Satnav While Moving & The Law

[CRU Racing]

Hi

RX300 SatNav is the only one I've had that completely locks you out of using it while moving above a certain speed.

Can this feature be disabled so you can enter an address while moving? Can it possibly be unlawful considering the RX 450 h allows this?

Thanks

CRU Racing

[PCthug]

Hi

RX300 SatNav is the only one I've had that completely locks you out of using it while moving above a certain speed.

Can this feature be disabled so you can enter an address while moving? Can it possibly be unlawful considering the RX 450 h allows this?

Thanks

CRU Racing

Not sure if it can be enabled, but if your using it whilst driving, then you havent got your full attention on the road, and therefore driving without due care and attention.

[Neil Morphett]

Or see if your car takes the latest Nav DVD, which unlocks most of those functions other than some telephone ones. I think Lexus finally decided to bow to owner pressure or recognise that stopping on the hard shoulder to input a new destination is probably not actually safer than having your passenger enter a new destination on the move.

[Parthiban]

In terms of the law, it's not illegal as long as you still have proper control of the vehicle. In terms of the nav unit, with some of them updating to the latest DVD allows input while moving, but not sure if that applies to the RX.

I've never understood the lock, Mercs, BMWs (and pretty much everything else) allow full control so it really makes no sense.

[PCthug]

In terms of the law, it's not illegal as long as you still have proper control of the vehicle. In terms of the nav unit, with some of them updating to the latest DVD allows input while moving, but not sure if that applies to the RX.

I've never understood the lock, Mercs, BMWs (and pretty much everything else) allow full control so it really makes no sense.

I have to disagree...

firstly if you are looking at a satnav and have one hand on it are you in proper control of the vehicle?

Secondly this can carry a fine of £60 and 3 points for 'using a handheld device' (same as using a mobile phone).

It is rather tricky for the police to prove you were using it, as it is your word against theirs (unless they have you on the in car cctv), where a mobile phone records all calls/texts etc, so this is easier to prove.

You can contest this and go to court, but your on a hiding to nothing in most cases.

Lastly, i am a traffic cop.

[04AAA]

It is rather tricky for the police to prove you were using it, as it is your word against theirs (unless they have you on the in car cctv)

This would almost certainly get nowhere in court and the cctv is extremely unlikely to show something that is happening inside the car at the level of the switches - though may well show you have one hand off the wheel.

Personally I think it is simply stupid to drive while concentrating on entering addresses or other information into the satnav/phone/x-device. When you take your mind off the road at ANY speed you may soon find you have lost control of the car and ended up in a ditch, hitting a tree or other unforgiving object or worse still hitting a pedestrian or cyclist.

But I too don't understand the reason for the lock as it would also stop the passenger making changes.

Though the answer is simple - pull over, stop, make the changes and then get back to enjoying driving your Lexus.

[Parthiban]

I have to disagree...

firstly if you are looking at a satnav and have one hand on it are you in proper control of the vehicle?

Secondly this can carry a fine of £60 and 3 points for 'using a handheld device' (same as using a mobile phone).

It is rather tricky for the police to prove you were using it, as it is your word against theirs (unless they have you on the in car cctv), where a mobile phone records all calls/texts etc, so this is easier to prove.

You can contest this and go to court, but your on a hiding to nothing in most cases.

Lastly, i am a traffic cop.

Thanks for your input, it's good to hear from an actual policeman to get a view of the other side of things. Personally I think it's pretty stupid to actually be entering a destination while on the move, and it's nothing I'd ever try to do even if I could, but it shouldn't stop my passenger putting one in?

Surely you couldn't get done for using a handheld device though, as it isn't a handheld device. And how different is it to changing stations on your stereo? At the end of the day my understanding was that you couldn't be prosecuted for just using your satnav (like you can with mobile phones nowadays) and you'd actually have to be driving dangerously to be pulled over.

If not, where do you draw the line? I don't do anything else while I'm driving, as for me that's what the focus should be on. But everyday I see people doing manoeuvres that seem dangerous to me, because they're smoking, or eating something, or countless other things I've seen. Surely they're all in the same boat, but technically they're not are they?

I'd be interested to hear what the hard line would be around these issues :)

[PCthug]

SatNavs are classed as a handheld device, despite them being window mounted.

An incar CCTC can show it quite easily, and especially if its in an unmarked car as you can pull up beside them and adjust the camera.

When changing channel on the radio, its ONE button, so not really a distraction as such. And certainly not as bad as programming a satnav.

Eating, shaving, applying make-up, sneezing can and are reasons why people crash, although they arent illegal to do (as such), but believe me if your involved in a fatal whilst doing any of these, the courts will take a dim view of it, as you will, be driving without due care and attention.

I guess it could be similar to driving 30mph (in a 30 zone) that is a tight street of terraced houses with parked cars either side. You are driving within the speed limit, but are you driving as you should for the conditions? A court would slate you if you were involved in a fatal.

I only got my RX4 yesterday, and tried to get the wife to program the satnav, but then realised she couldnt as the car was moving. I can see why Lexus do this, but it can also be frustrating.

[Parthiban]

SatNavs are classed as a handheld device, despite them being window mounted.

But we're talking about the inbuilt satnav so surely that can't be classed as a handheld device? It's the same as adjusting the radio, just a few more buttons :P

I do agree with most of what you're saying, but find it irritating that particular things are picked out and others like eating are not held in the same regard despite being just as dangerous - at the end of the day you're still driving with only one hand and the other isn't free to come straight back to the wheel if required.

I guess it's similar to how speeding is seen as such a no no, and enforced with almost draconian measures, but no one even considers those who hog the right lane, and cause traffic to bunch up and drive too close to each other, resulting in several rear end impacts (which I see on a regular basis). To me it's more important to let traffic flow at a more natural speed than be fixated on the specific speed (as long as it's not ridiculous) - it's understandable why so many feel speeding is used as a moneyspinner. It's exactly as you say, speed should be related to conditions, and not just a fixed limit.

Never mind though, nothing I can do about it :)

[04AAA]

I do agree with most of what you're saying, but find it irritating that particular things are picked out and others like eating are not held in the same regard despite being just as dangerous - at the end of the day you're still driving with only one hand and the other isn't free to come straight back to the wheel if required.

That is not true though.

Eating, smoking, changing gear, pressing one button on your radio/cd changer, raising/lowering the window DO all take your hand from the wheel but the thought process is minimal and hardly impairs concentration. Most competent drivers making such actions do not even take their eyes off the road and their awareness of their driving situation, the action is virtually reflexive.

However, keying information into a satnav, mobile phone, etc not only involves a visual distraction from the road but also requires a significant distraction of thought. Whilst working out how to operate such gadgets and which data to enter your mind is not concentrating on keeping the car and its occupants safe.

Also at speed, the distance covered during this distraction is not only considerable but the time and distance available to make any correction (swerve, brake) is much shorter. I believe also there is some evidence to suggest that the recovery of focused concentration required to re-establish control in an emergency situation is considerably reduced where the distraction has involve some other thought process.

[04AAA]

double post :mat:

[ihpj]

Lexus seem obsessed with Nannying their owners :P It can be more dangerous for the vehicle to be stopped at the side of the road for access to be re-enabled than using it on the move.

[PCthug]

Lexus seem obsessed with Nannying their owners :P It can be more dangerous for the vehicle to be stopped at the side of the road for access to be re-enabled than using it on the move.

Hmmmm, yes but, surely you wouldnt stop in a dangerous position to adjust your satnav. That is asking for trouble.

Most people would find somewhere safe to stop, and therefore it is less dangerous than doing it on the move.

Thats like arguing "if i cant use my mobile phone whilst driving, i will stop in the middle of lane 2 on the A1 to send a text/make a call, that'll teach 'em".

[PCthug]

SatNavs are classed as a handheld device, despite them being window mounted.

But we're talking about the inbuilt satnav so surely that can't be classed as a handheld device? It's the same as adjusting the radio, just a few more buttons :P

Your right in this instance, but you would still be driving without due care.

[Tango]

The latest DVD satnav set for the second gen IS unlocks the system whilst on the move. Also, once unlocked the original DVD can be reinserted and the system remains unlocked. (I transferred the latest version DVD from the IS250 to the IS-F and replaced it with the 2008 version and the satnavs on both can be used whilst moving).

Any changes I have done on the move are mostly a one button press if It cannot be voice activated, and I cannot see this as any different than doing similar with the ICE. Obviously if you choose to do this in a situation where your attention should be totally focussed on observation and driving then you are an idiot and deserve to be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, but I find it hard to believe that it could be used as a reason for a successful prosecution, unless of course you freely admit to haveing done so.

[ihpj]

Hmmmm, yes but, surely you wouldn't stop in a dangerous position to adjust your satnav.

Not quite. There is no 'safe' place to stop at the side of most roads. Can't do it on a Motorway; can't do it on a Dual Carriageway, single lanes are the same, usually demarked with single (or double) yellow lines. In town traffic its not always possible to stop safely either.

Anytime you have a stationary vehicle at the side of the road, it is inherently unsafe - thats why Police patrols are given specific training in staying visible and proper parking when conducting stops ;)

[Parthiban]

That is not true though.

Eating, smoking, changing gear, pressing one button on your radio/cd changer, raising/lowering the window DO all take your hand from the wheel but the thought process is minimal and hardly impairs concentration. Most competent drivers making such actions do not even take their eyes off the road and their awareness of their driving situation, the action is virtually reflexive.

Agree with you regarding concentration, what I meant was that with one hand out of action I'd imagine the majority of drivers would not have full control of their cars with only one hand on the wheel. So therefore are they driving without due care?

The latest DVD satnav set for the second gen IS unlocks the system whilst on the move. Also, once unlocked the original DVD can be reinserted and the system remains unlocked. (I transferred the latest version DVD from the IS250 to the IS-F and replaced it with the 2008 version and the satnavs on both can be used whilst moving).

Any changes I have done on the move are mostly a one button press if It cannot be voice activated, and I cannot see this as any different than doing similar with the ICE. Obviously if you choose to do this in a situation where your attention should be totally focussed on observation and driving then you are an idiot and deserve to be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, but I find it hard to believe that it could be used as a reason for a successful prosecution, unless of course you freely admit to haveing done so.

Yep exactly that, you'd hope that people aren't stupid enough to enter a destination while doing 70 on the motorway..........

Shame they don't offer those firmware upgrades separately (like Mercedes for example) as I'm sure many don't actually need the map upgrade.

[PCthug]

Hmmmm, yes but, surely you wouldn't stop in a dangerous position to adjust your satnav.

Not quite. There is no 'safe' place to stop at the side of most roads. Can't do it on a Motorway; can't do it on a Dual Carriageway, single lanes are the same, usually demarked with single (or double) yellow lines. In town traffic its not always possible to stop safely either.

Anytime you have a stationary vehicle at the side of the road, it is inherently unsafe - thats why Police patrols are given specific training in staying visible and proper parking when conducting stops ;)

Of course it's dangerous and that's exactly why you wouldn't stop there. On most roads, if not all roads, there are car parks, petrol stations or even quieter side roads where you can pull into to program a satnav.

It would be a poor argument, saying "it should not be illegal to set a satnav whilst moving, and worth putting others at risk, the reason being i am too lazy to go 30 seconds out of my way and being inconvenienced".

There are always ways round things.

[fil4362]

CB radio, 2 way radio both legal. neither is hands free yet still legal. Dont you still have them in your traffic cars ?? and all police have them on uniforms and use while driving. So thats the traffic coppers arguement delt with. yes you do use them i have even seen them on the tv all the trafic coppers programs show police using hand held devices whilst driving. ok so there fixed to your uniforms but you still have to let go of the steerign wheel to press a button to transmit your message just like a mobile phone, these are legal and diffrent from anything else how ??

Touch screen stereos or any stereo for that matter, is it illegal to change a radio station while driving??. Your minds not fully on the road if your chatting to a passenger or using hands free kit, both are still legal. I understand your point no one should be doing anything whilst driving but how boring does driving become if you cant change radio station or chat to a mate or worse of all take direction from the wife (if you dont have sat nav). changing sat nav whilst driving shouldnt be a problem though, set it before you leave then leave it alone why would you need to change it whilst on your way to where your going! Yes you may need to stop for fuel or your dinner,and need to change destination, but if you plan correctly before you leave you shouldnt need to change it whilst driving.

[PCthug]

CB radio, 2 way radio both legal. neither is hands free yet still legal. Dont you still have them in your traffic cars ?? and all police have them on uniforms and use while driving. So thats the traffic coppers arguement delt with. yes you do use them i have even seen them on the tv all the trafic coppers programs show police using hand held devices whilst driving. ok so there fixed to your uniforms but you still have to let go of the steerign wheel to press a button to transmit your message just like a mobile phone, these are legal and diffrent from anything else how ??

Touch screen stereos or any stereo for that matter, is it illegal to change a radio station while driving??. Your minds not fully on the road if your chatting to a passenger or using hands free kit, both are still legal. I understand your point no one should be doing anything whilst driving but how boring does driving become if you cant change radio station or chat to a mate or worse of all take direction from the wife (if you dont have sat nav). changing sat nav whilst driving shouldnt be a problem though, set it before you leave then leave it alone why would you need to change it whilst on your way to where your going! Yes you may need to stop for fuel or your dinner,and need to change destination, but if you plan correctly before you leave you shouldnt need to change it whilst driving.

Cant argue there, i agree.

Police using the radio, taxi drivers using the radio etc, there are all destractions.

I think programming a Satnav is more of a destraction than most things though (on par with texting).

I guess it all depends how long you have to keep your eyes/mind off the road.

With a handsfree or radio it can be a fraction of a second, with SatNav or mobile phone it can be prolonged.

I have had this discussion before, and being a traffic cop i must have in excess of 70 buttons to press whilst driving, from the blue lights/sirens to the speed detection device to the radio to the rear matrix message board.

Not only do i have to do this, but, if responding to a job, i also think about where i am going, best routes, action at a scene, road blockages, other emergency services. If i am pursuing someone i also have to think about 13 other pointers too that all have to be relayed over the radio. On top of this i am driving way in excess of the speed limit. All within a 12 hour shift (usually without a break). Its a recipe for disaster.

Being a police officer it would be almost impossible to carry out the job efficiently without doing things like this, and also speeding, contreviening red lights etc. However if something goes wrong and we are found to be at fault, then we are held accountable (and rightly so).

I have to dissagree about the wife bit though ;-)

[04AAA]

I have had this discussion before, and being a traffic cop i must have in excess of 70 buttons to press whilst driving, from the blue lights/sirens to the speed detection device to the radio to the rear matrix message board.

Not only do i have to do this, but, if responding to a job, i also think about where i am going, best routes, action at a scene, road blockages, other emergency services. If i am pursuing someone i also have to think about 13 other pointers too that all have to be relayed over the radio. On top of this i am driving way in excess of the speed limit. All within a 12 hour shift (usually without a break). Its a recipe for disaster.

Being a police officer it would be almost impossible to carry out the job efficiently without doing things like this, and also speeding, contravening red lights etc. However if something goes wrong and we are found to be at fault, then we are held accountable (and rightly so).

Fortunately you do receive some training unlike the majority of almost inexperienced drivers who find themselves behind the wheel of a powerful car.

The journey from the rather pathetic driving lessons and test to a fast and powerful car is often far too short. How many of us have experienced driving in pouring rain, snow, the dark, fog, narrow country lanes, motorway traffic without any tuition whatsoever? Yet we can pass the test and be let loose the next day in a car capable of twice the highest speed limit in any of these conditions.

Add to that mix the youthful bravado, adrenalin rush (if not something more potent) and you get the inevitable tree wrapper or worse.

[PCthug]

I have had this discussion before, and being a traffic cop i must have in excess of 70 buttons to press whilst driving, from the blue lights/sirens to the speed detection device to the radio to the rear matrix message board.

Not only do i have to do this, but, if responding to a job, i also think about where i am going, best routes, action at a scene, road blockages, other emergency services. If i am pursuing someone i also have to think about 13 other pointers too that all have to be relayed over the radio. On top of this i am driving way in excess of the speed limit. All within a 12 hour shift (usually without a break). Its a recipe for disaster.

Being a police officer it would be almost impossible to carry out the job efficiently without doing things like this, and also speeding, contravening red lights etc. However if something goes wrong and we are found to be at fault, then we are held accountable (and rightly so).

Fortunately you do receive some training unlike the majority of almost inexperienced drivers who find themselves behind the wheel of a powerful car.

The journey from the rather pathetic driving lessons and test to a fast and powerful car is often far too short. How many of us have experienced driving in pouring rain, snow, the dark, fog, narrow country lanes, motorway traffic without any tuition whatsoever? Yet we can pass the test and be let loose the next day in a car capable of twice the highest speed limit in any of these conditions.

Add to that mix the youthful bravado, adrenalin rush (if not something more potent) and you get the inevitable tree wrapper or worse.

The amount of crashes i have been to involving drivers within the first month of passing a test is crazy.

I always say to them "you have learnt how to pass a test, now learn how to drive".

[fil4362]

Question for the traffic copper. If you was at a red light and both lanes infront of you had cars in them, the lane to the offisde/right was coned of for 100 yards behind you and driving on the pavement is out of the question, would you expect the drivers in the cars at the lights to move out of your way ?? and secondly do they have to?

[PCthug]

Question for the traffic copper. If you was at a red light and both lanes infront of you had cars in them, the lane to the offisde/right was coned of for 100 yards behind you and driving on the pavement is out of the question, would you expect the drivers in the cars at the lights to move out of your way ?? and secondly do they have to?

I take it you mean if a call comes in?

It would depend on the call. If it was life and death then i would try and get them to move out of the way IF SAFE TO DO SO.

If it was someone breaking into a shed, then i may wait until the lights turn green and the cars start to move before putting on blues and twos.

The offence has to fit your actions (or vice versa).

When i park behind a vehicle in a jam, i allow space in front so i can get out without reversing or them having to move forward. I make sure i can see their tyres and an amount of tarmac between the nose of my bonnet and their vehicle.

There has been many a time when i have been responding and come across a jam that i know cant go anywhere, so i turn the blues and twos off so i dont force them to do something dangerous that can cause a collision.

It all comes down to training, experience and aggression how each copper responds.

[fil4362]

Question for the traffic copper. If you was at a red light and both lanes infront of you had cars in them, the lane to the offisde/right was coned of for 100 yards behind you and driving on the pavement is out of the question, would you expect the drivers in the cars at the lights to move out of your way ?? and secondly do they have to?

I take it you mean if a call comes in?

It would depend on the call. If it was life and death then i would try and get them to move out of the way IF SAFE TO DO SO.

If it was someone breaking into a shed, then i may wait until the lights turn green and the cars start to move before putting on blues and twos.

The offence has to fit your actions (or vice versa).

When i park behind a vehicle in a jam, i allow space in front so i can get out without reversing or them having to move forward. I make sure i can see their tyres and an amount of tarmac between the nose of my bonnet and their vehicle.

There has been many a time when i have been responding and come across a jam that i know cant go anywhere, so i turn the blues and twos off so i dont force them to do something dangerous that can cause a collision.

It all comes down to training, experience and aggression how each copper responds.

Good answer sir so why doesnt it happen like that.

My link

. that was me a while ago. as you can see i was less than a cars length through the line and no where near the junction of the road and in no danger at all or caused any danger to anyone else. You would believe the fuss i had getting of with it.

When the lights did change i followed the police van. It had stopped outside the local station. When i asked as to the nature of the police vans hurry (in the following days) i was told the emergancy was a prisoner in the cells and as it was a skelinton staff station they needed back up. Prisoner?? my local station doesnt have cells or even interview room. It was half nine at night ( i think) and my local station is only open office hours. I still even now dont understand the law of what to do if i was in the same situation again!