Manifold / Dyno Performance Discussion

[Rob]

i have edited slightly what i wrote to make it a bit clearer

[Mr Morse]

That is absolutely bang on!

[Dave-Ellen]

well this has gone very off topic ........ so

  i think i have this right,  i dont really think that it makes much difference which dyno is used or if one is more accurate than the other,  providing that any error % remains the same throughout the power level, ie from 1hp thru to say 600hp( as an example only).  now based on this, if a car is tested before AND after a mod - a difference ( hopefully) should be shown and that difference can be put forward to the public as a % ie with this mod it showed a 5%, 10%, 15% increase in overall power/torque etc

is it  fair to say that would be true?

edited to make it a bit clearer

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Exactly the point I was trying to make........ :D

[Gord]

^^ Well why didnt you say so then ^^ :P

[Dave-Ellen]

^^ Well why didnt you say so then ^^  :P

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Think I did Mr 5 cylinders :P just think some people didnt want to "listen" :winky:

[tdiplc]

well this has gone very off topic ........ so

  i think i have this right,  i dont really think that it makes much difference which dyno is used or if one is more accurate than the other,  providing that any error % remains the same throughout the power level, ie from 1hp thru to say 600hp( as an example only).  now based on this, if a car is tested before AND after a mod - a difference ( hopefully) should be shown and that difference can be put forward to the public as a % ie with this mod it showed a 5%, 10%, 15% increase in overall power/torque etc

is it  fair to say that would be true?

edited to make it a bit clearer

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That is a very fair assumption which I would tend to agree with if I didn't have any experience.

The reality of dyno testing cars with an auto transimssion is that you are likely to get a different reading every time you test it due to the difficulty of disengaging gear at peak rpm. More often thean not, some transmission drag will be recorded as "power" when of course it is not, and the level of drag will be different every time which means that comparisons are useless. Mr Morrse's power curve is a classic "trans drag" shape.

What we tend to do with auto transmission cars is to give power and torque curves at the wheels as this in much more consistant (excusing tyre pressures and temps for the purposes of this topic), which means that any comparisons have some meaning.

Hope this helps.

[Mr Morse]

What we tend to do with auto transmission cars is to give power and torque curves at the wheels as this in much more consistant (excusing tyre pressures and temps for the purposes of this topic), which means that any comparisons have some meaning.

Hope this helps.

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Mark - the figures in the power/torque curve were recorded at the wheels. :D

[Monster-Mat]

mark....you have a PM i know

[aido]

Thanks for the transmission drag explanation Mark, I'm sort of starting to understand this a bit better now (never got mine done today :( )

So Mike, were your figures at the wheels or at the flywheel mate?

Think they were at the wheels?

Saying that, I've just heard some other figures on a certain Altezza that were very impressive :D

.. Edit .. Oops sorry guys I just saw Mikes comment above, I need to type quicker

[Mr Morse]

At the wheels!

[aido]

Sorry mate I was too slow

[tdiplc]

What we tend to do with auto transmission cars is to give power and torque curves at the wheels as this in much more consistant (excusing tyre pressures and temps for the purposes of this topic), which means that any comparisons have some meaning.

Hope this helps.

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Mark - the figures in the power/torque curve were recorded at the wheels. :D

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That is the sensible thing to do. I believe I said in an earlier post that the shape looked like trans drag, tyre slip or valve bounce.

My point is that I have never seen a power curve that looks like yours that wasn't attributed to errors or problems.

As long as you're happy with it - that is the main thing.

Hope some peeps learned something from my explanations anyway :)

[Bazza]

What we tend to do with auto transmission cars is to give power and torque curves at the wheels as this in much more consistant (excusing tyre pressures and temps for the purposes of this topic), which means that any comparisons have some meaning.

Hope this helps.

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Mark - the figures in the power/torque curve were recorded at the wheels. :D

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as 98% of all dyno readings are ;)

flywheel figures are usually a calculated guess

[Rob]

maybe a little if we are talking speciffically about mike ( which i wasnt if that was not clear) but there is something i am having difficulty understanding

could u help me?

Can you explain why you wont prove to people that your manifold/products actually work? , same goes for the " pulse tuning" manifold - you have not proved it actually works - just said so.

You are meant to be a "respected" tuner so what is there to hide?

just a general observation.

[tdiplc]

What we tend to do with auto transmission cars is to give power and torque curves at the wheels as this in much more consistant (excusing tyre pressures and temps for the purposes of this topic), which means that any comparisons have some meaning.

Hope this helps.

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Mark - the figures in the power/torque curve were recorded at the wheels. :D

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as 98% of all dyno readings are ;)

flywheel figures are usually a calculated guess

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If a decent machine is being used, manual transmission cars are easy to test time after time with repeatable results, but automatics can be a nightmare.

No rolling road or chassis dyno can measure power at the flywheel. Some claim to measure the losses but in reality they just add a percentage the figures taken at the wheels.

[tdiplc]

maybe a little if we are talking speciffically about mike ( which i wasnt if that was not clear)  but there is something i am having difficulty understanding

could u help me?

Can you explain why you wont prove to people that your manifold/products actually work?  , same goes for the " pulse tuning" manifold - you have not proved it actually works - just said so.

You are meant to be a "respected" tuner so what is there to hide?

just a general observation.

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I believe I have explained before that the reason we do not give away to much information any more is due to certain antagonistic individuals spoiling it for the rest.

Having said that, we probably will publish some of out test results in due course. We may also publish our benchmarking against other brands - haven't decided yet.

Thanks for your interest Rob

Let me know if you need any more help.

[Rob]

sorry mate didnt know antagonistic individuals...( hold on isnt that what it says in my sig?) prevent you from proving your stuff works - oh what a funny world we live in eh!

[tdiplc]

sorry mate didnt know antagonistic individuals...( hold on isnt that what it says in my sig?) prevent you from proving your stuff works - oh what a funny world we live in eh!

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You do know becasue I told you before.

Sometimes we choose to publish results in the public domain if we are in a friendly environment of if there is a clear commercial justificaion for doing so.

We do not have to prove anything to anybody.The fact that the first one and a half batches of our new manifolds have been pre-sold are testament to this. Only 2 of the people that bought them asked to see the results, preumably the rest bought them instead of an alternative brand because they think we have a better r&d facilities or they are not particularly interested in the results.

Maybe it's a funny old world as you say, but that's the reality.

[Rob]

well good to see that they have been pre sold - the people buying them must have loads and loads of cash though, esp when people dont even know the price or if there is even any performance gain, could even be a negative one.

dare i ask who or if anyone here bought one? or is it sensitive?

i am genuinly asking as i am after another manifold so.........can we see some piccys then??

[Nick The Greek]

well good to see that they have been pre sold - the people buying them must have loads and loads of cash though, esp when people dont even know the price or if there is even any performance gain, could even be a negative one.

dare i ask who or if anyone here bought one? or is it  sensitive?

i am genuinly asking as i am after another manifold so.........can we see some piccys then??

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me two!

I know roughly the prices, but am not going to part with cash without out seeing some proof of claims.

I want to know my hard-earned money will make a difference!

Unfortunetly, theres little selection for us IS200 owners, only 2, possibly 3 companies that are making manifolds :(

[Mr Morse]

Facts:

No pictures of this manifold have ever been published

No figures for the performance of this manifold have ever been published

No one on this forum (TMK) is aware of it's existence

Do you have a name for it......."Marie Celeste" seems appropriate

So......

Either put up, or shut up!

[arnold]

hi i am looking for a cheap way to get more power from my is200 and this sounds a good start, cant afford turbo or compressor,i have looked on the internet and have found three manifolds, tdi prolex and altezzasports, which one is the best please? my friend will do the install for me so just want one i can buy. just want more power on my is. thanking you

[Rob]

hi i am looking for a cheap way to get more power from my is200 and this sounds a good start, cant afford turbo or compressor,i have looked on the internet and have found three manifolds, tdi prolex and altezzasports, which one is the best please? my friend will do the install for me so just want one i can buy. just want more power on my is. thanking you

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In a perfectly un-biased honest opinion i would go for the supplier that proves the manifold they make/supply does actually give a performance benefit, rather than just looking good, if the supplier/tuner is unwilling, or is unable to provide that proof then that should tell you something.

[MrADeveci]

No figures for the performance of this manifold have ever been published

Either put up, or shut up!

I think you will be suprised ................. :D

[Adie]

No figures for the performance of this manifold have ever been published

Either put up, or shut up!

I think you will be suprised ................. :D

Do we have graphs and figures now then????