ganzoom

Mazda 6 vs Tesla Model X Mazda 6 was £13k new in 2009, worth about £1500 now. However its only done 45k miles in its life at 30mpg, so £8800 in fuel, £220/VED × 13 years. So £23k total ownership costs excluding servicing = 52p per mile. 75D Model X, £71k new in 2017, worth about £50k now. Done 65k miles, average cost of electricity is 3p per mile = £1950 in fuel. £0 VED. So £23k total ownership cost excluding servicing = 32p per mile. So the total ownership cost per mile to run our Mazda 6 is considerably MORE than our Tesla..... So there you have it the cost of owing a 'shed' versus something as that is frankly as ridiculous unnecessary as a hotel with a plane jetty, in black and white, the numbers simply don't lie :).

Applying man maths to cars is a skill I have honed well, for example the combined cost of our cars may be £105k but actually we have owned one for 7 years the other 5 years. If sold now to WBAC both together would give us back £65k, so the actual cost of owing the cars is £40k. Per year of ownership therefore is coming out as £3,300. Per month that's £277 between us, so for each of us to own a car each = £138/month. Some people spend that much on Sky each month!! So actuallt the total ownership costs of our cars so far is almost a 'bargain'. So we gone from a crazy 6 figure sum spend on cars to a cost that is barely more than what you can waste on a TV package :). It takes years of practice to get to this level of car man maths, I need to do the same with pedal bikes!!!

I probably spent 1hr+ on the road today when out gallivanting on the bike, I must have been passed by hundreds of cars. Not a single driver (even white van man), displayed any aggression or impatience some people on here seem to have for cyclists. Infact in over 2 decades of using my pedal bike on the roads I've only been hit by inattentive drivers twice, both times at relative low speeds, I've been hit more often by other drivers when in my car! 99.99% of car drivers luckily treat cyclists with alot of space/care. As for cost of bikes, now that am 'at peace' with car ownership, am going turn all my best man maths skills to bikes. I've never been able to 'treat' my self to my 'dream' bike like I have done with cars, but I think its about time given my now very clear ambivalence to cars....... My current 10 years old road bike is a trusty Trek Madone from the Armstrong eria, the nature replacement given my older age would some like the newly updated Domane eBike. The price isn't a typo, it's expensive but compared to our cars it's actually pretty cheap. I fear for my bank account, its going to be when not if, this thing ends up in the garage. For me any ways something like this is far more exciting than any potential car purchase!

Humm really, do you want to guess how much my bikes are worth. I give you some clues, one was off gumtree, one is over 10 years old, and my commuter bike is from Halfords :).

I consider the Tesla to be the family 'hack', it gets washed once in 6 months, and literally everything gets throw in it. Somepeople here seem to get hung up on stuff and cost? I buy what I enjoy/want, and not what other people think. But this thread has made me realise what right now I enjoy most interms of transportation.....and actually this is the most 'fun' thing in the garage. It's makes a Brompton look 'normal' and the OP would be glad to hear I only use it on cycle paths as its too slow for the real roads :).

Actually everything you are complaining about and the 'rationale' behind those complaints is exactly what the article described, essentially its human psychology which cannot be changed. I actually took the chance to go on a 2hr ride to run some errands instead of using the car....what was really interesting was when I got home and saw the cars parked up (The Lexus + Tesla cost us in total £105K post tax pay to buy), I realised actually its the pedal bikes I own which gives me so much more enjoyment on the roads, getting from A to B. So actually I take back what I said about not been anti-car fanatic, I may not be anti-car, but I certainly don't find cars that relevant any more in-terms of bringing enjoyment. Given the choice, I would take any of the pedal bikes I own for a trip versus the cars.

This article sums up well these threads:) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists I'm clearly in the minority but I simply cannot understand why anyone would choose a car to do an urban commute versus the bike. I get to work QUICKER on my bike than the car, no worries about parKing, virtually no fuel costs, and it's a cardio work out (so no need to go to the gym). I'm about to head off to swimming with my daughter (730am start!). I'll cover more miles in the next hr in the car than a whole week on commuting on the bike, so am no anti car fanatic. However for the weekday city commute, why do most people refuse to consider using anything else but their cars?? I just don't get it??

You might be amazed to find most cyclist own cars and drive them!! This is my cycling mileage at present, roughly 200 miles every 4 weeks pretty much 100% commuting. This is how far I drove in just one Friday evening. I currently do about 1200 miles every 4 weeks in the car, so 6 times the mileage compared to my bike. As others have said I see bad driving and cycling every where all the time. The 'them versus us' attitude some people like to portray is just mad, we are all road user, all trying to get from A to B using what ever mode of transport is most appropriate for the trip, and it really is as simple as that.

Our average stop for a charge on the Mways is probably around that figure. 10 minutes is enough to take most EVs from 10% SOC to 40-50%, so about 50 miles+ of range. For us that usually enough to complete the trip with no issues, and acutally the difference in range between a big battery versus small battery car which is around £3-5k depending on make......For most of us, 10 minutes extra time for splash and dash isn't worth any where near £3-5k. When we have stopped for longer during lunch etc, I've always had to come out and move the car so others car use the charger. Essentially the car is ready to go before we are! If you live in the US I think there is a different need, as just going from San Francisco to San Diego is 550miles and for many that's a weekend out, and LA to NewYork is 2800 miles. Where as London to Edinburgh is barely over 400 miles, and many would choose to fly versus drive that distance in the UK.

When was the last time you actually filled up at a Mway service station? I can count on one hand the number of time I used a Mway service for fuel in 17 years of driving combustion cars, and my last combustion car had a real world range of around 250 miles from a full tank. The reason hardly anyone uses Mway services for fuel is cost, why would you pay 10-15% more for fuel when most of the time you can do the trip in one go and only fill up off the Mway (In the UK at least). EV Rapid charging is already following a similar setup. Mway rapid chargers now cost 50p+/kWh, so 'fill up' a RZE would cost you £35. The same amount of electricity at home will cost you 7-20p/kWh, so at least 50% cheaper. So why would you fill up at a Mway service station unless you had to, and even with 150-200 mile range in the UK there isn't much need to. Interestingly though the latest Mway DC rapid charging sites are getting x20 high power (350KW) chargers. So actually getting close the equivalent of having x10 petrol pumps at a forecourt. There is nothing stopping you from getting an EV with more range, the Mercedes EQS has a 110kWh pack battery, the Rivians 130kWh pack, but they all cost £100k+ and unless you are going to use all that capacity/range daily its just a waste of resources and money.

It's the opposite reason. AP on the Tesla HAS to turn the wheel when engaged, therefore it's always intrusive to the passengers regardless of how good the autmonouns software gets. Been able to 100% disconnect the steering wheel is the future, short of removing it completely it's the next step. This is actually something really innovative from Lexus, and Tesla will need to copy it at some point.

So you got annoyed at another road user who didn't get stuck in traffic? The red light thing is bad, but one of the main reasons I commute to work on my pedal bike is because it's QUICKER. Even motorbikes gets stuck in the school run traffic. Instead of getting jealous, why not try it? eBikes are fab for urban travel, so much more efficiency and effective than any car.

You do realise both of those things still exist :).

The obsession with range in EVs is pretty illogical though, there aren't many people who's time is so precious they cannot justify stopping for 20-30 minutes on a 3-4hr+ drive. It's looking like I can pay Tesla £10kish to 'upgrade' the battery in our car to go from 60kWh (after 8 years of degredation) to 90kWh+. So roughly speaking an extra 90 miles of real world range.......But acutally is 90 miles of worth even £5k extra let alone £10k. Unless I use that range everyday it one really expensive comfort blanket. Nissan probably got it right with the original Leaf and its range as a commuter car. However you are right we humans aren't very logical, so even though 90 miles extra range does nothing practical for our car usage when the time comes I'll probably still pay the £10k for a new battery :).

But for the UK that's more than enough, in school holiday times 150 miles of driving = 5-6hrs stuck in stationary traffic on the M5 🙂 Our 75D X has roughly 180 miles range in winter, I've done 60k+ miles in it now with no range worries including taking it to Scotland in sub zero temps, and this summer taking it to Norway. What's really interesting about EVs is manufacture support for longterm battery replacements. Tesla seems to have dropped the price of the 90kWh replacement battery pack to $11k in the US from $20k, and hinted at more price drops coming. I plan to replace the battery pack in our X when it hits 10 years old, so in about 5 years time. When I do that it will have MORE range than when new! So something as reliable as an Lexus EV + ongoing manufacture support could mean the RZE could become a car 'for life'. Reliability is Lexus USP, been able to market a 'car for life' would seriously acutally interest me. Swapping into a brand new car every X years is probably the worst thing any of us can do for the environment. My wifes IS300H is covering just 2500 miles an year, so even without a battery replacement it would take 40 years to hit 100k miles. I have zero confidence our Tesla will last half that time frame, but the RZE though I think may do that with ease.....My wifes main focus on any car is realibity which makes the RZE actually quite interesting as an option to replace the IS. The problem is the IS300H is already so reliable and cheap to own replacing make zero sense, which is an issue, if realibity is Lexus main USP what's the incentive to swap into a new one?

The comments on the Yoke seem genuinely interesting. Tesla still run a direct connection between the front wheels and the steering, where as the RZE deployment is totally independent. The advantage of the independence is quite big as you could actually than run the car fully autmonounsly without the steering wheel moving, giving you much better ergonomics for the driver to 'relax' etc. Will be good to test this is real life.

Really impressive realibity, our 2015 Premier owned from new is currently doing 2500 miles per YEAR, versus your 1800 miles per MONTH!! I keep on waiting for something to go wrong with it so I can have an excuse to replace it, but it looks like I will be waiting forever:).

This is the latest development of FSD beta in the US, European development is due to start this year. Our 2016 build date Tesla will/can run this software, what's the chance the 2022-23-24 or even 2025 build RZ will do anything close to this?

And I suspect show them the inside of any Tesla and no Lexus will every get a look in when considering future car purchases!! Children are our future, how many children do you see getting excited about seeing/owning a Lexus? The EVs Lexus produces now and in future has to excit and engage the future generation. Software is key, do you know whats utter mad about Teslas approach? By integrating a morden webrowser into the car and enabling USB control bus, I can actually run F1 2020 via Stadia in the car........it will actually work even whilst driving!!! No need for a massively complex local CPU/GPU, just a data connection. Tesla didn't design the system with this use in mind, but that what technology is actually about, its the users/third parties who can realise the potential of the systems. This is why software integration is the future, the potential for a car to be so much more than just getting from A to B is massive.

This is where you probably don't understand why Tesla stock is valued at more than Toyota, BMW, VAG combined.....What happens if you don't even need to drive the car to the service station? Instead the car can do it for you? How about the car now driving it self to service workshop at midnight, and returns it self to your drive way the next day? The prerequisite to that is the ability to 'unlock', 'start' the car remotely, all without the owners input. Building this level of integration into the firmware requires huge foward planning. It's the same with charging stats. We all know which way energy costs are going. In the future variable rate energy traiffs will be in abundance, yes you can try and control the charging to get the best cost via the charger, but its actually much easier to do from the car, for which you need the prerequisite data. As I mentioned before you just need to look at the DfT website about watching TV in autmonouns vehicles. The only car that I know which can run iPlayer/YouTube etc direct from the infotainment system is a Tesla. Everything Tesla had done so far in software development is focused on ensuring future relevance. You work in the NHS, so you will know how antiqued and utterly useless our IT systems are. But plenty of people seem to 'happy' to carry on as before, the reality is though through vertical software integration you can bring so much more efficiency and safety. However you need to fundamentally ensure the base code of the software aligns with future interoperability standards. SysmOne, EMIS Web DON'T, they aren't FHIR complinant, are not ready for cloud hosting etc. To prepare these systems for future interoperability is going to require a rewrite of the entire base code which is going to be massive task. The future of cars is not what Lexus/Toyota have been doing since inception. Its taken Lexus/Toyota this long to even just buy into EV development, which for everyone else is already 'done'. Tesla/VAG/Merc are now simply scalling up production. The next stage is software, all the 'gimmicks' to you are signs of a company that knows how to manage and develop software at a pace that Lexus/Toyota I suspect don't even understand let alone can match. If Lexus wants to remain relevant they better do something better than the RZ. Look at Jaguar, the iPace came out years ago, the press loved it, 'Tesla killer' was mentioned more than once, but now Jaguar on the brink of bankruptcy. Just building a 'premium' EV really doesn’t cut it these days. The EV drivetrain levels the playing fields for driving refinement, so you need a USP. What's Toyotas USP versus Mercedes/BMW etc?

Again the Tesla approach is totally different. Why on earth do you want to waste resource and time with a third party rather than deal directly with the vendor? Tesla's direct sales approach is been copied by nearly everyone. When I do my car off for a 'service' I didn't even need to leave my key with anyone, as Tesla could access the car without having my key. When the work was done I got a txt, and the invoice/payment was done straight on the phone app. The 'old world' of doing things is fine, but its expensive, resource intensive, and for a lot of people these days (my self included) pointless. I suspect Lexus as a brand will increasingly appeal to only a certain age group of consumers, which is fine. But if the brand cannot attract younger customers the future looks pretty bleak. The RZ (and future EVs) is chance for Lexus to attract new interest, but there is very little the RZ offers that would take customers away from the likes of Tesla. We have Lexus in the family, on the whole I like reliable cars, our Tesla has been the most unreliable car I have owned. However what Tesla offers interms of technology is simply too good resist/ignore. Our next car will 100% not be a RZ, but almost certainly another Tesla.

Absolutely correct but the reality is cars are expensive to develop, and EVs increasingly so. Aiming to become a small market player like say Aston Martin leaves you very vulnerable, and let's not forget Lexus is essentially Toyota, the mass market is what funds Lexus as a company. There is absolutely zero chance Lexus cab come close to competing with Tesla in any way or form interms of software integration. In a world where we are all use to banking, shopping etc using or mobile, gain instant access to data/features, having most likely your most expensive purchase after a house been isolated from the rest of your phone/information interoperability will become increasing unacceptable to most consumers. I can now see just how much, where, and when I have put electricity into my EV. This functionality 'appeared' about 2 months ago, and new data/functionality is constantlu been added......Will Lexus offer this level of software integration with the RZ? Is it really acceptable for a £50k+ product to be less accessible/connected digitally than a £80 hoover?? If you want Lexus to survive and continue to offer their USP of build quality, you need to be urging Lexus/Toyota to get in the game of software integration. VAG gets it, BMW gets it. The RZ is OK as an EV, but given it there isn't a delivery date, and everyone is coming out with EVs, been just OK really isn't good enough for a company the size of Toyota. https://insideevs.com/news/581461/vw-catch-tesla-software-plans/

Why is it so expensive??

The main USP between Tesla and everyone else is as you have already mentioned technology. Tesla is a technology/software company that happens to make cars, where as traditional car manufacturers are fitting technology/software into their cars. Our 4.5 year old Tesla pretty much did the 140 miles on the M1/M4/M6 without only a handful of interventions from me this evening. The performance of the Autopilot software right now is noticeably better than 18 months ago, in another 18 months the software will be better again. When was the last time Lexus improved the software in your car? Most car manufacturers cannot/woudlnt offer software support development as soon as it leaves the showroom where as Tesla are supporting/pushing features to cars made half a decade ago. The 'firmware' on Tesla cars have been designed from the ground up for software improvements and new feature deployment.

Technology though is the driver of the world we live in today. Its not an accident the world's wealthiest companies are all tech firms. On a similar note in my day jobs is more and more clear we need more technologies and integration in the NHS if we are going to get close to delivering health care needs for the future. Just doing what's been done before, which Lexus/Toyota is very good at simply doesn't cut it any more. If Toyota/Lexus wants to compete and stay relevant they need to innovate and do it as a much faster pace. EVs are already 'done', they will and are becoming mainstream. The next bit of innovation is now been developed. The proposal by the DfT shows what's coming next, the infotainment system in Teslas have been able to play iPlayer since 2017, and autonomy software in development since 2016.......Toyota/Lexus are so far behind the curve interms of technological innovation its like comparing a Cambrige Utd to Liverpool, or Waterstones to Amazon. Yes our Lexus is better built than our Tesal, but interms of relevance, our Lexus is a dead end. Check out which brands car is been featured on an official government website......Tesla spends £0 on advertising but their ability to influence is quite staggering. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-moves-closer-to-a-self-driving-revolution