less resistance and the other doesn't. I'll let you find out and tell me which one that is ;).

Oh as for the FMIC comment, the same can be said with regards to...why did Toyota choose to go twin sequential when a small single could've done the job? If everything Toyota did with the car (when in stock form) is PERFECT, why increase boost? why go BPU? why go single? (answer is more power :)).

Looking through your old posts you once said (which is spot on advice)

"Also with the stock SMIC you can actually "enhance" it's efficiency by doing ALOT of ducting and clever little tricks to get more ambient air to it, as far as I know this is good till about 400whp after which a FMIC would help out ALOT!"

So your views have changed then.

Misinformation, bless.

If learning and changing your opinion on something is called misinformation, then I guess everybody was misinformed since they were a school kid ;)

The SMIC is good, but not THAT good. Those suggestions were made, before I realised how bent up my own FMIC fins are from debris, etc. Let's see if you know what bent fins cause IC's to do less of and cause more of? (less cooling and more resistance).

Also heated discussions are a laugh yeah I agree - nothing personal towards you Ahhhh_Aristo :). So who do you want to be in this heated debate? Mark or Dave? :P

Dale: If you're looking at alternative fuels, I'd suggest waiting out to see how E85 reacts with us over here. If it does as it has in the US, then it's basically a higher octane fuel (similar to 99 ron petrol mixed with methanol injection) although provides a lower MPG figure but cheaper (supposedly). It's the same thing used on the new Saab that was launched with the first couple of E85 pumps in the UK? Anybody have any opinions on this?

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