Bhp

[noby76]

matts quote

"So back to his "formula". 500hp is 500hp. Lets turbocharge the IS and give it 500bhp. Now lets take a Formula 3000 car, that has a three litre engine, just like your IS, and makes around 500bhp (460-500 ball park), and lets put them both on the dyno.

Which is faster?"

[noby76]

which is faster? guess what matt they both the same. why do i say this?

lets say the formula 3000 car weighs 650KG strip the IS300 from 1500KG to the same weight of 650KG and it will pull as fast as the formula 3000's car either on the road or on the dyno. or if you wish add another 850KG to the weight of the formula 3000 car to total 1500KG and it wont pull any faster than the IS300 with 500bhp now does that make sense?

[TigerFish]

What are you talking about mate? If you add 850kg to the formula 3000 car, or strip 850 from the IS300, you either no longer have a Formula 3000 car or an IS300. The argument falls flat.

Then there is torque, which chucks both sides argument out of the window.

[noby76]

yes Tiger Fish this is what I am trying to let matt know. power is power regarless of aspiration or weight of a car. once you balance the weights of both cars, either by increasing the weight of a 650KG to 1500KG by adding 850kg to it or decreasing the weight of I300 from 1500KG to 650KG they will both be equal and one wont pull any faster than the other. please explain how Torque chucks both arguments out of the window??

infact torque rather gets chucked out of the window if both cars make 500bhp at the crank. why?

this has always been the formula of calculating BHP. Torque(lb-ft) x time (rpm) /5252. that is (lb-ft * rpm /5252)

so if the IS300 makes 500bhp at a redline 6000rpm, it will need to make a whopping 438lbft(593NM) at 6000rpm to yield 500bhp.below is the formula.

438lb-ft * 6000rpm / 5252 = 500bhp

if the formula 3000 engine makes 500bhp at a redline 10,000rpm , it will need a very small 263(356NM) at 10,000rpm to yeild 500bhp. below is the formula.

263lb-ft * 10,000rpm /5252 = 500bhp

so can you now see why torque gets thrown out of the window if both engines makes the same power at different rpms? the formula 3000 engine makes a small torque of only 263lb-ft(356NM) but yet still is was chucking out 500bhp at 10,000rpm. IS300 Turbo engine had a more 438lbft(593NM) at 6000rpm but yet still made 500bhp. so like i mentioned in my first post, if the IS300 is reduced to 650kg to match the formula 3000' weight, it will pull as fast once it kisses 6000rpm or vice versa, if the formula 3000 car is increased by 850kg (650+850) to 1500kg which the the current weight of my IS300, it will wont pull any faster even tho it revs to 10,000rpm.

like i said power is power regarless of aspiration.

[Venator]

Get the Stig to drive them and find out :outforcount:

[steve2006]

Get the Stig to drive them and find out :outforcount:

Don't get me involved, I only drive them!

[noby76]

Get the Stig to drive them and find out :outforcount:

Don't get me involved, I only drive them!

:lol:

[LexIS200Sport]

While we're talking about the Stig...er...I mean Steve... are the LFA and IS-F the only two Lexuses (Lexii?) to have lapped the TG track? Or have I missed out any?

[TigerFish]

yes Tiger Fish this is what I am trying to let matt know. power is power regarless of aspiration or weight of a car. once you balance the weights of both cars, either by increasing the weight of a 650KG to 1500KG by adding 850kg to it or decreasing the weight of I300 from 1500KG to 650KG they will both be equal and one wont pull any faster than the other. please explain how Torque chucks both arguments out of the window??

infact torque rather gets chucked out of the window if both cars make 500bhp at the crank. why?

this has always been the formula of calculating BHP. Torque(lb-ft) x time (rpm) /5252. that is (lb-ft * rpm /5252)

so if the IS300 makes 500bhp at a redline 6000rpm, it will need to make a whopping 438lbft(593NM) at 6000rpm to yield 500bhp.below is the formula.

438lb-ft * 6000rpm / 5252 = 500bhp

if the formula 3000 engine makes 500bhp at a redline 10,000rpm , it will need a very small 263(356NM) at 10,000rpm to yeild 500bhp. below is the formula.

263lb-ft * 10,000rpm /5252 = 500bhp

so can you now see why torque gets thrown out of the window if both engines makes the same power at different rpms? the formula 3000 engine makes a small torque of only 263lb-ft(356NM) but yet still is was chucking out 500bhp at 10,000rpm. IS300 Turbo engine had a more 438lbft(593NM) at 6000rpm but yet still made 500bhp. so like i mentioned in my first post, if the IS300 is reduced to 650kg to match the formula 3000' weight, it will pull as fast once it kisses 6000rpm or vice versa, if the formula 3000 car is increased by 850kg (650+850) to 1500kg which the the current weight of my IS300, it will wont pull any faster even tho it revs to 10,000rpm.

like i said power is power regarless of aspiration.

Love it

I know very well how power and torque ratios work.

So, what you are saying is....

1. If I turbo charge my IS to 500bhp @ 6000rpm
   
2. If the F3000 is 500bhp @ 10000rmp
   
3. Add weigth to the F3000, or remove weight from the IS300 to make them the same.
   

..... they will both do 0-150 in the exact same time?

Dream on.

Okay, now lets see all the pointless numbers and equations you'll post that will.....

1. cancel out aerodynamics
   
2. cancel out different torque curves
   
3. cancel out different bhp curves
   
4. cancel out the gear ratios
   

In different cars, 500bhp in one may well be the same as 500bhp in the other, but it doesn't make the whole playing field the same. One may produce 500BHP for a 500rpm range, the other for 50rpm.

I admire your enthusiasm, even if it is misplaced at times.

[noby76]

yes Tiger Fish this is what I am trying to let matt know. power is power regarless of aspiration or weight of a car. once you balance the weights of both cars, either by increasing the weight of a 650KG to 1500KG by adding 850kg to it or decreasing the weight of I300 from 1500KG to 650KG they will both be equal and one wont pull any faster than the other. please explain how Torque chucks both arguments out of the window??

infact torque rather gets chucked out of the window if both cars make 500bhp at the crank. why?

this has always been the formula of calculating BHP. Torque(lb-ft) x time (rpm) /5252. that is (lb-ft * rpm /5252)

so if the IS300 makes 500bhp at a redline 6000rpm, it will need to make a whopping 438lbft(593NM) at 6000rpm to yield 500bhp.below is the formula.

438lb-ft * 6000rpm / 5252 = 500bhp

if the formula 3000 engine makes 500bhp at a redline 10,000rpm , it will need a very small 263(356NM) at 10,000rpm to yeild 500bhp. below is the formula.

263lb-ft * 10,000rpm /5252 = 500bhp

so can you now see why torque gets thrown out of the window if both engines makes the same power at different rpms? the formula 3000 engine makes a small torque of only 263lb-ft(356NM) but yet still is was chucking out 500bhp at 10,000rpm. IS300 Turbo engine had a more 438lbft(593NM) at 6000rpm but yet still made 500bhp. so like i mentioned in my first post, if the IS300 is reduced to 650kg to match the formula 3000' weight, it will pull as fast once it kisses 6000rpm or vice versa, if the formula 3000 car is increased by 850kg (650+850) to 1500kg which the the current weight of my IS300, it will wont pull any faster even tho it revs to 10,000rpm.

like i said power is power regarless of aspiration.

Love it

I know very well how power and torque ratios work.

So, what you are saying is....

1. If I turbo charge my IS to 500bhp @ 6000rpm
   
2. If the F3000 is 500bhp @ 10000rmp
   
3. Add weigth to the F3000, or remove weight from the IS300 to make them the same.
   

..... they will both do 0-150 in the exact same time?

Dream on.

Okay, now lets see all the pointless numbers and equations you'll post that will.....

1. cancel out aerodynamics
   
2. cancel out different torque curves
   
3. cancel out different bhp curves
   
4. cancel out the gear ratios
   

In different cars, 500bhp in one may well be the same as 500bhp in the other, but it doesn't make the whole playing field the same. One may produce 500BHP for a 500rpm range, the other for 50rpm.

I admire your enthusiasm, even if it is misplaced at times.

am admiring yours too but there is one flaw. if F3000's engine produces 500bhp across 500rpm range and IS300 Turbo engine produces 500bhp across 50rpm then torque curve hasnt been cancled out then has it TigerFish??

if both engines make the same 500bhp and you cancel out aerodynamics, bhp curves, gear ratios and most important torque curve and i say most important because torque gives birth to horsepower(most people think they dont relate to each other). then 500bhp for both engines will only run across the rpm 500bhp is made and then drop off once they go pat that rpm why do i say this??

i say this because for any car on this planet to make 500bhp over 500rpm range it would need a flat Torque Curve. have a flat torque curve and you will have 500bhp across 500rpm . cancle out a flat torque curve and you have cancled out F3000's engine from making 500bhp across 500rpm. which will result in it making it at only 10,000 rpm and then fall off. so if i cancle out torque curve as you suggested in your list then guess what? none of these engines will make 500bhp across 500rpm. this ability will also boil doin to if the F3000 engine has 500 extra more revs on the rev limiter to play with once 10,000rpm is reached but if fuel cut off is set at 10,050rpm then guess what TigerFish this 500bhp across 500rpm will not be possible either.

I await your response on this

[matt-c]

Dyno reports on horsepower mean nothing. 500bhp at the wheels means nothing. 500bhp at the fly means nothing.

BHP per tonne, now that's another story. That's what it's all about.

500bhp in a 1.5 tonne car = 333bhp per tonne. 500bhp in a 750kg car = 666bhp per tonne.

All well and good having 1000hp, but if you car weighs 2 tonnes and a car that weighs 750kg has a 500bhp engine, you're going to lose.

The fact that you've gone on and on and on and on about how fast your car is, and how it out performs so much else, but then go on to say it needs to be turbo'd and modified to out perform other cars, highlights the fact you are a plank. To then go on about stripping weight out of your car and adding weight to other cars to match, further highlights you are a plank.

Either way, you're a plank.

/thread

[noby76]

Dyno reports on horsepower mean nothing. 500bhp at the wheels means nothing. 500bhp at the fly means nothing.

BHP per tonne, now that's another story. That's what it's all about.

500bhp in a 1.5 tonne car = 333bhp per tonne. 500bhp in a 750kg car = 666bhp per tonne.

All well and good having 1000hp, but if you car weighs 2 tonnes and a car that weighs 750kg has a 500bhp engine, you're going to lose.

The fact that you've gone on and on and on and on about how fast your car is, and how it out performs so much else, but then go on to say it needs to be turbo'd and modified to out perform other cars, highlights the fact you are a plank. To then go on about stripping weight out of your car and adding weight to other cars to match, further highlights you are a plank.

Either way, you're a plank.

/thread

haha i smell chicken!! common sense should tell you in order for a fare race between the two, thing have to be somewhat equal between the cars for this to happen. like i said matt you come across an intelligent boy and i applaud you!!

[matt-c]

No, to have a fair race, you have to have two standard cars. If your standard IS300 gets beaten by a modified Fiesta, you'll say it's unfair. If you modify your IS300 to be able to beat a standard M5, you claim it's fair.

/simple

[noby76]

No, to have a fair race, you have to have two standard cars. If your standard IS300 gets beaten by a modified Fiesta, you'll say it's unfair. If you modify your IS300 to be able to beat a standard M5, you claim it's fair.

/simple

matt lets go back to nursery school. there are 2 baskets 1 lablled apples and 1 lablled oranges. now teacher Noddy hands you an IS300 toy car with turbo 500bhp printed on it and also hands you another toy car with BMW M5 NA 500bhp printed on it..

and says hello matt lets play a game called toy in a basket. and says can you place all the turbo cars in the the basket labled oranges and all the NA cars to apples basket. which you then did succesfully. she says good boy and then says hello matt, can you group all cars with 500bhp printed on them into the baskets.

now am asking you matt will both toys end up in seperate baskets?? if yes, explain why?.

[matt-c]

I'd rename the baskets "standard" and "modified", then tell the teacher to go back to school and learn some common sense. Just as you should.

[noby76]

haha :D ..thought we have always been talking about apples and oranges? why steer away from it all of a sudden and start renaming to modified and standard matt?? thats so not fare!! ok let me ask you a queation. in order for a 3litre to be brought up to the level and when i say level i mean horsepower. in order for that 3 litre to come to the level of a 5litre V10 500bhp car what needs to be done to the 3litre engine?

once you have answered the first question successfully can they now be classified as apples with regards to thier BHP?? if no tell me why?

[matt-c]

Why rename to standard and modified? Because it's unFAIR (a fare is a ticket price for riding on public transport) to lump apples and oranges into the same basket.

And yes, we are talking about apples and oranges. Apples - standard car. Oranges - modified car. Standard car vs modified car = apples and oranges.

What needs to be done to the 3L to achieve the same "level" as a 5L V10 with 500bhp? That's easy - the 3L car needs to be sold and replaced with a car that has a 500bhp 5L V10.

[noby76]

you being a chicken and silly now matt.Tell that to Nissan GTR drivers. let me know how deep you have dugged that hole for your self. like i said you come across very intelligent :D

[matt-c]

I'm actually a human. And tell what to Nissan GTR owners? That they don't have a 5L V10 with 500bhp under the bonnet? Why would I tell them that - they already know that.

[noby76]

but common sense should tell you in order for them to make a V10 500BHP figure in the GTR, they need go modify(Turbo) to do this. this results in a 3.8 litre sucking in rougly the same air into its cylinders as that of a 10 cylinder 5 litre to make it happen. you dissapoint me matt thought highly of you. honestly i did

[matt-c]

They already have a turbo. Most have two. Do you actually know anything about the cars your talking about?

[noby76]

again common sense should tell you they needed it for thier 3.8 litre to make that power just as much as an IS300 should need it(turbo) to make that power. very dissapointed in you matt :ooh-ducky:

[matt-c]

Good to know, thanks

[Raymond.]

This is getting boring!

What 'GT-R' are you talking about? V35, V36 or V37

If you're grouping an M5 with a current line Skyline please use a current M5 and not some old tat...

M5 is 4.4L V8 TT btw....

[steve2006]

It certainly is.... thread closed :D