Lpg

[brendangeorge]

I expect to be in a 460 in a year, or two at the most, so will be buying petrol then :)

Bren

They are an impressive looking car aren't they?

Bit worried about all the gizmos though, as the car gets older, similarly with the 430.

Yep very impressive - and I am also concerned about the crash sensors and power steering etc - some of the faults reported and bilblical repair costs are worrying. Also there are so few on the road there will be none to speak of being broken for spares when they get old. I was expecting to lose my 430 this year but managed to keep it on the road (I will post about it later) so the 460 will have to wait a bit longer.

Bren

[ManicMark]

When the 460s get to 7 years old they will release the fuel timing settings for it & there should be lpg kits available soon after that.

[brendangeorge]

When the 460s get to 7 years old they will release the fuel timing settings for it & there should be lpg kits available soon after that.

I really hope so Mark.

Unfortunately I am not sure the timing and electronics etc are the problems - with all the tools available it is possible to sort that out if you want to pay. The big challenge is the direct injection system - the petrol injectors go straight into the cylinders so they need to be cooled when running on gas or possibly you could run on a mix of petrol and gas - assuming there is somewher you can fit the gas injectors - but this would kill the economics. You will then need to sort out the ECU to drive all this.

As an engineer I expect some clever so and so will come up with a solution and there is hope as most petrol engine manufacturers move to DGI the LPG converters will have to keep up.

Cheers

Bren

[ManicMark]

When the 460s get to 7 years old they will release the fuel timing settings for it & there should be lpg kits available soon after that.

I really hope so Mark.

Unfortunately I am not sure the timing and electronics etc are the problems - with all the tools available it is possible to sort that out if you want to pay. The big challenge is the direct injection system - the petrol injectors go straight into the cylinders so they need to be cooled when running on gas or possibly you could run on a mix of petrol and gas - assuming there is somewher you can fit the gas injectors - but this would kill the economics. You will then need to sort out the ECU to drive all this.

As an engineer I expect some clever so and so will come up with a solution and there is hope as most petrol engine manufacturers move to DGI the LPG converters will have to keep up.

Cheers

Bren

AC stag are already doing DGI or DPI systems if you go on their website there is a list of cars they do.AC400 DPI controllers All they need is the timing stats which are normally released 7 years after first production to develop a system for a specific model.

Leon from Profess will let you know more about it if you pm him. I spoke with him about it when I was last there as a mate is thinking about a 460 or 600.

[Ifty]

Most I ever got is 302 miles, midlands to London, heavy traffic in London then back to Midlands. Normally I get approx 270-280 miles on a full tank of LPG same journey. My tank by the way will not take more than 60 litres of LPG.

Regards

Ifty

[brendangeorge]

When the 460s get to 7 years old they will release the fuel timing settings for it & there should be lpg kits available soon after that.

I really hope so Mark.

Unfortunately I am not sure the timing and electronics etc are the problems - with all the tools available it is possible to sort that out if you want to pay. The big challenge is the direct injection system - the petrol injectors go straight into the cylinders so they need to be cooled when running on gas or possibly you could run on a mix of petrol and gas - assuming there is somewher you can fit the gas injectors - but this would kill the economics. You will then need to sort out the ECU to drive all this.

As an engineer I expect some clever so and so will come up with a solution and there is hope as most petrol engine manufacturers move to DGI the LPG converters will have to keep up.

Cheers

Bren

AC stag are already doing DGI or DPI systems if you go on their website there is a list of cars they do.AC400 DPI controllers All they need is the timing stats which are normally released 7 years after first production to develop a system for a specific model.

Leon from Profess will let you know more about it if you pm him. I spoke with him about it when I was last there as a mate is thinking about a 460 or 600.

I talked to STAG about GDI engine conversion and they stopped talking when I mentioned 460. I just had a read around the subject and I can see several problems. You have to inject the LPG into the manifold (plenum) where the air goes in. You need to cool the petrol injectors (with petrol) and so have to burn petrol and gas at the same time. The DGI engines are a big leap in technology and complexity - (look at GDI on Wiki) in order to reduce fuel consumption and emissions so conversion will be tough. I see that there are some GDI conversions available - but not many.

It would be great to here if Leon thinks it will be possible to convert a 460 in the near future.

Bren

[brendangeorge]

So....am I missing something?

If LPG only produces 73% of the power, it takes MORE LPG to run......NOT that the car has less BHP?

so the injectors send more lpg in to compensate?

and, Brendan, if you WERE a 'tight' Yorkshire person, you'd be in a Micra? (-: Enjoy the cruising!

Hi Chris

I would be a very tight fit in a Micra - I am sure it would be a good laugh videoing me trying :)

You are correct about the car needing more LPG than petrol for the same power - 22MPG on petrol and best case 20 MPG on LPG.

This is because as you quote LPG only has 73% of the energy of LPG.

Bren

[ManicMark]

So....am I missing something?

If LPG only produces 73% of the power, it takes MORE LPG to run......NOT that the car has less BHP?

so the injectors send more lpg in to compensate?

and, Brendan, if you WERE a 'tight' Yorkshire person, you'd be in a Micra? (-: Enjoy the cruising!

Hi Chris

I would be a very tight fit in a Micra - I am sure it would be a good laugh videoing me trying :)

You are correct about the car needing more LPG than petrol for the same power - 22MPG on petrol and best case 20 MPG on LPG.

This is because ss you quote LPG only has 73% of the energy of LPG.

Bren

Hi LPG has a lower calorific value than petrol or diesel but also is higher octain & burns more efficiently . Surely this would make up some way for the lower energy? or am I missing something.

[brendangeorge]

So....am I missing something?

If LPG only produces 73% of the power, it takes MORE LPG to run......NOT that the car has less BHP?

so the injectors send more lpg in to compensate?

and, Brendan, if you WERE a 'tight' Yorkshire person, you'd be in a Micra? (-: Enjoy the cruising!

Hi Chris

I would be a very tight fit in a Micra - I am sure it would be a good laugh videoing me trying :)

You are correct about the car needing more LPG than petrol for the same power - 22MPG on petrol and best case 20 MPG on LPG.

This is because ss you quote LPG only has 73% of the energy of LPG.

Bren

Hi LPG has a lower calorific value than petrol or diesel but also is higher octain & burns more efficiently . Surely this would make up some way for the lower energy? or am I missing something.

Yep it is the energy (calorific) value that counts - there is no octane in LPG it is propane. Be careful about octane rating and RON (research octane number) they are used to define how resistant to knocking (pre-ignition) fuel is.

Bren

[ManicMark]

Ahh its the RON 103 or 105 I believe.

[brendangeorge]

Ahh its the RON 103 or 105 I believe.

Propane is 112 - I have seen 108 quoted for LPG.

I believe our LPG is propane.

Bren

[Profess LPG LTD]

Hello LOC.

I apologise for the delay in getting back to you.

We are extremely busy at present with the everyday running of our South Wales branch and the set up of our Chesterfield branch.

I will hope to have some spare time over the next couple of days to reply to your concerns.

I can inform you that Strange Strange and Gardner have taken the case and are happy to provide an impartial report regarding the matter.

Best regards

Leon

Profess LPG LTD.

[Profess LPG LTD]

Sorry for the delay.

Apart from their over priced LPG and other related nonsense I wish to put forward a few discrepancies with AMR Auto's publication.

Re: LPG PROBLEMS & Economy Drop posted by AMR Autos.

I would like to start off by stating that we, at Profess LPG LTD, use AC Stag Premium http://www.ac.com.pl/en/produkt/296/stag-300-premium or ISA2 http://www.ac.com.pl/en/produkt/362/stag-300-isa2 control units for their efficiency and reliability.

We also use the market leading Hana injectors and high performance reducers that can individually cope easily with 300BHP.

Using these kit combinations, whilst listening to our fully trained technicians and the feedback from our customers who own 1 or more of the 8,000+ vehicles that have been converted by ourselves, we can state that we have a MPG drop of between 2-15% between LPG and Petrol.

In our opinion if an installer can only obtain 15% or above, they need to go back to basics and get trained over the space of a year on an apprenticeship scheme, rather than buying a certificate from the factory or another installer for around £1500 and 2 days of training.

AMR complain about the guarantee that comes with the LPG conversion. I also complain about the standard of the guarantee that our competitors offer. They offer up to 3 years warranty (factory standard) on parts and labour but have a clause in the conditioning of the warranty which states that the warranty is invalidated if you have picked up dirty gas….. Dirty gas… Can you explain to me how you, the general public are able to determine whether the LPG that you are picking up from Morison’s or the local Country Wide distributor is dirty or clean? I mean it’s not a sheet of white paper. The only way possible to check whether you are subjected to ‘dirty gas’ is to open the filter after every fill up…

AMR Auto’s state this;

Make Sure: if you do decide to have your car converted to LPG that you ask the installer to give you a written Guarantee that their LPG Conversion, together with any associated equipment including any Flashlube or other type of Valve Protection Systems used are suitable for your vehicle and will not cause Valve Seat Recession, Burnt out Valves or Engine Damage whilst running on LPG, and that they will Pay in Full for any repair costs associated with the above. If they won't do this consider the risks, as repairs will cost more than the conversion in the first place, and the system will need to be removed to prevent the same thing happening again.

We want to ask why they would want to stipulate such nonsense. How on earth can they place the blame of Valve Seat Recession (VSR) on LPG alone and not include many aspects as to why it may happen on Petrol.
The most common cause of valve seat recession is in fact overheating of the engine. VSR is the erosion of the valve seat causing the valve to slowly sink deeper into the seat. It was a major issue for Leaded Petrol engines with soft valves. When they changed over to Unleaded the valves lost their protective lead coating and started to recede into its soft seat because of the intense heat (650C) and the constant hammering effect of the valves opening and closing left iron deposits to become micro-welded to the valve edge when closed. These micro-welds get torn off and are constantly used as an abrasive on the soft valve seat, digging deeper into the head over time. VSR is only a problem for the exhaust valve seats because they run at much higher temperatures compared to the intake valves.

I see some other minor issues within AMR’s statement that I would like to give my 2 pennies worth.

They state this;

1 litre of LPG weighs 0.67 Kilogram’s with a Calorific Value of 50.35 MJ/kg

1 litre of Petrol weighs 0.72 Kilogram’s with a Calorific Value of 48.00 MJ/kg

1 litre of Diesel weighs 0.832 Kilogram’s with a Calorific Value of 44.8 MJ/kg

But Wiki States this;

LPG has a typical specific calorific value of 46.1 MJ/kg compared with 42.5 MJ/kg for fuel oil and 43.5 MJ/kg for premium grade petrol (gasoline)

After serving the public with over 1.1million litres of LPG I can also state that 1 litre of LPG weighs 0.51 kilogram’s. Unless FloGas likes to give us approx. 15% more LPG……

The Vauxhall Zafira head that is shown in the photos with the valve seat recession has had known underlying faults from the get go. Google search for Zafira 1.8 EGR Valve faults. If the EGR Valve is stuck open the engine runs hotter and everyone knows what happens to engines that run hot…. Valves wear and burn out….

They also suffer with the breather to the cam cover building up condensation and we all know what happens to the quality of the oil when water contaminates it….

I will post some images tomorrow from the same type of vehicle which has suffered from valve seat recession and valve failure due to the EGR and water contamination.

It is funny to find the blame only exists whilst driving on
LPG….

That is our take on most of the article.

We will await a full report that is being undertaken by Strange Strange and Gardner to conclude our statement on any other related LPG issue.

Kind regards

Leon

Profess LPG LTD.

[Bluesman]

Sorry for the delay.

Apart from their over priced LPG and other related nonsense I wish to put forward a few discrepancies with AMR Auto's publication.

Re: LPG PROBLEMS & Economy Drop posted by AMR Autos.

I would like to start off by stating that we, at Profess LPG LTD, use AC Stag Premium http://www.ac.com.pl/en/produkt/296/stag-300-premium or ISA2 http://www.ac.com.pl/en/produkt/362/stag-300-isa2 control units for their efficiency and reliability.

We also use the market leading Hana injectors and high performance reducers that can individually cope easily with 300BHP.

Using these kit combinations, whilst listening to our fully trained technicians and the feedback from our customers who own 1 or more of the 8,000+ vehicles that have been converted by ourselves, we can state that we have a MPG drop of between 2-15% between LPG and Petrol.

In our opinion if an installer can only obtain 15% or above, they need to go back to basics and get trained over the space of a year on an apprenticeship scheme, rather than buying a certificate from the factory or another installer for around £1500 and 2 days of training.

AMR complain about the guarantee that comes with the LPG conversion. I also complain about the standard of the guarantee that our competitors offer. They offer up to 3 years warranty (factory standard) on parts and labour but have a clause in the conditioning of the warranty which states that the warranty is invalidated if you have picked up dirty gas….. Dirty gas… Can you explain to me how you, the general public are able to determine whether the LPG that you are picking up from Morison’s or the local Country Wide distributor is dirty or clean? I mean it’s not a sheet of white paper. The only way possible to check whether you are subjected to ‘dirty gas’ is to open the filter after every fill up…

AMR Auto’s state this;

Make Sure: if you do decide to have your car converted to LPG that you ask the installer to give you a written Guarantee that their LPG Conversion, together with any associated equipment including any Flashlube or other type of Valve Protection Systems used are suitable for your vehicle and will not cause Valve Seat Recession, Burnt out Valves or Engine Damage whilst running on LPG, and that they will Pay in Full for any repair costs associated with the above. If they won't do this consider the risks, as repairs will cost more than the conversion in the first place, and the system will need to be removed to prevent the same thing happening again.

We want to ask why they would want to stipulate such nonsense. How on earth can they place the blame of Valve Seat Recession (VSR) on LPG alone and not include many aspects as to why it may happen on Petrol.

The most common cause of valve seat recession is in fact overheating of the engine. VSR is the erosion of the valve seat causing the valve to slowly sink deeper into the seat. It was a major issue for Leaded Petrol engines with soft valves. When they changed over to Unleaded the valves lost their protective lead coating and started to recede into its soft seat because of the intense heat (650C) and the constant hammering effect of the valves opening and closing left iron deposits to become micro-welded to the valve edge when closed. These micro-welds get torn off and are constantly used as an abrasive on the soft valve seat, digging deeper into the head over time. VSR is only a problem for the exhaust valve seats because they run at much higher temperatures compared to the intake valves.

I see some other minor issues within AMR’s statement that I would like to give my 2 pennies worth.

They state this;

1 litre of LPG weighs 0.67 Kilogram’s with a Calorific Value of 50.35 MJ/kg

1 litre of Petrol weighs 0.72 Kilogram’s with a Calorific Value of 48.00 MJ/kg

1 litre of Diesel weighs 0.832 Kilogram’s with a Calorific Value of 44.8 MJ/kg

But Wiki States this;

LPG has a typical specific calorific value of 46.1 MJ/kg compared with 42.5 MJ/kg for fuel oil and 43.5 MJ/kg for premium grade petrol (gasoline)

After serving the public with over 1.1million litres of LPG I can also state that 1 litre of LPG weighs 0.51 kilogram’s. Unless FloGas likes to give us approx. 15% more LPG……

The Vauxhall Zafira head that is shown in the photos with the valve seat recession has had known underlying faults from the get go. Google search for Zafira 1.8 EGR Valve faults. If the EGR Valve is stuck open the engine runs hotter and everyone knows what happens to engines that run hot…. Valves wear and burn out….

They also suffer with the breather to the cam cover building up condensation and we all know what happens to the quality of the oil when water contaminates it….

I will post some images tomorrow from the same type of vehicle which has suffered from valve seat recession and valve failure due to the EGR and water contamination.

It is funny to find the blame only exists whilst driving on

LPG….

That is our take on most of the article.

We will await a full report that is being undertaken by Strange Strange and Gardner to conclude our statement on any other related LPG issue.

Kind regards

Leon

Profess LPG LTD.

Many thanks Leon. As I expected after using LPG for 16 years no surprises. Mike

[egolex]

37.64 miles Per equivalent cost per Gallon.

06 Ls 430 v8 4.3 automatic 6 speed tiptronic gearbox

66.62 Litres LPG =15.09 Imperial Gallons =458 KMS= 284.6 Miles./55.5 Euro = £47.19.

LPG @.80 Cent {Euro} per litre-.Petrol @ 1.60 per litre.

18.82 Miles per Gallon on LPG.= Half the price of Petrol.

Multiplied by 2 = equivalent to Petrol price,gives me 37.64 miles .

@155mph fuel consumption might be a little bit less ???

2013 Nissan Versa sedan

The more fuel-efficient sedan gets a smaller 1.6-liter 4-cylinder engine versus a 1.8 liter in the hatch. When paired with the continuously variable automatic transmission, the sedan returns 35 mpg combined.

[John N]

This thread has prompted me to check the economics of my conversion today.

Most of my driving is in town traffic, on petrol I get 20 mpg and on LPG I get 16 mpg. (Down 20% which is about right.) Equivalent to 4.396 miles/litre on petrol and 3.516 miles/litre on LPG, and my local fuel prices are 130.9 p for petrol and 60 p for LPG.

That means my fuel costs are 29.8 p per mile on petrol or 17.6 p per mile 0n LPG, making it 42% cheaper to use LPG.

I always thought the 50% savings claims were exagerated, but a 42% saving on todays petrol prices still makes a conversion worth while.

On the question of valve seat regression I had an incident with my previous LPG converted car, an S Class Merc. It had a slight judder on a light throttle which I thought may be due to the LPG conversion. The local LPG "expert" insisted I had the engine electronics checked independently at great expence. The report from the electronics "expert" was that the electronics were ok but the engine had terminal valve seat regression.

A free compression test at the local engine rebuild specialist showed there was nothing wrong with the valves and the engine was ok! In the end the problem was a worn flexible coupling on the drive shaft. But you have to ask how often valve seat regression is mis-diagnosed when a garage can't find the real fault?

John N

[Lexmanic]

On my recent trip to London from West Dorset driving hard/fast with a full load 4 adults, 1 child, buggy, electric scooter my LPG 98 LS 400 returned the equivilent petrol mileage of 37 MPG AND my LPG system was installed in 2002

[Profess LPG LTD]

This thread has prompted me to check the economics of my conversion today.

Most of my driving is in town traffic, on petrol I get 20 mpg and on LPG I get 16 mpg. (Down 20% which is about right.) Equivalent to 4.396 miles/litre on petrol and 3.516 miles/litre on LPG, and my local fuel prices are 130.9 p for petrol and 60 p for LPG.

That means my fuel costs are 29.8 p per mile on petrol or 17.6 p per mile 0n LPG, making it 42% cheaper to use LPG.

I always thought the 50% savings claims were exagerated, but a 42% saving on todays petrol prices still makes a conversion worth while.

On the question of valve seat regression I had an incident with my previous LPG converted car, an S Class Merc. It had a slight judder on a light throttle which I thought may be due to the LPG conversion. The local LPG "expert" insisted I had the engine electronics checked independently at great expence. The report from the electronics "expert" was that the electronics were ok but the engine had terminal valve seat regression.

A free compression test at the local engine rebuild specialist showed there was nothing wrong with the valves and the engine was ok! In the end the problem was a worn flexible coupling on the drive shaft. But you have to ask how often valve seat regression is mis-diagnosed when a garage can't find the real fault?

John N

Hello John N

We have had a similar experience with a Toyota Previa. After converting the vehicle, the customer went away but could not go over 3,000rpm.

We had no choice but to take it to a local Toyota *Expert*, who had diagnosed it to be the ECU and Gas related. After giving us a quote for over £1,200 we thought of obtaining a second opinion. In the meantime we had ordered the ECU from Eastern Europe for a mere £30. After installing the new ECU and obtaining a re programming from a local Auto Electrician (£125), the ECU didn't work. On the contrary it was in the exact same sorry state as the previous ECU.

We then asked the Auto Electrician to take a look and to give his opinion. 1 Coilpack later and we were kicking ourselves for not checking the basics first.

My question is, who on earth can determine that it has had a failed ECU when in fact it is a simple coil pack? What is worse in my opinion, is that they still call themselves *Experts*.

Regarding the Valves Take a look at these

This picture has been taken from a Vauxhall Zafira 1.8 that had suffered from a faulty EGR valve. The funny thing is that all Vauxhall engines suffer from these issues. Vauxhall themselves sell an EGR plate that completely removes the EGR valve. Yet these issues are instantly blamed on the LPG.

Best regards

Leon

Profess LPG LTD.

[brendangeorge]

This thread has prompted me to check the economics of my conversion today.

Most of my driving is in town traffic, on petrol I get 20 mpg and on LPG I get 16 mpg. (Down 20% which is about right.) Equivalent to 4.396 miles/litre on petrol and 3.516 miles/litre on LPG, and my local fuel prices are 130.9 p for petrol and 60 p for LPG.

That means my fuel costs are 29.8 p per mile on petrol or 17.6 p per mile 0n LPG, making it 42% cheaper to use LPG.

I always thought the 50% savings claims were exagerated, but a 42% saving on todays petrol prices still makes a conversion worth while.

On the question of valve seat regression I had an incident with my previous LPG converted car, an S Class Merc. It had a slight judder on a light throttle which I thought may be due to the LPG conversion. The local LPG "expert" insisted I had the engine electronics checked independently at great expence. The report from the electronics "expert" was that the electronics were ok but the engine had terminal valve seat regression.

A free compression test at the local engine rebuild specialist showed there was nothing wrong with the valves and the engine was ok! In the end the problem was a worn flexible coupling on the drive shaft. But you have to ask how often valve seat regression is mis-diagnosed when a garage can't find the real fault?

John N

You have nice low fuel prices John - in South Northamptonshire the best I can get is 73.9 for LPG and 136.9 for petrol - your figures are very very good because you have a price difference of 70.9p and I can only get 63p. When I was up North a couple of weeks ago I found Morrissons was about 65p and 60p LPG was at cash only establishments. I am very jealous of your prices :)

One challenge I find is that on very long trips LPG can vary in price by 20p - still cheaper than petrol but really annoying.

I am sure most people who use this site are smart enough to find out fuel prices - here is a site I use that does not require a log in and means you will receive no spam

http://www.ukd8.com/index.php

Bren

[Bluesman]

This thread has prompted me to check the economics of my conversion today.

Most of my driving is in town traffic, on petrol I get 20 mpg and on LPG I get 16 mpg. (Down 20% which is about right.) Equivalent to 4.396 miles/litre on petrol and 3.516 miles/litre on LPG, and my local fuel prices are 130.9 p for petrol and 60 p for LPG.

That means my fuel costs are 29.8 p per mile on petrol or 17.6 p per mile 0n LPG, making it 42% cheaper to use LPG.

I always thought the 50% savings claims were exagerated, but a 42% saving on todays petrol prices still makes a conversion worth while.

On the question of valve seat regression I had an incident with my previous LPG converted car, an S Class Merc. It had a slight judder on a light throttle which I thought may be due to the LPG conversion. The local LPG "expert" insisted I had the engine electronics checked independently at great expence. The report from the electronics "expert" was that the electronics were ok but the engine had terminal valve seat regression.

A free compression test at the local engine rebuild specialist showed there was nothing wrong with the valves and the engine was ok! In the end the problem was a worn flexible coupling on the drive shaft. But you have to ask how often valve seat regression is mis-diagnosed when a garage can't find the real fault?

John N

You have nice low fuel prices John - in South Northamptonshire the best I can get is 73.9 for LPG and 136.9 for petrol - your figures are very very good because you have a price difference of 70.9p and I can only get 63p. When I was up North a couple of weeks ago I found Morrissons was about 65p and 60p LPG was at cash only establishments. I am very jealous of your prices :)

One challenge I find is that on very long trips LPG can vary in price by 20p - still cheaper than petrol but really annoying.

I am sure most people who use this site are smart enough to find out fuel prices - here is a site I use that does not require a log in and means you will receive no spam

http://www.ukd8.com/index.php

Bren

I'm off to Ollerton in Nottinghamshire tomorrow from Hampshire via Market Bosworth on the way back so will do a mileage MPG check. I will of course play Spot The LS there and back. Mike

[John N]

This is the site I use to check the best LPG prices http://www.filllpg.co.uk/ but it does depend on the feedback from users and so it isn't always up to date.

It's also usefull to run the app on your mobile, it shows you the stations near you on a map, and I've had no problems with spam.

The predictions for future prices is that they will continue to fall. The increasing shale gas production in the USA is already reducing world demand for LPG and driving down the price.

John N

[brendangeorge]

If the price drops then see the tax go up :) I'm a sad old cynic.

Bren

[ManicMark]

If the price drops then see the tax go up :) I'm a sad old cynic.

Bren

The tax won't go up for the next few years & when it does it will only go up 1p per litre per year . Signed up agreement by the government as part of an eu green policy I believe. I have been using lpg for the last 7 years & the tax hasn't gone up yet.

Some petrol stations are greedy with their profit on it though if there is no near by competition.

[ManicMark]

On my near 1000 mile round trip to Germany this week & I was not hanging about 80 to 110 + 145 (only 5 miles) I returned an equivalent of 44 mpg my trip computer stated 27.5 for the trip.

[brendangeorge]

If the price drops then see the tax go up :) I'm a sad old cynic.

Bren

The tax won't go up for the next few years & when it does it will only go up 1p per litre per year . Signed up agreement by the government as part of an eu green policy I believe. I have been using lpg for the last 7 years & the tax hasn't gone up yet.

Some petrol stations are greedy with their profit on it though if there is no near by competition.

I hope you are right Mark - remember we are at the mercy of the politicians so trust is not always rewarded.

A little quiz - Q How can you tell when a used car sales man is lying? Ans When he is speaking. Q How can you tell when a politician is lying? Ans They are breathing.

I have been using LPG for quite a while now and even if the tax did go up a little it would still be worth it.

Great numbers from your German trip - I was able to open my 430 up, on an unrestricted road, over there once - good fun but there are too many others on the road to look out for and there is always some so and so who wants to go faster than you :) I got just past 145 for a bit and at that indicated speed I had a 5 MPH error according to a GPS.

Bren